Morlaf's page

Female, Aasimar (Heavenborn), Fighter (Phalanx Soldier).
with the odd level of Cleric thrown in here and there....

Name: Athena

Perhaps make it glamered armor so that you are still wearing the armor.

heh...

wow! Love Lorewarden but love your opinions on Athena with heavy armour. My char is a manifestation of her so you are correct about the armour. When she walks the streets of Athens exchanging philosophies she wears nothing but her white "toga". When she manifests in the middle of the battlefield she wears PHAT armour (not necessarily the heaviest as I will give her sick dex too).
thank you all!!

i can only find limited references online to "doru". i use d2-pfsrd to make my chars and cannot find it there. Furthermore the use of (Long~)Spears with the Phalanx Soldier I find more than dequate.....
Are there any fighter Archetypes with little or no armour? I can find them in Barbarian but Athena is anything but a barbarian!

You might alternately look up the doru as a weapon - it's a weighted spear which can be wielded one-handed as a martial or exotic weapon, doing 1d8 20/x2 damage if martial or 1d8 20/x3 if exotic. No special class or archetype required.

not found a lot about that. What i have found is not "canon" and would require a lot of GM cajoling......

Just keep in mind the extra abilities, you never know when one can save your bacon. I never really thought about Feather Tokens, until a Society Scenario where we got some, and we found creative uses for them, up to and including dropping a tree on a T-Rex

nice..... but later in life She will multiclass with Cleric. War and Knowledge domains ;-) Flavour, flavour, flavour! ;-)

Where do you see the waste? If it has some higher level abilities that don't seem to fit, multiclass into something like paladin or ranger. Or if you prefer, go into swashbuckler, where your newly one-handed spear suddenly works with the swashbuckler abilities for a fairly good mobile opponent.

I shouldn't worry too much about what I call.... "waste". Just specials that I would very rarely use or find effective. But that is immaterial. The flavour is perfect and also it gets me out of my comfort zone a little to try moves/feats I would not normally.

Advanced Player's Guide, fighter archtype Phalanx Soldier, 3rd level ability allows polearms and spears to be used one-handed.

Phalax Soldier is PERFECT!

Trying to build an Athena-type warrior-ess and struggling.

Primary annoyance comes from the stuff surrounding spear: 2-handed, simple, yet chuckable. You can chuck it at ppl. But Two-Handed i.e. you need two hands to wield it? You aint chucking this thing like a boulder with both hands over the head. But rather like a javelin. But two handed, but chuckable. The rules, as I understand them, are self-contradictory.

Secondly, despite all the crazy archetypes and numerous feats there is nothing that I can find that will allow you, even with some penalties, to use a Spear with one hand. Will have to settle for Short Spear which is both weak and not the image i want for my char.

Am I missing sommat obvious?

i see..... thanks. They DO seem a bit better now. Still a bit overpriced in my opinion, no biggie, though. Also, they are not small, as I assumed..... so moving on....

I wanted to play sommat small but unusual. I like Kobolds.... loads of options.... costs only 5, too. Why are Tengus so expensive? They get nothing mind blowing! Even orcs cost 8 which sounds reasonable. Am I missing something major about Tengus?

no i mean a point-based system.
I.e. Instead of experience to gain level i gain points. with them i can buy a stat, a feat, rage, the ability to cast magic, sneak attack, etc, etc.......

Hello.

I have been reading: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules
with great ebullience and gusto.
There might be, however, something I have missed.
Is there an alternative system where things are bought in a semi-quasi-mini-point-based, purchases-type alternative?

Thanks,
Morlaf

Morlaf wrote:

oh, you know this "Ragues are weak" mantra? Have you dudes seen the Knife Master archetype?? Did you not like it?!

