John Pryor's page

LOL A couple of you tell me NPCs are *completely* different and then come back with a KAC of 12 or 13. So maybe I was off by 1. It didn't have to be a goblin, I was just naming a likely opponent for a lvl 1 PC. So, KAC around 12-13. Add +8 due to the Combat Maneuver rules, and the target grappling DC is 20-21. I'm at +4 in the example, so I have to roll a 16 or 17. I guess I understand the rules. Of course, if I just want to shoot him, I have at least +1 and he has KAC 12 of 13, so I only need an 11 or 12, at most (assuming I have no Dex bonus). It's hard for me to see why a PC would EVER use Grapple, which is a shame. I suppose you could take the Improved Combat Maneuver feat. But, still, it seems to me Paizo has set the difficulty too high. Just my 2 cents worth.

I'm looking at Grappling, and I'm wondering if I am understanding it correctly. Let's say I am a lvl 1 Soldier, with Base Attack 1 and another +3 from Str. I wish to grapple a goblin in Second Skin. Say he has a Dex 12. that gives KAC of 13. On page 246 it says to make a Combat Maneuver I make a melee attack against KAC +8. So that means I have to hit a 21 and I have +4 to do it: I can only grapple successfully on an 17 or better? Seriously? And I have to renew that each round? Or am I getting something wrong? If I'm understanding correctly Combat Maneuvers seem pretty useless. I would be quite happy to be proven wrong. I wrestled in high school, and I guarantee you I did not need the equivalent of a 17 to succeed (Ok, so a high school wrestler isn't wearing Second Skin, but I didn't have a Str of 16 either; you get my point.) I needed about a 12, and I was not an especially good wrestler. The reason I care about all this is that traditionally grappling has been a good way to neutralize an opponent without killing and it seems pretty futile in Starfinder.

Ok, here's an update. I've now played 4 mods with a Vesk Mystic (Healing). I'm using him as a combat medic. Granted that I have not played mid or high level, but this is what I'm seeing: I was wondering if healing is important, given the tech methods of healing. Healing using magic can be critical; tech healing seems pretty lame. I played up in one mod and even so managed to save a couple of characters from death by channeling healing. With appropriate gear, a Vesk makes a decent backup melee fighter. I played a mod with almost all non-fighter types and I became the frontline. it worked ok. Not sure it would work at high levels, but more on that in a moment. Mindthrust hits hard when it lands! Also, gear matters a lot. We had a first encounter, and I shined in that due to Share Language and Diplomacy. All in all, a very satisfactory character. I'm enjoying it. I went back and forth on what to take for 2nd level. After some thought, I took a level in Soldier (Blitz). For delaying my spellcasting 1 level I got access to Heavy Armor, Longarms, and Advanced Melee, all of which I wanted for my character concept. I think that's a fair deal. Oh, and I also picked up Engineering as a class skill and +4 Init and +10 speed, scoring big, as far as I am concerned. Well worth it, IMO. So, I am pleased. Thought I would offer my experience for anyone who is wondering about Mystic. On the negative side, the character is unimpressive in starship combat. I can be Captain (B-o-r-i-n-g!), a so-so Engineer, or a lousy Gunner. Overall, I personally find starship combat excruciatingly boring, but that's just my take. Your mileage may vary. In other news, I've played 1 mod as Envoy and 1 as Operative (Ghost). Envoy was less fun than I expected and Operative was more fun. Again, just my 2 cents' worth.

I haven't played yet, but I suspect Technomancer as some people are envisioning it, is going to have the same problem as casters in Pathfinder: Not enough spells per day. If you want to play a blaster caster in Pathfinder, it is possible, although not easy. The main problem is that you run out of spells. In one fight a meleer of say 5th level can hit 10-15 times for 30-50 DPper hit depending on build. The blaster caster, if not being careful, can easily expend pretty much ALL spells in that same fight. It is really hard to keep up a steady damage output and keep up with melee fighters. That is why most wizards and clerics in Pathfinder play other roles, such as Controller. ( And PLEASE, do not tell me about bouncing lightning bolt. It comes at 12th level, the last level of Society play, and you get 1 of them. BFD.) It appears to me that Technomancer will shine in integrating magic and technology, especially in hacking. I *think* Mystic will shine in information gathering and mind control/enchanter play. The question in my mind is how Saves and DCs will play out. in Pathfinder, there was a clear bias against casters in the ruleset that goes all the way back to Gary Gygax. I'm waiting to see if the same is true here. (If you're wondering what I'm talking about, there are more ways to fail to land a spell than there are to fail to land a sword blow, and, to make it worse, a good sword hit can get some damage through DR whereas a spell either succeeds or fails against SR.) I'm very curious to see how this plays out.

I'm looking at Empath or Overlord Connection. Both look good for gathering information and an enchanter kind of role. Probably in trouble against drones and robots, but I guess that's what small arms are for.

I have a question on the Shaman Fly feature. It says you can fly while in space. Everyone seems to assume that means outside in the void, but if I RAW, doesn't that mean the shaman could fly *inside* a spaceship? The spaceship is in space, not on a planet. If this is right, the ability to fly during combat within a spaceship could be interesting, at least until technology lets everyone do it.

