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Douglas Muir 406's page

8,623 posts. 5 reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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That's just a little cheesy. But, okay, I'll allow it. That'll burn a full ten rounds of bardic performance. (It's not like you've been using those anyway, mind.)

Edmin, you have one more chance!

Uh oh. I just checked, and burning a mythic point is an immediate action -- which you only get one of per round. So you can only burn one at a time.

Hmph. Maybe I shouldn't have emphasized the importance of that saving throw.

Is that all the mythic surge you've got?

Edmin, make a Will save.

(You really want to make this.)

...the dying dragon opens its eyes. It rasps out a few harsh, sibilant syllables.


...thief... curse you... curse you... forever...

And then, at last, it dies.


To the dragon's considerable though short-lived surprise, knocking Edmin down does very little to stop him. I see this as Edmin getting knocked down and the dragon crawling over him, and then Edmin swinging his axe from the ground up for a lethal blow into the monster's vitals.

Nythoggr the great cairn worm shudders. Black blood flows out in a torrent from the vast wound. His immense form tilts to one side, then collapses. The great eyes begin to sink into the massive skull...

Well, first the good news.


Blargh. You're right -- he's not dead. Dang, Mythic levels really change things.

Edmin is still prone; as the Judge noted, it just solidifies the air beneath your feet.

Okay, clarification from Judge and Edmin, please. Edmin can delay his action into early Round 4, allowing the judge to Dim Door him away to another point adjacent to the dragon. He will still be prone, though. Is that what you want to do?

Ipslore the Red wrote:
Jyoti and sceaduinar are both opposed to undead, but sceaduinar only because they hate just about anything that moves.

Hm, Jyoti are interesting. Didn't know about them.

-- Back in 3.5, wasn't there a race of underdark aberrations that specialized in eating undead?

Doug M.

I'm looking for creatures that are particularly specialized for attacking undead. Psychomps are the most obvious example; it's RAW that they all hate undead, and a couple of them, like the Esobok and the Morrigna, have abilities that help them hunt and kill undead. The Marut Inevitable is tasked with eliminating those who prolong their lives unnaturally. Are there others?

Doug M.

If she's allied with the Spiders, then she's at war with the Denizens. The Spiders want the annexation because it will increase their power, tipping the balance in their favor. The Denizens are happy with Leng being expanded, but only if it's on their terms. So, at some point a Denizen might attempt to make friendly contact with the PCs to direct them against the Jarl and her allies.

The Jarl expects to gain near demigodlike power out of the deal, while her followers will prosper too -- they'll gain a CR +2 template that will let them survive in Leng. The Jarl thinks that, in fact, they might end up being the dominant race there, or at least holding the balance between the Spiders and their foes.

A few frost giants have already acquired the Leng Template. Season to taste, but it could look something like this:

Leng Template:

“Leng Creature” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid of Small to huge size with at least 6 HD (hereafter referred to as the “base creature”). It uses all the base creature’s abilities and statistics, except as noted below.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +2.

Alignment: Always chaotic evil.

Type: The base creature’s type changes to outsider, and it gains the augmented, evil, and extraplanar subtypes. Do not recalculate class Hit Dice, BAB, or saves.

Senses: A Leng Creature gains darkvision 60 ft.

Armor Class: Natural armor improves by +4. This stacks with any existing natural armor bonus the base creature has.

Hit Dice: Change all racial Hit Dice to d10s. Class Hit Dice are unaffected.

Defensive Abilities: A Leng Creature gains DR 10/silver. They are immune to cold, confusion and insanity effects, poison, and sonic attacks. They have spell resistance equal to their CR +10.

Attacks: Same as base creature.

Ability Scores: Dex +4, Wis +4, Cha +4.

Skills: A Leng Creature gains skill points as an outsider for its racial Hit Dice with skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) x HD. Leng Creatures gain a +8 racial bonus on Intimidate and Sense Motive checks.

Feats: Leng Creatures gain Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes and Toughness as bonus feats.

Appearance: A Leng Creature is obviously different from a normal giant: their movements have an odd sinuous grace, there is a curious sheen to their skin, and their eyes have become a solid black without iris or pupil. Other giants give them a wide berth.

There aren't a lot of Leng Giants, but they can be a nasty surprise for cocky PCs -- they no longer have the giant subtype, so giant-targeting spells and tactics won't work, and they're a lot less likely to fall victim to simple enchantments and illusions.