I love Rogues, a lot, but they really are weak. "Knife Master" effectively just gives you d8s instead of d6s for your attacks. Means that a Knife Master core rogue has no obvious dex to damage, so you'll either be a strength based rogue (and thus extremely bad at Disable Device - no Trapfinding or dex, bad at stealth, sleight of hand, etc) or go dex and strength based, in which case, let's compare damage at level 6 to a base 2-handed barb:

5th level Knife Master rogue, on a full attack, with sneak attack applied, using Kukri, that are both +1, with something like double slice applied (about as good as you'll get):

2x(1d6 (kukri) + 3d8 (sneak) + 3 (16 STR seems as high as you'll be here) + 1 (enchantment)) damage = 2d6+6d8+8 = 42 average damage in a round, if they hit.

Greataxe barbarian, 23 STR (20 + belt + 4th level inherent) that is +1:

2d12+9 (STR) + 1 (enchant) + 6 (power attack) = 2d12+32 = 45 average damage. For less investment. In comparison, the rogue has 16 dex = +3 to hit, +4 from BaB, +1 magic weapon = two attacks at +6 to hit. The barbarian has +6 BaB, +1 weapon, +6 str = +13 to hit for the first, and +8 to hit for the second. So will hit more, for more damage, and doesn't need to be sneak-attacking. And lots of other ways to optimize - that's just a bog-standard one. For an APL=CR fight, the average AC at this level is 19, giving the rogue a 35% chance to hit, and an average damage of 15 points of damage. The barb has a 70% hit chance on the first and 45% on the second, for an average of 26 points of damage - nearly double the rogue. Fighters, Slayers, Melee Rangers, melee paladins are all similar to the barbarian. Looking at bow attacks, you'll be way higher than both of these (6th level ranger can have 4 attacks (1 base, 1 BaB, 1 many shot, one multishot) for around 1d8+6, probably more depending on the type of archer (bard=arcane strike,...

i think your mistake (in my opinion) started with the sentence:

The game is more.... SHOULD be more.....

Every group can play the game as they wish and with their own style, Morlaf. But many people (myself included) think that the characters must be useful on their own either inside and outside combat, and not require DM dependency to be on par with the rest of the party.

Knife master is a good archetype, but have the same problems as the basic rogue; low accuracy, low defense, too much dependency on the position of other parties members to land the sneaks attacks and low damage when sneak attack is not possible, wich is very usual.

I don't entirely agree.....

They're nice alternate classes, but none are inherently better than the other versions. It just depends on how you build the character.

I suppose, the new classes are better balanced for Organized play, like PFS, where combat is a large majority of the intended game.

The new rogue is more combat focused, with weapon finesse as a bonus starting feat.

The barbarian is easier to explain to new players and mostly unchanged in combat, but otherwise much worse in non-combat situations. I like the old version more.

And the new summoner is mostly just different. Forcing the eidolons to take subtypes grants a new thematic option that wasn't really part of the class before. Adds synergy with parties themed around certain deities or subtypes. I like the new one better, but I'm annoyed that the old archetypes don't all work with new class.

that phrase you used:

Guess i am just a bit lost and disillusioned by the whole "balance-damage-balance-damage" infatuation that thow whole of Pathfinder is embroiled in.....

No, the point is to make them easier to use out of the box and to streamline them. Each of the classes have varying success.

The unchained rogue is a flat upgrade across the board. The core rogue is the weakest class in the game, and unchained helps considerably. It's still a Tier 4 class, that is mostly outperformed in skills by investigators and bards, but it's not terrible.

The unchained Monk is a flat upgrade to the core monk. Several people don't like the low will save, but the fact is that unchained fixes several of the combat problems with the core monk that requires several archetypes and style feats to fix and made them part of the base class.

Unchained Barbarian is a side-grade. It has a little bit lower optimization ceiling, a little bit higher floor, and it stops barbarian sudden death syndrome. It is a downgrade for the the classic two-handed barbarian, but an upgrade for a two-weapon fighter barbarian.

The unchained summoner is a downgrade in power, but the original summoner was overpowered with a broken spell list.

oh, you know this "Ragues are weak" mantra? Have you dudes seen the Knife Master archetype?? Did you not like it?!