I'm wondering if the OP kinda missed the point of the Envoy. There was discussion of healing and combat. It seems to me that the Envoy will shine in non-combat situations, acting as Face and Skill Monkey. I haven't played yet but I've looked at some builds, and it appears you can get some significant skill strengths. In combat, Get 'Im looks useful. So does Bluff / Improved Feint feat and then the Envoy Bluff bonuses. It seems to me the Envoy won't be a heavy damage dealer but will be VERY useful. It's hard to tell from just reading the rule-book, but my impression is that skills are going to be more important than in PathFinder and damage dealing may be less; technology appears to somewhat level the ability of classes to do damage. As I said, I haven't played it yet, but that's the way it looks to me; I'm anxious to try playing an Envoy.

I've played a lot of PathFinder and D&D and I typically play clerics. I'm looking at the Mystic and I want to like it, but I can't get a feel for it and I'm wondering what it's like in play. In PathFinder, clerics frequently take the Face role, sometimes the Skill Monkey, and frequently act as Controllers in combat. In the Mystic write-up, there is the option to go Face, due to class skills. But for some reason the iconic comes from a race with -2 CHA!! Controller does not seem to be an option; there don't seem to be many controller spells. So, is Mystic just a healbot? Is a healbot needed in a universe with technological healing? What is the Mystic *for* in a party? With all the different flavors, it's clear a lot of thought was put into it, but the traditional roles don't seem to work. Any clarification, especially based on play experience, would be GREATLY appreciated.

My existing character is LN. Some good suggestions. Ok, I'll withdraw my initial criticisms and wait to see how things go. Thanks!

I appreciate the discussion and the chance to work through a build, new vs old.

FLite, good points. Some of the abilities you refer to kick in at lvl 12 or higher. Since I am a Society player capped at lvl 12, lvl 12 and higher is of little interest to me personally. But it's still a fair point.

Well, I haven't tried re-speccing yet, but here's my existing build for a Level 5 scout style Eidolon:

Alignment LN

Serpentine, Small, Climb, Tail, Tail Slap (1d4), Bite (1d4), Reach (Bite)
Skilled Stealth, Skilled Perception, Scent, Limbs(Arms), Skilled Disable Device.

Feats: Alertness, Uncanny Alertness
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11

Attack +5, Fort +2, Reflex +9, Will +4, AC 22, Init +5, HP 26

Skills:
Disable Device, 4 ranks, +19
Perception, 4 ranks, +18
Sense Motive, 2 Ranks, +8
Stealth, 4 ranks, +24
Survival, 2 ranks, +10

Obviously, not spec'd for combat. Great for scouting, though and for tracking. Summoner is Human, with Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning, and Improved Initiative. I bought a small sized MW Thieve's tools and carry it for Eidolon to use

I haven't tried re-spec'ing. Hmmm... Maybe not as bad as it first appeared:
On a quick read, I see that I could have 4 evolutions in Unchained, and 16 Skills, so I could retain the 3 Skilled evolutions and scent. I could have the same skill ranks.

If I'm reading correctly, then, we would have Base stats of
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11. Because of Level bonus, add +2 to Str and Dex. Good Fort save and Will save, Poor Ref save (for a scout?).

So I guess the big difference is in ability scores for my build. 20 Dex vs 14. Also biped vs Serpentine

Eidolon has to have be within 1 step of alignment of summoner.

Hi. Coming in a little late, but I've actually read the Summoner in Unchained. The previous poster made what I think is a key point, and it's being shrugged off. It is true, I believe, that most summoners design their Eidolons as beatstick damage dealers. And the fixes in Unchained are designed to bring those back into line. I can understand the reasoning behind that. Some of us, though, went other routes. There is advice on the web that I followed to make my eidolon more or less a rogue/scout. (Tracking, scent,... things like that). For fighting I drop the eidolon and use summon monster SLA. It has been a LOT of fun to play. After reading Unchained Summoner a couple of times, my conclusion is that it doesn't look like fun. All the eidolons are pretty much the same and they are all slanted toward combat. There are some slight differences in resistances, but otherwise pretty much the same. Oh, and there are mandatory alignments, which FURTHER restricts the eidolon you can have. To those who are saying you don't have to use Unchained rules, that's true for a home game, but not for Society play. My understanding is that you have to use the Unchained version in Society, except for those Summoners that are grandfathered in. So, the poster who said that the designers are forcing us into one vision of the eidolon is, in my opinion, correct. I understand the desire to not have summoners be overpowered and that's not unreasonable. But let's also remember that classes are supposed to be fun to play. If all eidolons are essentially the same, I don't think much of anybody will play them. Too boring. If eidolons are going to be outsiders, let's have some options for INT build, CHA build, WIS build, DEX build. Just my 2 cents worth.

Hmmmm.... Not sure I've seen the principle of limiting variation anywhere; do you have a source reference? I'll grant that that makes the life of a DM easier. Given the number of variations that are possible in classes, for example, my first reaction is I'm not sure such a thing as a variation limiting principle applies. Regardless, I think RAW trumps it. The other principle that I think should apply, although I've never seen it anywhere, is that every spell should have at least some usability/applicability. If Summon Minor is limited to bats, lizards, monkeys, rats, ravens, toads, or weasels, off the top of my head I cannot conceive of any use anyone would ever have for the spell. Just a vanity spell, so you can say Ta Dah, watch my monkeys?? Why bother to publish it? I also think you would see what you see with any of the Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spells: within a few months everyone will summon exactly the same 2-3 creatures, determined by effectiveness, and then the variation vanishes.