Is this the sort of thing you're thinking of?

Doug M.

Judge Tohram Quasangi wrote:

I am confused by the initiative order. Is the Judge after Edmin? Since the Judge can easily free Edmin from the grapple, I would think that Edmin would have delayed so that he could make a full attack with his axe.

Edmin acts at the end of every round. So, at the end of round 3 he was prone and pinned under the dragon. You could act to free him in Round 4.

Edmin Al'Roth wrote:
Edmin strikes at the dragons with his cold iron mace.

Wait a sec. Drawing is a move action, right? So you would only get that first attack, not a FRA. Am I missing something?

Edmin can act to finish Round 3 (though he is both prone and grappled). Once he's done, onwards to Round 4.

For the dragon's last attack, he lashes out with his tail at Edmin: 1d20 ⇒ 15. That does another 3d6 + 18 ⇒ (5, 2, 1) + 18 = 26 damage, and also Edmin is 1d20 ⇒ 8 grappled.

Zhangar wrote:

Ultimate Magic states that you can call native outsiders with planar binding*, but not while on the material plane. I may have brought this up in one of Muir's other guide threads.

No, I was not aware of this. Thanks for the clarification!


Muir, you may also want to note which creatures are actually servitors (like the dapsara angels) - i.e., they work for a specific god(dess), and abusive calling might draw unwelcome attention.

Are there any others besides the dapsaras? It's strongly implied but not actually stated that the Umbrals are servitors of Zon-Kuthon... anyone else?


* Note that what answers Planar Ally is entirely up to the caster's diety's (i.e., the GM's) discretion. The caster can certainly make a request, but the request isn't binding.

Yeah, I've contemplated a separate Guide to Planar Ally. This started off as an innocent little 5-page guide to a fun prestige class. It's now a 25 page Guide to the Diabolist, a 20 page draft Guide to Planar Binding, and probably about 30 pages of appendix to that. So, maybe not just now?

Doug M.

gustavo iglesias wrote:

Ok, I have found the Templates for Nythoggr.

He'll be an Advanced Giant Boreal Terror Cairn Linnorm.

That gives him +14 Str, +4 Dex, +10 Con +4 Wis and Cha, +1d6 cold damage, cold inmunity, aura of Fear (DC 33), and Colossal Size. Even leaving the feats as they are in a regular Linnorm (no Combat Reflexes), the old beast is now really a Terror to Behold.


+46 AC, 400 hp, +32 bite for 4d8+20 plus poison, +32 claws for 2d8+20, +27 tail for 4d6+10 plus grab, CMB 48, and the Breath Weapon, Fear and Poison DC will go around DC 33.

I gave him the Advanced template and some buffs, and frankly it wasn't enough. He killed one PC, but only because the PC was foolishly careless. Some things to consider:

-- at this level, most melee PCs can eat a FRA attack from him and survive.
-- at this level, PCs can dish out insane amounts of damage with FRAs and spells. 400 points in one round is not at all unreasonable. Nythoggr needs better AC and more hits. Also, pretty much all melee PCs have +3 weapons that can ignore his DR.
-- Nythoggr's feat selection is very suboptimal and he is not given good terrain or good tactics to work with. At best he gets a single surprise round to breathe. That's not going to do much.

Gary's flavor text talks up poor old Nythoggr: woo, he's a CR 18 boss! He's going to stay up in the air and blast the PCs from a distance -- but at this level, everyone has flight and/or massive damage ranged attacks. Nythoggr is just not that menacing an opponent, even against a standard Group of Four 15th level characters. Against a larger group and/or a group played by experienced players and/or optimizers... he's toast. His nominal CR may be 18, but CR gets a bit blurry at those levels and while that number may be formally correct, he's just not powerful or flexible enough to be a truly alarming boss.

TLDR, Nythoggr definitely needs to be beefed up; the only question is by how much.

Doug M.

Aberrant Templar wrote:

The nobles on the upper rungs of society would also probably live about the same as anywhere else, only things would be somewhat ... darker. Something like the films Dangerous Liaisons/Cruel Intentions, the Devil Wears Prada, Heathers, or any number of movies/books where a bunch of rich and powerful people do horrible things to each other in order to maneuver into a position of slightly greater power. It would be a lot like Taldor, only with less boredom and more malice.