I find it fascinating how ppl's opinions can differ so much.
I find it fascinating that a product can be so flawed (in some ppl's eyes - not mine) that classes have to jigged and re-jigged again and again to gain some degree of "balance" (whatever the hell that is).

if a particular person in the party was SO much weaker he felt left out (despite best efforts to encourage in char play and team work) (and this could happen to any race/class combination) the GM just gave him an appropriate item.....

thanks guys.....

No, the point is to make them easier to use out of the box and to streamline them. Each of the classes have varying success.

The unchained rogue is a flat upgrade across the board. The core rogue is the weakest class in the game, and unchained helps considerably. It's still a Tier 4 class, that is mostly outperformed in skills by investigators and bards, but it's not terrible.

The unchained Monk is a flat upgrade to the core monk. Several people don't like the low will save, but the fact is that unchained fixes several of the combat problems with the core monk that requires several archetypes and style feats to fix and made them part of the base class.

Unchained Barbarian is a side-grade. It has a little bit lower optimization ceiling, a little bit higher floor, and it stops barbarian sudden death syndrome. It is a downgrade for the the classic two-handed barbarian, but an upgrade for a two-weapon fighter barbarian.

The unchained summoner is a downgrade in power, but the original summoner was overpowered with a broken spell list.

What is a Tier 4 Class? optimization ceiling? floor? barbarian sudden death syndrome?

Is the point of the Unchained Classes to compensate for the Core Classes apparently being too weak?

Is this seriously the case for these?

Research E6.

This will keep the toughness of environment alive.

What is E6? or P6? please?

what is P6? E6? E8? etc......

thank you again all for your contributions. Rummaging through the various boards I find other's have asked similar questions with interesting takes off every1. I'm also hoping to being back some good-old-maybe-forgotten important skills: Survival, Craft, Know(geography/nature) and the amazing skill: HEAL!

Morlaf wrote:

phantom1592 wrote:

Seems like most of my games I struggle to survive O.o

I'm currently playing a 2nd level Dhampir... with Toughness... who has 13 hps. He spends a LOT of time trying to stay alive.

a Dhampir what? Barbarian? or Sorcerer?

;-)

Level one Inquisitor... max hp and toughness getting him to 12.

second level Unarmed Fighter... rolled a 1. No Con to speak of, non-favored class. It was a heartbreak of a roll.

Especially fun when normal healing won't work... but on the plus side he has his very own wand of inflict light wounds that he doesn't have to share...

heh luxury! Wand? level 2? LUXURY!!! :-P

Seems like most of my games I struggle to survive O.o

I'm currently playing a 2nd level Dhampir... with Toughness... who has 13 hps. He spends a LOT of time trying to stay alive.

a Dhampir what? Barbarian? or Sorcerer?

The only thing I know of that touches on this was an idea of what basically amounts to having the PCs involved in a fantasy terrorist attack.

Start the session off with a more normal 'they walk into a bar' scene. Only, halfway through, they start hearing the explosions and cries of innocent.

The basic idea is that a group of mad mages have sent flying creatures over the town, dumping thousands of sheets of paper with exploding runes into the town square (particularly effective if there was a parade or festival going on).

Thus, the problem is simple- get out of there without blowing yourself up. Of course, you can't just close your eyes and stumble around, since someone else nearby might accidentally look and get you caught in the explosion.

Imagine risking dozen of 6d6. Every step could be your last. The sense of powerlessness and rage as you see innocent women and children caught in the blasts. It can make a nice start to a campaign since it makes the antagonist an immediate priority that gets the PC's immediate animosity and attention. The small sample of 'survival' before getting to any place that could lead to 'heroism' makes the latter all the sweeter.

that brief description you gave is utterly hideous..... sounds amazing!