It seems to me that under the RAW concept, skunks should be allowed. The list in the spell description is preceded by "such as" which clearly makes them examples rather than the exclusive list. To look at it another way, summoning a group of skunks, is, I would argue, on a par with color spray. It has longer range than color spray and is disabling, but not as badly as a knockout spell like color spray, and the save DC is only 11. I will admit that I'm not the DM, but IMO forbidding skunks is unreasonably restrictive. I can see it would be annoying to a DM to have a group of say goblins nauseated and sickened, but truly, that's no worse than having them knocked out by color spray. Just my 2 cents' worth.

I haven't played a shaman yet or seen one played. I'm curious about the role of the shaman and how much you miss being able to swap out spells for cures? As described, your experience seems to see the shaman as primarily a combat character, is that right? I like some of the abilities as I understand them from reading the class, but I think I would seriously miss being able to swap and use cure spells on the fly. Any thoughts?

Clearly, you can mold the cleric and take on other roles than support or healing. And if you do that for flavor and roleplay, there's kinda nothing more to say. My take, though, is if you want to play a divine warrior, play a paladin or ranger and if you want to play a divine caster with a lot of offensive capability, play a druid. My point, though, is more from a party perspective. I have to ask what does the character bring? In the groups I play in, fighters are routinely doing 30-50 points of damage each and every round by level 5 or so. (IMO fighters are overpowered because they dish it out round after round and spellcasters quickly run out of spells, but no one agrees with me. LOL). if you play a mixed class with divine casting and fighter, you are going to lag in both compared to a pure class cleric or fighter. You also run into stat problems since you basically need all 5 stats except Int to play this type of character. That may well be fun for you. It may or may not be good for a party. If you bring a divine fighter that lags on damage and also does not have enough heals, I would ask why the party wants the character to come along? If purely for roleplay, again, there is no more to say. If you play with min/maxers, though, as I often do, you'd best bring something that makes you stand out as useful. For a cleric, with limited offensive spells and few skillpoints, that something is heals and channels. Again, if we're talking pure roleplay, all bets are off.

I mostly play clerics and have for maybe 15 years. IMO, the OP is missing the point, and a lot of people don't really understand the complexity of clerics. Clerics are not intended to be major damage dealers. If you want to be the biggest, baddest DPS, take another class, and tell the other characters to find their own solutions to healing. Yes, you can tweak a cleric to do pretty substantial damage, but I would ask, why bother? If simply for roleplay, then, by all means, go for it. The reason you play this game is to have fun, remember?

Now, let me tell you what I like about playing a cleric: 1) When I go to a table and say I'm a cleric, no one EVER says, Uh sorry, we already have 3 clerics, could you maybe bring a ranger? I am ALWAYS welcome. When I introduce my toon, I always say, "Just remember, your job is to keep the cleric alive and my job is to keep you all alive. Deal?" My clerics never die unless it's tpk or a really unlucky roll. 2) Clerics have a lot of control spells. I enjoy playing a cleric who helps the party by controlling the battlefield. Careful choice of domains helps here. It's fairly common for me to do something that wins the battle. 3) Channeling is awesome. Sure, you can't use it in every fight, but get a bunch of undead or outsiders coming at me and I can channel the snot out of them with no friendly fire accidents. If I take Sun and/or Glory domains, DMs hardly bother playing out fights with undead, I kill them so fast. 4) The people I play with are good at tactics. I don't usually have to do a lot of healing during battle, but I am there to do it if needed. This allows me to focus on control and support actions.

There are times when it is difficult to get across the battlefield to heal a character that is down or almost down. Sometimes I channel. Occasionally, if my chances of dying are high, I will let the character die and do my best to bring them back later, and my group understands that there is no benefit to my dying and possibly causing a tpk to save one character.

All in all, I like the class. It has a lot to offer. But you have to enjoy the support role or don't bother playing a cleric. Just my 2 cents' worth.

Maybe I'm a purist, but I've played a lot of clerics and here's my take: A cleric is not intended to be a heavy duty melee fighter. You can certainly tweak your cleric to be that way if you want, but I would ask, if that's what you want to play, why not play Paladin? It's a pretty good fighter and has some healing. The problem is that your cleric will get outstripped quite quickly by other damage dealers, especially the fighter and barbarian. At low levels the cleric can run with the heavy armor guys for a few levels if you take Medium armor and some Dex, but beyond about level 5 or 6, the other guys start to pull away. If you're worried about defense (and I will freely admit I am a pretty defensive player), my advice is to keep a reasonable Dex, maybe 14. Go with a 16 Wis and 16 Cha if you can swing it. Then for defense, you have Dex to your AC, you can position yourself at the outer edge of the fight, you can heal yourself if things go sideways, and you can channel to heal. This should be enough defense to take you up to level 10 or so. If you're playing at levels much higher than that, your mileage may vary. I play Society games so we don't go much higher. I personally have found cleric has oodles of defense, but it is a different defense than fighters use. Also, keep in mind that the iconic cleric does not do a lot of dps. If you want to generate high dps, play a different class and be a happy player instead of trying to bend the cleric class. There are exceptions. I LOVE channeling. In the right circumstances I can obliterate hordes of undead or outsiders and never have to worry about friendly fire deaths like a Wiz has to with fireball. Just my opinion. YMMV.

I'm not sure I disagree. But really, that's a pretty minor impact and you get some pretty nice spells to offset it.