It's important not to forget the "evil" part. Malice and cruelty!

In addition to the stuff you've already listed, I'd add

-- cruel and unfair laws
-- torture as part of the legal code and as an accepted part of society
-- intense awareness of status, especially formal status
-- a general "kick up / kiss down" attitude being not merely accepted but encouraged.
-- an efficient and ruthless bureaucracy
-- lack of any sort of liberty. (A Diabolist regime does not have freedom of speech, assembly, religion or movement.)
-- something of an obsession with contracts.

Doug M.

It does seem that if Paizo were just running the numbers for "which will make the most money", the obvious candidates would be CotCT and Kingmaker. Both have stayed consistently popular for years now, and both have been partially OOP for some time.

Doug M.

I think the takeaway here is "do not stand near angry dragons unless you have rather a lot of hp".

Also, while the dragon not much of a talker, that doesn't mean he's stupid. This is not his first trip to the rodeo, and he's more than bright enough to target buffers and healers first.

Ross Byers wrote:
Personally, I don't allow calling (Native) Outsiders with planar binding or planar ally. It feels against intent to call something else from the material plane.

Well, the spell's language says "to lure a creature from another plane", so you could argue that native outsiders are exempt. OTOH, the spell's language also says you can target "elementals or outsiders", and the latter category certainly includes native outsiders.

Thinking about it, you have two texts: "creature from another plane" (which would include non-outsider inhabitants of other planes, like plants or constructs) and "elementals or outsiders" (which would include native outsiders). A third interpretation would be that *both* texts apply, meaning only elementals and outsiders that are also from another plane.

That might seem reasonable... but even so, questions would remain. It's canon that there are aasimars in some of the Upper Planes, for instance. So could you call an aasimar from Heaven? It's a creature from another plane, and it's an outsider. For that matter, what if you cast Planar Binding while on another plane? Or, if you wanted to be really annoying, a demiplane?

-- Honestly, the Planar Binding spells are not very well written. AFAICT the Pathfinder version is pretty much the one written for 3.0 back in the last century. It has a lot of fuzzy bits. So, discuss with your DM before trying anything clever. Meanwhile, I think I should probably include native outsiders for completeness' sake.

Doug M.

Correct, he's immune to Str damage. And yes, he hit you with a 3, other penalties included.

Milo v3 wrote:
I'm surprised no one's mentioned tieflings and aasimar. Planar binding proper wizards has been rather useful in my experience.

Don't think I'd allow this, myself. You could get a tiefling or aasimar under RAW, but they'd be the plain vanilla CR 1 versions.

Doug M.

The dragon still has one attack left -- saving it until I confirm that Dren is down.

First claw attack: 2d6 + 24 ⇒ (6, 4) + 24 = 34 of damage. If my math is correct that's a total of 115 points of damage; Dren has 124 points, right?

The second claw attack will certainly kill Dren unless there's something else going on (i.e., you have some buff or contingency or something like that) -- or if you didn't write down some earlier damage, in which case you might be knocked out already.

Anyway: assuming all the damage does get through, then the dragon will finish Dren off with one last contemptuous claw swipe 2d6 + 24 ⇒ (3, 2) + 24 = 29.

Two hits for 6d8 + 48 ⇒ (8, 8, 7, 2, 7, 1) + 48 = 81 of damage. Then, two claw attacks: 1d20 ⇒ 12 1d20 ⇒ 13

Edmin is prone, so no FRA from him this round. The Judge is no threat. So, the dragon is going to throw some love at Dren this round.

Two bite attacks: 1d20 ⇒ 16 1d20 ⇒ 3


The kobold's bombs explode all around the dragon. At the end of that, it's looking distinctly rocky! But still standing.

Jax Naismith wrote:

Jax growls as the dragon's scales smash into him again. He can feel bones creak, his blood splashing the floor from the monster's attacks. "This is getting a bit..rough."

Down to 49 HP. Does the dragon go after Jax then?

It's immune to ability damage. And while you're definitely hurting it, its DR is soaking up a lot of the hp damage as well.

Hard pounding, this. murmurs Brink as you teleport away. Let's see who pounds longest.