I think this is something a lot of games are missing to one extent or the other is the danger factor. There is nothing that makes the value of a character shine is seeing the loss of another PC. Don't be afraid of it. But, make sure your players are OK with a possible TPK.

dude... is your name actually "TPK" ???? hahahahahaha

Talk to me a while, please, about sessions/campaigns/settings etc where the players (for at least the first 5 or so levels) are primarily attempting to SURVIVE.
Pitted against dinosaurs, cataclysms, ruthless ravagers, famine, etc.....
Have you run/played such a campaign? how did it go?

my main worry is in a normal campaign where ppl are after the usual (power, glory, fame, riches etc) if you fail - "oh well!"
where as if you fail at surviving you die!

Done correctly I think it might be fun, but I don't want it to decent into a whole party death on 1st session....

Morlaf wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

Morlaf wrote:

so that you can tell me, in your opinion what compensates for a drop of BAB from 1 to 3/4?

You can't make up for it unless you give them spellcasting or something similar to spellcasting. This is the point everyone else is trying to make. This is a game design issue.

The BAB is why you want to play a martial. With rare exception, 3/4 BAB is reserved for 6-level arcane spellcasters or 9-level divine spellcasters. By lowering a barbarian's BAB, you only encourage players to prefer spellcasters over martials. Since magic is supposed to be rare in your campaign, this will create the exact opposite effect you're trying to accomplish.

If you're determined to lower the barbarian's and other martial's BAB to 3/4, your options are:

A) Ban 6-level and 9-level spellcasters.
B) Completely rework all martial classes from scratch with a complete suite of class features comparable to spellcasting. This would require an insane amount of work and be very difficult to balance.

thanks for that - I see where you are coming from.

Do you not believe that a power (lets call it Warp Spasm for now) that works like an enhanced Rage that grants them increased str/con, an area affect damage, an extra attack, nat. armour, dam. red., fast heal, reach, size increase etc can ever compensate?

Well, if those Warp Spasm powers will be random, your 3/4 BAB Barbarian could end up with, say, darkvision, 10' reach, Fast Healing 5 and AoE fire damage attack ... which means that he still sucks at combat compared to any full BAB class.

This is a concern, indeed. some player-testing to iron out. not all aspects will be random. but I think something like this could work....

Morlaf wrote:

so that you can tell me, in your opinion what compensates for a drop of BAB from 1 to 3/4?

You can't make up for it unless you give them spellcasting or something similar to spellcasting. This is the point everyone else is trying to make. This is a game design issue.

The BAB is why you want to play a martial. With rare exception, 3/4 BAB is reserved for 6-level arcane spellcasters or 9-level divine spellcasters. By lowering a barbarian's BAB, you only encourage players to prefer spellcasters over martials. Since magic is supposed to be rare in your campaign, this will create the exact opposite effect you're trying to accomplish.

If you're determined to lower the barbarian's and other martial's BAB to 3/4, your options are:

A) Ban 6-level and 9-level spellcasters.
B) Completely rework all martial classes from scratch with a complete suite of class features comparable to spellcasting. This would require an insane amount of work and be very difficult to balance.

thanks for that - I see where you are coming from.

Morlaf wrote:

Yes, i want that to be the case.

PCs and NPC will, on occasion, have to get their hands dirty.

The problem is this again hits warriors, who rely on weapons, while casters don´t give a south end of a north-bound rat about that. Okay, that is a bit of an exaggeration, but the less you rely on weapon damage, the less you care about weapon breakage. This is less of an issue if you rule that masterwork weapons don't break, but from what I got about your setting masterwork weapons should be quite rare themselves.

I get the idea of making fighters the warriors of the warriors, but I think it works better by improving them rather than hitting all other warriors (paladins, barbarians, rangers, slayers etc), because that throws them off in direct competition with the next BAB bracket, and as I said quite a few times, those kids have some serious mojo on top of their BAB. You end up either screwing several classes or having to rework almost every class to match the newly changed ones.

Why not give the fighters something along the lines of +1 BAB every 5 leves, extra AC from armor training (since there are no or few heavy armors in that setting, the current one isn't worth much) and a few other goodies instead? That way barbs can get their fun new thing and still wreck face, while not be as good with weapons as fighters are.

"don´t give a south end of a north-bound rat"

love it!
stealing it!