After reading all the posts, I guess what it comes down to for me is that I'm puzzled by what the developers intended for this class. The range in impact of the curses is huge. If you take Deaf, you basically lose all NPC and PC interaction; that's a HUGE impact on the game. If you take Clouded Vision there is a big impact during fights because you can't attack anything at range and can't even see it; this affects weapon choice, spell choice, tactics, and, quite frankly, your chance of surviving an encounter. Most of the other curses seem to me to have a smaller impact than Deaf or Clouded Vision. Then we come to Haunted, and the impact is, wait for it, moving things around on a table or causing things you drop (and how often does THAT happen?)to be 10 feet away?? I just don't see any balance at all in the variations of this class. I don't understand the thinking.

I do understand the idea of having a class that takes a penalty in order to get a benefit. That's a lot of fun from a flavor perspective. If there was a net zero impact where the penalty and the benefit balanced, I wouldn't have any problem. I just don't think the impact of the curses or the benefits have been well thought out or balanced. I wasn't part of the test team. It might be interesting to go back and read the feedback.

As one of the other posters said, no other class has to take a similar penalty to get the class benefits. What that means to me is that the benefits should be more significant than the benefits other classes get if we have to take a curse, and I just don't think most of them are that big.

I do like the flavor. I just wish there were some consistency and balance of penalty and benefit.

Well, I agree in concept but not necessarily in detail. I think that Deaf is way too much a hindrance. But take, for example, Clouded Vision, which I and several other players I've gamed with have taken. At low levels you can't see anything beyond 30 feet. This has major implications for fighting. No long range spells or range weapon attacks since you can't see your opponents. Frequently have to delay on initiative because you can't see what's coming at you. Plus the small, flavor things like getting lost because the party has moved beyond your vision before you get a chance to act. It's a pretty serious hindrance. At higher levels your darkvision extends to 60 feet, which reduces but does not eliminate the problems and at higher levels you get the blind sense abilities which also help mitigate. Imo the benefits are minor and the hindrance can be pretty serious. In a recent mod, for example, I couldn't see the ghouls coming and they were upon me before I could get off a useful spell. I went down but luckily did not die thanks to other characters. I took this curse for flavor and I've enjoyed playing it, but make no mistake, it is a serious hindrance.

As another example, we have a guy who took Tongues or whatever that curse is called. (Can't remember the name). He travels with another character who took the language so they are able to communicate, even at low levels. The rest of us, however, don't know what he's saying and cannot easily communicate with him during a fight. That's a pretty serious hindrance, particularly for this player who is very tactical. At high levels he'll get the effect of the Tongues spell which is a significant benefit. There needs to be a significant negative offset.

So now, let's look at haunted as written. You have a problem if you drop things, which pretty much never happens. When's the last time you had someone affected by that? Only case I can think of offhand is if you get knocked unconscious and then wake up and have to pick up your weapon. It happens, but not often. Possibly if you switch weapons by dropping one. Pulling gear out takes longer. That's a more serious hindrance, but not very serious compared to clouded vision, imo.

Keep in mind that these are supposed to be curses, at least from a flavor perspective. Perhaps not "accursed" as you note, but still significant. There are beneficial offsets. So the haunted character gets Mage Hand, which can be very useful in the right circumstances and offsets the problem of dropping things. That's pretty much balanced imo. At higher levels, though, Telekinesis is a signficant benefit. If you're clever you can do some serious damage with that ability.

I think the DM needs to do something a bit more ominous than just letting the character be twitchy and talk to people who aren't there. I felt the poster who shifted the odds on random attacks went too far, but was in the right direction. In the example of 5 characters, I would recommend rolling a d6 and on a 5 or 6 attacking the haunted character, 1-4 the other characters. You need to do something more than just let the player use it for flavor. I like the flavor aspects, but I really feel there is more to the oracle's curse than that.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

Good post. I thought it over and realized you were right and I was wrong. I was thinking about this from the player's perspective. An honest player will impose restrictions like blind, deaf, or tongues on himself, but the DM has to be prepared to step in and impose them if the player does not. The curse needs to cause the player problems because each curse has offsetting benefits that the player should not get for free.

The case of haunted is trickier than some of the others. The player could play twitchy, as I described, but, after thinking it over, I agree that the DM should apply some problems for the player, and the methods you suggested seem fairly reasonable. I would try to stay away from save or die type actions, but wouldn't have a problem with that character getting attacked more often, save or falling down stairs, and so forth.

Having the haunted character attacked on a random 5-8 vs the rest of the party on a 1-4 means the haunted character gets half of the random attacks. That might make it hard to keep the character alive. I'm not sure that's unfair, but it's enough to make me think long and hard before taking the haunted curse.

FWIW

Well, I'm with you on this up to a point. Referring to your example, Heavenly Harry blasts them, two of 3 fail and are treated as 2 HD for calculating the effect of Color Spray on them (duration, type of effect, and so forth). However, imo, they are not 2 HD when you cast the next spell. You have to start over again; there's no lasting effect that reduces them to 2 HD. That's point one. Moving on...

In your wording, you said hypnotism. I'm going to assume you meant Hypnotic Pattern (which is a different spell) since that's what we were talking about previously. I don't have my books in front of me, but IIRC a 2HD creature who is affected by Color Spray is blind for some period of time. Hypnotic Pattern is not going to work on these 2 coppahs while they're blind.

This then becomes a very interesting example to me. So, there are 3 coppahs, 2 of which are now blind. You cast Hypnotic Pattern. Two of the coppahs cannot be affected by the spell since they are blind, so does that mean the spell automatically targets the 3rd coppah? Or do I still have to affect the nearest targets first, subtracting HD from my pool, even though they cannot possibly be affected, before I can tell if the 3rd guy has to save? My head is beginning to hurt, but surely this has been ruled upon at some time in the past since it really is not dependent upon whether or not you have the revelation. This is purely a blind target vs Hypnotic Pattern question.