She's allied with Leng? Okay, easy-peasey: she wants to merge part of Golarion with Leng. The Paizo crew have carefully avoided giving too many details about Leng, but it's "a dimension of nightmare and madness", it's home to the Denizens and the Leng Spiders (both CE) and it's cold.

Not canon, but: Leng can grow, cancer-like, by infecting other planes. The Jarl has a deal with the Denizens whereby she'll annex the Lands of the Linnorm Kings to Leng. Leng grows, and the Jarl gets... something. Maybe in the new Land, she'll be a demigoddess of nightmares, or some such.

Of course, all parties involved are CE, which means that treachery by either or both is not just possible but likely. Nonetheless, this is something the PCs would really want to stop. If the Jarl and her extradimensional friends succeed, the result will be something like a second Worldwound, albeit with the main adjectives being "cold, bleak, and eerie" more than "horrific, aggressive, and insane". Still noplace you want to live down the street from.

Doug M.

Waiting on Jax before I resolve this round.

Annoyingly, the dragon is immune to negative levels. And its DR completely absorbs your damage. So... the Judge is just banging on the side of the dragon and yelling.

For those of us who aren't up to speed on the setting -- is there any other information on the DJ? Race/class/level? Anything else about her?

Also, what level are the PCs now, and what level would they be by the time the might be facing her?

Doug M.

Edmin Al'Roth wrote:
So .....where am I in relation to the dragon now?

The Judge blipped you in adjacent to one side of the beast, within reach. However, having been killed and then quite suddenly returned to life, you are prone.

Ulp only:

Yes well, that would require a Heal check now wouldn't it. Mind, you can make those untrained!

I would allow you to delay init until the end of the round. That way, you can see if Edmin (or whoever) finishes it off first.

Jax Naismith wrote:

Jax's mythic ability let's him roll twice for spell resistance. 1d20 or 1d20 +17 note that the movement happens regardless of the hook hitting, although it would prevent that 15 damage.

Why would it prevent damage? You suffer normal AoOs with that thing, right?

Well, crudknuckles. And the dragon was saving an AoO for exactly this sort of thing, but your Grace -- a second level spell! -- shuts that down.

Okay, Round Three. Jax, the Judge and Ulp take your actions.

Jax, Force Hook Charge needs a spell resistance roll. (Remind me why you rolled twice on that?)

Jax, take 3d8 + 33 ⇒ (1, 2, 6) + 33 = 42 damage.

Dren, Edmin being dead, you may want to reconsider your Round 2 actions. Everyone else, hold your round 3 actions while I calculate the total damage to the dragon.

That should finish him. 3d6 + 17 ⇒ (6, 1, 3) + 17 = 27, and Edmin is smashed flat.

Oh, and he still has another bite attack. Whirling, he turns his attention to Jax: 1d20 ⇒ 14

Bwaah, I don't believe it -- he's standing with 1 hp. Okay, here comes the tail attack: 1d20 ⇒ 12

Yeah, with Power Attack I think that's enough to do the job. But here are the numbers: 4d6 + 48 ⇒ (2, 2, 3, 2) + 48 = 57

Well, first let's see if Edmin survives. His magical hat (which nobody makes fun of, ridiculous though it may appear) somehow shifts so that it gets wedged in the monster's teeth, blunting the force of its attack. Hissing in irritation, the dragon lashes out with two claw attacks: 1d20 ⇒ 191d20 ⇒ 14

Interesting. That would downgrade her from "Top notch" to "Very Good" IMO. -- Note that a bunch of these angels will be showing up for the later versions of these spells.

Doug M.

Ulp already bombed in Round 2 -- message 697. We're now late in Round 2. Edmin, you'll get your damage from your FRA if you survive. This is, of course, why the dragon is trying to eliminate you first. Dragons aren't stupid.

oh dear.

Confirm crit? 1d20 ⇒ 19 Welp. That's 6d8 + 66 ⇒ (6, 2, 2, 1, 8, 4) + 66 = 89 damage, which is more than enough to kill Edmin dead.

If anyone has Breath of Life or some similar get-out-of-jail-free card, you can play it now -- I'll wait.

[Do keep track of mythic points and other resources, gang.]

Actually, you did need Spell Penetration. Roll that when you have a moment. Meanwhile, the dragon turns its attention to Edmin and the Judge. It starts with a bite attack at Edmin: 1d20 ⇒ 20

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