Well, I do think the system works a lot better if fighters (and a few others) got their attack bonus even higher, to be honest. Besides, with the rules for fragile weapons, they are going to need it when they have to reach for a nearby big rock because their primary and secondary weapons just broke.

Yes, i want that to be the case.

Morlaf wrote:

Hello.

doing modification (aint we all!) to some classes and stuff for my own Stone-Age world/setting/campaign/settings.
a)I feel ONLY fighters should have a +1 BAB.
Barbarians have a 3/4 BAB like Clerics etc. what do you feel I should give them to compensate for this (I have my own thoughts but I'd love to see you ideas)
b) I feel Rage and the bonuses it grants should have a chaotic, unpredictable, uncontrollable element to them, not just the flat "+2 hit and damage" that we all quote. How would you introduce this to the class feature "Rage"?

Thanks,
Morlaf (The bringer of Chaos)

Full BAB is what defines a purely martial class. Cleric types simulate a warrior priest with their 3/4 BAB, but that's because they also have full spellcasting as a dominant feature.

Barbarians are a full bab class becuse they are trained to be competent warriors even when they're not foaming at the mouth. Your premise for making the change falls flat on it's face.

Make this change for Paladins and you turn into an essentially useless class when putting them up against enemies they can't smite.

Don't make this change for Paladins and making it for Barbarians only, is simply singling them out for reasons you can't back up.

Fighters do get their definition from both the extra amount of combat feats they get and the per level training in armor and weapons mastery. They remain the only class that can wear full armor at full speed without resort to magic.

Talk to me some more about Paladins please (my session will not have them, but quite a few ppl have said what you have): If you cannot smite ppl, Paladins are rubbish? is that what you are saying?

as for "singling out barbarians" this is not for vendetta reasons but rather reasons of ambiance and the vision that: "Fighters alone should get a +1 BAB - in my opinion!"

Morlaf wrote:

I've got NO intention of "selling" you my barbarians...

As I have only recently decided on the path I wish to follow I do not have the full facts yet. But the Barbarian can enter a Warp Spasm, while in Rage and he will get boring things like:
Darkvision, increased speed.... Nice-ish things like: extra attacks, extra str, natural armour.... and Epic things like: increased size, area affects, Damage reduction, Fast healing etc. These will be level dependant and random.
The player will choose Path of Surrender in which case he gets more stuff but unpredictable or the Path of Reigns: where he attempts to harness mother nature and gets fewer stuff but has a better chance of controlling them.

The part I bolded is you shooting yourself in the foot here. Because without explaining (or selling if you prefer) the changes you've made to the Barbarian in actual specific mechanical terms, we can't actually help you here. The part after the bold is what we want details on.

fair point.... sorry about the vagueness - it makes sense in my little head....

Morlaf wrote:

The druid's Wild Shape gives her some combat abilities.

These are significantly weaker than a standard fighter.
Compared to the barbarian I have in my little mind - they are totally lamentable.

The wild shape gives more than just combat abilities, however. It can give them mobility, special attacks, special senses, etc. It is also very long duration and does not debuff the character later, which you said you want to do for the barbarian. You also mentioned weapons and armor being fairly primitive, which makes wildshape even more valuable (since you can get several primary natural attacks at full BAB).

On its own, it might not be enough to eclipse the fighter, but it isn´t everything a druid can do. This is just one of the class features of a class that has a strong pet, full casting and other features. This is the competition your barbarian must contend with. I was asking for you to "sell me" on it so you can also visualize its strong points and compare them to those of its direct competitors - many of whom, as I mentioned, have level 6 or 9 casting and extra features. This is a huge deal, especially in a setting where technology and equipment are less developed.

If you have a more or less concrete table of what barbies get per level so we can actually give you feedback on THAT, I´d love to see it.

I shall.

No one ever said the wheels were square.

sorry; my bad.....

Morlaf wrote:

You clearly (Rysky and Captain Yesterday) did not read from the beginning

Yes we have actually.