In either case, the example you provided doesn't get to the question of whether the revelation affects the pool of HD you have for determining how many targets may be affected when you cast Hypnotic Pattern.

Not meaning to be a PITA here. Just trying to understand, so I can gently steer my GM.

Just came across this thread and maybe I'm chiming in too late, but here goes. It seems to me that the curses are more for player flavor than requirements of the DM. So I, for example, have an oracle with clouded vision. I keep reminding people that I can't see what they're talking about and I don't target anything farther than 30 feet away. I get lost when chasing opponents because they are out of sight. I also sometimes lose my party during a chase scene. Which can be aproblem, but I have fun with it.

As for the haunted curse, I haven't played it (I think that restriction on pulling gear could be a serious problem for me.) I think if I did, I would play the character as twitchy, reacting to things that no one else can see. I'd describe the character as having hair moving to a breeze no one else feels. Stuff like that. I wouldn't expect the DM to do much of anything. DM doesn't have to do anything with lame, clouded vision, deaf, etc, so I don't think there should be an obligation on you for haunted. Of course if you WANT to spice things up, I'd say, go for it whenever you're in the mood. Move stuff around in the pack, bring the occasional spoiled meal, spill the wine flask. Have the latrine back up on the character. Have the character trip down stairs once in awhile for say 1 point of subdual. Things like that.

FWIW.

I've played an oracle with the Heavens mystery and clouded vision, but only for 3 PFS mods. As others have said, there's a LOT of opportunity for flavor and roleplay. I started with the female iconic oracle due to circumstances and then decided to tweak her to suit myself and continued with her. She has an 18 Cha. My tag line is "I don't see well, but I look GOOD!"

I got a Harrow deck from Paizo and once I understand it a bit better I plan to bring it to the gaming table for flavor.

I can't say much about higher levels, but my impression is that oracles are lacking in offensive spells and aren't really suited for dps, so if you were planning to play a blaster, not a good choice. There just aren't very many offensive cleric spells. It seems to me the role is still primarily healer, with a lot of NPC interaction thrown in (because of Cha and skill points) and some great utility in specific situations. I would be interested to hear what other folks see as the oracle's role and usefulness.

I do know someone who plays an oracle with Battle mystery and clouded vision. He plays him as a meleer and seems to have fun.

The clouded vision is fun from a flavor perspective; the big drawback is you don't get a chance for ranged attacks until opponent gets pretty close. The haunted curse looks like a blast, but I'm planning to use a lot of wands and I can't afford a whole action to pull one out. My impression is that Life is very strong for healing and Flame is very strong offensively, but I haven't played either one. Bones is too creepy for my taste, ymmv. Wind and Heavens are very strong at low levels; not sure about higher levels.

One thing that bugs me is that most (all?) of the mysteries offer an armor revelation which is essentially useless for Oracle, which is an armor-wearing class, since it doesn't stack. Not sure what the developers were thinking. I suppose if you're on a spy mission or wake up naked chained to a wall it would be ok. shrug. Still seems like a waste of a revelation to me.

FWIW.

John

I haven't discussed this with my local GMs, who are VERY restrictive, but I see hypnotic pattern working along the lines in your example. I'd really like to hear others weigh in on this. So here's an example similar to yours: Your Cha mod is +4. You cast Hypnotic Pattern for 8 HD at 2 6HD opponents. Without the revelation, you can affect only one opponent, since you'd need 12 HD to affect both. With the revelation, you affect the first one and, for the sake of argument, he fails. 6-4=2HD consumed from your 8, leaving 6 HD. You now have a chance to affect the second opponent. That is a little odd, but it's the only interpretation I've come up with that seems to make sense to me. Basically, it extends the impact of the spell a bit without, imo, making it overpowering. (Unlike the impact on Color Spray, which becomes SERIOUSLY powerful at low levels)Otherwise, so far as I can tell, the revelation has no impact on Hypnotic Pattern that I can see.

Has anybody played with this revelation and Hypnotic Pattern and gotten a GM ruling? I'm very curious how a GM would treat it.

And, to the person who accused me of thread necromancy, all I can say is, some people found benefit in the resurrection, so neener neener neener. :D

Sorry. Didn't notice the date.

On the other hand, like any other necromancy, it isn't necessarily evil; I would argue that this was at least neutral. lol

The levitate effect imo is very badly written. It says you "can" hover, not that you HAVE to and it doesn't put a time limit on the effect. I could argue that this implies you can move horizontally since it is an unending effect, but the GMs I know look at the word "hover" and that's the end of the conversation.

I'll admit I'm looking for the opportunity to fling a grappling hook on a boat and waterski behind it. lol

I'd also like to see the feather fall interpretation spelled out. I don't think my GMs will buy that argument since it is not explicitly stated.

I would love to see a FAQ that clarifies what is intended here.

Maybe it's me, but the way I interpret Aweome Display is much more restrictive: It says "Each creature AFFECTED BY your illusion..." What that means to me is that the opponent has to fail the Save and then once they have failed you subtact your Cha mod from their hit dice to determine the effect they suffer. So, for example, I cast Color Spray at a group of lvl 5s. Each makes a saving throw. Those who fail are treated as lvl 1 for determining the effect, since my Cha mod is +4. Na general lowering of hit dice and not - and this is important - a lowering of hit dice BEFORE they roll the save. If interpreted this way, it's very powerful at low levels, but I'm not so sure it is powerful at high levels.

The other revelations are mostly meh imo. Coat of Many Stars is useless since you can wear armor anyway. I can't understand why they bothered to include it. Dweller in Darkness has potential but can only ever be used once per day in PathFinder society mods, capped at lvl 12. Guiding Star is useless except in unusual circumstances. Interstellar Void is ok, but once per day on one target. Lure of Heavens would be really nice if you could walk rather than hover at 5th; as a hover, it's almost useless imo. At least with levitate you could go up or down; this merely lets you stand there. It MAY offer a feather fall effect, although that is not clearly written and interpretation will vary from GM to GM. Mantle of Moonlight? Talk about situational! Spray of Stars is ok, but underpowered, imo.

In summary, it seems to me this this oracle mystery leads to a gear-oriented character (because relatively few spells) that does very well in specific situations and meh otherwise. A lot of flavor and interesting roleplaying potential, but I'm not sure it remains on par powerwise.

It seems to me that the strong oracles are Flame (great offensive spells and some defenses, Flame Form could be very useful), Life (channeling plus some very strong healing buffs) and Wind (invis, lightning breath weapon, Wings of Air)

Nonetheless, I've decided to play an oracle of the heavens focusing on illusion and enchantment. More of a support character that is strong in npc interaction, with some controller aspects (cause fear, command, darkness, obscuring mist, ...) I'm curious to see how it plays out.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

<snip>
The group did not discuss much before making their characters, but they all knew each other's plans: thief running guild, rogue going assassin, a pair of bar-brawling/alcoholic barbarians, and the paladin who hired them all as mercenaries.
<snip>

Well, there's the true source of your problem. You've got a paladin (and what paladin is CG??) hiring a bunch of people that, by all reasonable standards, he couldn't stand to be with. Your players seem to want to be chaotic and/or evil. Playing a paladin with that bunch is just looking for trouble. That group of choices for characters needed to be challenged by the DM, because it is trouble waiting to happen. Some people (including me) might play the paladin for the roleplaying challenge, but clearly this group cannot work together for long and the scenario played out in a predictable way. By the way, I enjoy playing a paladin, but I've found that as both player and character you do have to scope out the other players and characters to determine whether you're going to be able to stay with them. Paladins can be challenging (and that's where the fun is!)

On a side note, there's been a lot of stuff tossed out in this discussion about whether the act was evil and about lawfulness. I'd like to remind people that, unlike the real world, in D&D good vs evil and lawfulness vs chaos are easily determined and are essentially absolute. Detect Evil either pings or it doesn't. Same with Detect Law, etc. You as DM have to make the decision and the party members and society have to react to it.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

Sorry. I'm at work and don't have my mods. I probably couldn't figure it out anyway since I've played more or less all of the PFS mods, something like 40 of them. They kinda blend together. I'll take a look when I get home to see if I can narrow it down.

John Pryor wrote:

In a somewhat related thought, I'd like to bring up what I feel is an issue with some of the PathFinder Society mods. I understand that the campaign is intended to be somewhat noir and morality can intentionally be fluid, even though evil characters are not permitted in PFS. However, there have been at least 2 mods I've played in as a paladin that basically started with the Venture Captain saying so and so hasn't turned in his report, so go to his house and beat the crap out of him.

If I might ask, what were these mods? I've only played a Couple (Curse of the Crimson Throne and The Thrice dammed prince) were they one shots or just the start of set? I mean I get being frustrated with just having to go and kick down the door, knocking usually works, but there has to be a bit of suspension of disbelief for D&D I mean most of the book covers combat, but I get what your saying. Just wanted to know.

"...I suspect that this penalty does not apply since levitate also prevents lateral movement while in the air (unless using a wall or ceiling at half speed) when Lure of the Heavens clearly implies the ability to move laterally."

My question relates to the last part of this post. The description of Lure of Heaven says "At 5th level, you can hover up to 6 inches above the ground or even above liquid surfaces, as if levitating. " It seems to me that this revelation is intended to be a movement benefit. However, per the Levitation spell, levitating 6 inches above the ground does not grant you the ability to *walk* six inches above the ground; the Levitation spell simply moves you up or down and any lateral movement requires some other means. I'm trying to decide whether or not to take this revelation and it makes a huge difference to me whether I would simply levitate in place and have to use a wall or rope or something to pull myself along, or whether I would be able to walk while being 6 inches above the ground. Being able to walk above water or whatever would be both cool and useful, but standing in place 6 inches above the ground would be of very minor and very situational benefit. How have people ruled on this?

I agree with many of the other posters that the paladin acted basically correctly in the bar scenario you laid out. The rogue/assassins need to go on the run and, imo, either need to be reformed or need to retire from the game, unless you want to go to an evil campaign, in which case the paladin should retire. Your players brought this on themselves and you allowed it to happen. Now you ahve to fix it, preferably without ending any real life friendships, which may be challenging.