Morlaf wrote:

because these questions have been asked and answered....

Only kinda sorta not really.

Morlaf wrote:

You came late,

It'd be rude to finish before my partner.

Morlaf wrote:

you responded without reading the previous posts

Again, incorrect.

Morlaf wrote:

and thought I've infected every other thread on all the forums I might as well post sommat here, too, right?

... dafuq? No, seriously, dafuq?

Morlaf wrote:

go on, tell me some more about your square wheels.......

Your square wheels actually. Which we can't. Because you won't tell us about them.

You keep saying they're going to get all kinds of [stuff], but you won't detail [stuff], and everytime you respond you say they're getting different [stuff].

cool.... thanks.....

You clearly (Rysky and Captain Yesterday) did not read from the beginning because these questions have been asked and answered....
You came late, you responded without reading the previous posts and thought I've infected every other thread on all the forums I might as well post sommat here, too, right?

go on, tell me some more about your square wheels.......

Ok, wow, seriously Dood?

You don't know where to start? That's what everyone else thought this thread was about and was for the most trying to help you. You'd at least notice that if you pulled your head out of your ass.

so....

if you gimme your email all attach a few files for you, but there are not for this thread. this thread is to spout abuse, right?

I think you're conflating the worth of your world to us. :-)

well, i had to google the world "conflate", so for that alone I thank you for your valuable contributions.....

Morlaf wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

Obviously you don't want feedback, I believe what you're looking for is "constructive compliments"

Or perhaps foolishly expecting ppl to stay on-topic?

That's kinda hard when you're being obtuse.

Being vague with simply saying you'll reduce the Barbarian's BaB and give them other stuff, it's not really possible to give actual feedback and not just opinions (though some posters have graciously done just that) when you don't lay out said other stuff for us to give actual feedback on.

Explain. EXACTLY. WHAT. You. Are. Doing.

Ppl have answered my post VERY early on without asking irrelevant questions. to them I was courteous and I grateful (see Mr. Charisma at the top and others). Others went off on bizarre tangents and asked the same questions over and over again, made assumptions which were not even hinted upon by myself and generally feel they should post a reply for the sake of doing it, rather than contributing. I have limited patience for them.

Fact is, Barbarians have now lost their +1 BAB and have gained NOVA abilities in flavour with a Feral, Slaine-like world.

I know inside you are dying, but it HAS happened.....

Obviously you don't want feedback, I believe what you're looking for is "constructive compliments"

Or perhaps foolishly expecting ppl to stay on-topic?

I have a wheel I reinvented, it's not round, and I haven't tried it out yet, but it's way better than that other wheel.

I never said it was ready - hence the request for ideas.....

Stop it, Morlaf, you are being so terribly... "condescending".....

@ Morlaf - You will often hear several classes mentioned as underpowers, and usually it is only classes with no or level 4 spellcasting. Conversely, all level 9 casters are seen as quite strong. This issue tends to emerge at medium levels and only gets more pronounced.

BTW, almost everything you mentioned as extra attacks, size etc is what a druid gets with wild shape. True, they start at level 4, but that isn't all that late. However, their bonuses are chosen by them, have long duration and do not cripple them later. That is just one of their features. If what your barbarian gets can match all of wild shape, the animal companion, all the druid features and, say, level 4 spellcasting, great. It would be a solid class. If not, well, you have something to work on in order to make it appealing for players.

The unchained rogue is an update of the rogue class in the Pathfinder unchained book. This book buffs rogues and monks, somewhat changes barbarians, and nerfs summoners.

The druid's Wild Shape gives her some combat abilities.

I personally found no significant balance issues with any of the Core/Base classes. I tend to run/play a more freeform game where the rules and the number-crunching is a necessary evil to which we succumb rarely. Not the purpose of the game. I try to stear the game thusly, discouraging lengthy diatribes on "a +1 here, a +1 there, here a +1, there a +1 everywhere a +1".
My success to this end fluctuates wildly. It also drives some players away. Some, however, seem to like it.......