In a somewhat related thought, I'd like to bring up what I feel is an issue with some of the PathFinder Society mods. I understand that the campaign is intended to be somewhat noir and morality can intentionally be fluid, even though evil characters are not permitted in PFS. However, there have been at least 2 mods I've played in as a paladin that basically started with the Venture Captain saying so and so hasn't turned in his report, so go to his house and beat the crap out of him. The party then went to the house, kicked the door in, and killed anything that moved, on the grounds it attacked them. In the first mod I pointed out that if they had kicked in my door *I* would have attacked them that they were committing an unlawful act at best (although I acknowledge that it is an assumption on my part that there is some form of law in Absolom that frowns on people getting their homes invaded) and possibly an evil act. In the second I managed to stop them before they attacked the people in the house and and got them to at least talk to the householder (which did promptly lead to a fight, but that's ok with my paladin). My point is that writers of the mods need to be careful to be conscious about whether they are directing the party to do inherently unlawful and/or evil acts. Sometimes this is done deliberately and the characters play undercover or they're on the run against a tyrant, or something like that (which can be a LOT of fun). Sometimes, though, I think it may be lazy writing and that can make it really hard for anyone who plays lawful and especially lawful good. I don't mind stretching my roleplay (in fact, I enjoy it), but I do object to scenarios that rule out a whole bunch of characters, especially if that is not made obvious beforehand.

Just my 2 cents' worth

A little more:

On the whip, I forgot that you're going to want to do that in combat, so you'll need Precise Shot (2 MORE feats!) and, of course, you need to suffer AOO for the range attack. Not gonna happen. Maybe at high levels, but at low level, forget it.

Here's a strategy I might try. At first level, dump Weapon Finesse and Combat Casting and replace with Point Blank and Precise Shot. Take the Focused Mind trait for a concentration boost. Maneuver to cast Color Spray (which is an "I win" spell at low level) while you are NOT in combat. Use cantrips at range while not in melee, just as a wizard does or use bow. Use melee weapon when you need to, using dex for ac, as a rogue does. Shocking Grasp is not going to affect the combat as much as a successful Color Spray at the first few levels. This will be good up to about 5th lvl. At that point other tactics will kick in.

FWIW

Thanks for the thread. I've had somewhat similar experiences playing in 2 PathFinder Society mods. My lvl 1 magus has Str 14, Dex 18, Combat Casting, Weapon Finesse. Uses rapier.
General impressions:
* AC is pretty good for first level but will trail off fast because I can't wear heavy armors and don't get the fighter armor feats.
* At first level, the bonus to hit with rapier and weapon finesse is good, damage is ok due to 14 str. A fighter will outdamage me in melee due to high str combined with Power Attack, Weapon Focus, ...
* I only get 2 1st level spells and PFS mods generally have 4-5 fights that you can't respell in between. Cantrips are ok if you are in position to use them for range attacks without AOOs. Like any other 1st level mage, I have to make Concentration Checks and quickly run out of spells and then *unlike* a 1st level mage, I can resort to decent armor and ok melee attack.
* As I've said in another thread, my impression is that the dex build is never going to keep up with a fighter and the gap will increase with level. A dex based fighter spec'd as archer will be a death machine and will significantly out damage the magus. They can fire arrows all day. You have 2 spells.
* I've looked at the dex build using whip, as some suggested in earlier playtest. The good point is that you can hit all day long and can deliver spells through Spellstrike. Unlike what some said earlier, though, you are unlikely to succeed at trip. You need exotic weapon prof whip and weapon finesse to begin to make that work. Add in another feat (can't recall name) that allows use of dex for CMB since you have relatively low CMB because there's just not enough stat to go around to have high dex, str, and int. Oh, and you want Improved Trip, too. IMO the whip build doesn't work because it is WAY too costly for what you get. (Frankly, I don't know why anyone of any class would ever wield the whip as written. Its feat cost is astronomical and all you get is a trip and disarm attack which you could get with a reach melee weapon)
* The magus desperately needs Acrobatics as a class skill. Magus seems to be intended as frontline melee. To survive as a light armor frontline meleer you've got to be able to tumble.
* Overall, imo some fairly significant changes need to be made. The flavor is kind of fun (I'm more role player than roll player). But at mid to high tiers I think you'll lag behind other classes. [NOTE: Some people have disagreed strongly with me on this, but I don't think they play PFS mods.] Might catch up at higher levels but I'm not sure. Spell progression puts you behind wizard and stat issues put you behind fighter. Might be fun as a secondary character. I don't need to be a mega character, but would like to stay in parity with other damage classes. I'm disappointed and not sure I'll keep playing the character. Might try swapping out Weapon Finesse for Power Attack and use a decent 1H weapon.

Are the feats in this book legal for PathFinder Society play? The book sounds like something I want, but if it's not legal I'll probably have to pass on it. Thx.

Ok, being at level 7 makes more sense to me. All I can tell you is that I have been playing a lvl 6 paladin, which I also consider a hybrid class, and he had ac 20. I started referring to him as "Dirtnap" which should tell you how well I was doing. Some other players at the table scolded me a bit and showed me ways to get ac to 25, which helped a lot. Fighters are using the armor training. I don't play fighters and don't really know anything about those feats. The archer is hitting ac 30ish with high dex. The fighter is hitting 30ish with good armor and other gear and, I think, good dex. That's about all I can tell you. I don't have the specifics. Pathfinder Society mods do tend to give out a lot of money and there is effectively free access to special gear once you hit level 6-8. I'll ask around and see if I can identify a tough mod for you. My point, though, is that they are ALL more or less as I described. Plus, you fight 5 encounters in one day, so spellcasters never get a chance to reload their spells. You don't see a lot of high level wizards in PFS play. IMO, and many people disagree, I think wizards have been nerfed almost to the point of unplayability in PFS mods. Someone involved in PathFinder development definitely dislikes arcanists because the mods go to sometimes ridiculous extremes to impose a time limit so spellcasters never get to refresh their spells. Fighters are now the big damage dealers up to level 8 or so. They do 30+ damage every round, all day long. The mage does 30-50 damage (which is resistable!) 4 or 5 times and then resorts to swinging a 1d6 quarterstaff. I've played 30-40 PFS mods and I'd say we got to refresh our spells in fewer than 5. Oh, and in another magus thread, I see the strict rules people want to impose *2* attacks of opportunity when a magus casts a range touch spell. Give me a friggin break! Why don't we simply remove magic and let the swordbashers play all by themselves! Ok, rant off, I'm much better now. LOL

Thanks for posting. I do see what you mean about spreading dex and str, and, in fact, that's more or less what I've done, although I took weapon finesse. I've been trying to decide where to go form here, which is why I posted.

Do I understand correctly that you posted for a level 9ish party? You must not be playing PathFinder Society mods. No offense, but imo those would eat your party for lunch. This weekend I played a level 5/6 mod with a level 6 paladin with ac 25. The fighter and the archer each had ac 31 iirc. They were hitting for 30-40 per round. I didn't do much until we got to the boss, who was evil, and then I smited it and smacked it down hard. Monsters were doing roughly 30-40 damage per round. It was a tough mod, but we made it through. At level 9 I would expect the fighter's ac to be around 40 and things we would face would do 40-50 points of damage per round to a party with AC 30+. Light armor spellcasters have got to have good tanks out in front or they die. I frequently see this with my level 10 cleric, too. YMMV. Thanks for the discussion. It has been very interesting and helpful.

This is a little off the topic of magus build and more on a point of strategy: I keep seeing posters talking about using Daze; one playtester mentioned locking down a goblin until someone could kill it. Could someone please explain this to me? What I don't understand is that the spell targets a single opponent and the duration is 1 round and the spell wording says "After a creature has been dazed by this spell, it is immune to the effects of this spell for 1 minute." So you could "lock down" an opponent for 1 round and that's it, as far as I can tell. I suppose you could then lock down another opponent for 1 round, but I don't see this as a very effective control mechanism. What am I missing?

Hmmm... Ok, well I haven't played to lvl 9, so I have to defer to your experience. A couple of thoughts, though:

With your build, at level 5 you get 5 shocking grasps, although I suppose you could use the pool to cast it a couple more times. In PFS play there are typically 5 combat encounters, so you'll average 1 per combat. 5d6 means you'll average 17.5 points of damage due to shocking grasp, once per encounter. Nice, but not a game changer. Fighters I'm seeing at level 5-6 have ACs close to 30 and do 30ish points of damage per round. Archers do 40ish points per round. With no weapon finesse and going power attack and weapon focus, I guess you'll do ok, but I still think you would lag. If you're not lagging, what feats do you have through level 5? How much damage are you doing per round, particularly once you run out of spells? At level 2 I guess you could use a two hander and/or reach weapon with spellstrike, although some DMs might rule you have to have a hand free to cast the spell, which could be a problem for 2H.

What about AC? You're wearing light armor and probably no shield (although you could have a shield spell up if you want, but that cuts into your shocking grasp uses unless you're using a wand or scroll and that imposes a requirement on gear) and you don't get the fighter boosts to AC. You're probably carrying an AC of what, 20-25? So I would guess you're getting hit more often than a comparable fighter, especially since to use the shocking grasp you're a frontline melee combatant. With a Con of 8 or 10, depending on which build you chose, HP seems like it would be a problem. Several of the playtesters noted a problem with taking lots of damage.

You do get some area effect spells that the fighter obviously does not get. But at level 5 they're level 2 spells, so no big boomers like fireball.

It seems to me that the magus is still lagging a bit. Guess I'll have to wait to lvl 5 to see. And the argument about "the build" that you make? With respect, if strength magus is the only viable option, that's a problem, imo. I don't disagree with your comment about whip availability but was just looking for a way to put more playability into magus. I do think acrobatics is an appropriate class skill for a light armored fighter.

FWIW.

I have limited experience with the magus (3 PathFinder society mods), but I have thought about it and discussed it with some other players. Here's some feedback. I've been trying to figure out what niche the magus fills. My first thought was that it was a cool blend of fighter and wizard. I still think it's got some nice flavor and would work for people who are heavily flavor oriented. However, there are some problems, imo. Damage is far behind fighters and archers. By 5th level or so, it looks to me like there will be no comparison. Spells are similar to those for wizard, but progression means you're a level behind in the highest level. Someone suggested they are more rogue-like, but, again,no sneak attack and not the utility skills. As some others have suggested, the magus might make a good controller, but a few changes are needed. The whip idea is nice, but unfortunately you can't really use it until level 3 or 5. For a dex-based magus, anyway. At first level choose, weapon finesse and focused casting. At 3rd choose exotic weapon whip. Now you can use the whip, but strength is probably not high for a dex magus, so you wait until level 5 to choose agile maneuvers so you can use dex for cmb. Now, given that PathFinder society only goes to level 12, you've used almost half your levels to become effective as a controller. Dervish Dancer allows you to be effective at low levels, though I doubt you'll keep up with fighter damage. It might work to play the class as a wizard who can fight once the spells are exhausted rather than a fighter who can cast; not sure. Overall, I'm not sure the class works. Like many hybrid classes it may just not be effective enough. A couple changes that would help would be to add whip as a weapon and acrobatics as a skill, since you'll almost certainly need to tumble, jump, etc to control the space during the fight. My 2 cents' worth.