Morlaf wrote:

As you ask, this is what i have decided:

Barb BAB = 3/4.
in my Caveman session only fighters have BAB = 1.
Barbarians get Rage for free which is a feat that any1 can have (Str and BAB pre-requisits exist).
But as an option they can enter a Warp Spasm (which will be called something else, so as to not further offend the creators of Slaine). This will grant further bonuses in combat (the specifics I shall not bore you with). Some the player will choose so as to allow Character Customisation. Others will be rolled randomly, as the Gift of Mother Nature attempting to protect its Chosen One is, in part, uncontrollable.
A round of Warp Spasm costs 2 (or more) rounds of Rage and at the end the Barbarian is left a lot worse off than simply "Fatigued".

There is a problem looking at this from a mechanical perspective. Medium BAB in pathfinder tends to go with a LOT of goodies. At the very least, every single feature that rogues and the like get. Even then, pre-unchained rogues and monks were bad enough that they had to be changed. Right now, if I remember correctly unchained rogues are the only non-magical class with medium BAB, and people tend to rate them fairly low. So yeah, for a combat class, medium BAB is kind of a huge deal. Classes that go with medium BAB and are seen as good (not OP) tend to have level 6 spells and then something extra (bardic mojo, eidolons, inquisitor tricks, etc).

You can tweak the game as you want, and I am not going to tell you you are WRONG and should NEVER do this. However, if you want to have a balanced barbarian class with medium BAB, you want what they get to compare well to everything a bard, inquisitor, hunter or shaman will get, spells included, and at least to all things an unchained rogue ever gets (I say at least, because the unchained rogue is sort of meh as well). Otherwise, barbarians will be unnecessarily weak in the game and a trap option for the players who want to try them - they will come in expecting to be cool and awesome...

I've heard it all now: Fighters under-powered, Barbarians under-powered, Rogues under-powered.... and that is just a few posts in this silly thread. point is, if you ask 100 ppl you will get 100 DIFFERENT opinions.

Are there spellcasters in your campaign?

Like I said, I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish.

Spellcasters: yes. Druids (druids) and Shamans (sorcerers). Clerics exists but they are an NPC which you should best try and keep in the good books of. Their power comes from having a congregation and hallowed location (temple/church/cave). Roaming about adventuring offers none of this. but it's nice to keep them friendly as they can VERY powerful.

Accomplish: A more primal feel. Cavemen. The whole world is called Savages of San Rith. Humans exist with dinosaurs, violent tectonic movements, volcanoes worshiped as gods, very little written form (mostly runes), very few large cities, all weapons are Fragile (with VERY few exceptions), little magic (At least what I call Vulgar Magic - i.e. in-your-face, flamboyant, chain-lightning type spells).

Pathfinder caters for all this VERY satisfactorily with few tweaks.

Morlaf wrote:

Thanks all - you've given me plenty to think about.

I will probably keep the BAB = 1 as it is so inextricably linked with the entire game mechanic that to change it I would have to basically design a whole new system. I will probably give them a flat penalty to hit while Raging and try to compensate with other stuff (have mentioned some of them already)

Just wanted to reference this coz it seems like some people missed it.

Morlaf, are you still thinking of changing the BAB or have you decided just to change rage powers etc?

As you ask, this is what i have decided:

How about dialing back on the condescending responses?

Oooookay, you don't want to nerf, you just want to "change" and keep them equal.

How are you editing Rangers? Paladins? Anti-Paladins? Cavaliers? Samurai? Gunslingers? Brawlers? Swashbucklers? Slayers? Bloodragers? UnMonk? Avenger Vigilante?

You're wanting to completely redo all these classes because you only think the Fighter should have Full BaB instead of just simply buffing the Fighter. Why?

sorry about the... "condescending responses" but when i ask sommat and say sommat i kinda hope that IF... IF you intend on answering you will read my question.

Go search the forums you will find VERY few responses of me because very little here interests me. But when i want to contribute I stay on topic and not ask same thing over and over again.....