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FullStarFullStarFullStar Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo 13,962 posts. 3 reviews. 1 list. 1 wishlist. 14 Organized Play characters.


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Wayne Bradbury wrote:
Would they be able to take it at 1?

no, they don't qualify since they aren't a Druid

Wayne Bradbury wrote:
Would they need to take it with Additional Traits after 4?

Still don't qualify since they aren't a druid

Wayne Bradbury wrote:
Would they need a druid dip to take it?

Yes, perhaps as their first level. I'm not sure if that trait can be taken after lv1.

Wayne Bradbury wrote:
If they do, would it still affect Shifter Wild Shape?

no idea

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Except that there's a STRONG chance that it doesn't work.
Bashing increases the damage of the shield to be 2 sizes larger.
Brawler lets you remove the base damage and replace it with your punch damage.
So it's very likely that bashing increases the damage before looking to replace the shields damage with your punch damage.

probably best, channel resistance seems like it'd be a same source/bonus kind of thing and thus you'd only take the best.

*** Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

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Cloren Chenross wrote:

I broke the final encounter with Puzzle Box, GM rule he’d do a full withdraw rather than fight at the staggering penalty I inflicted. Cost us a few items and a lot of gold

Tempted to sell the spell out of the book now

If I'm understanding right that you lost gold for the scenario because the last guy ran instead of being killed that shouldn't have happened. If you win the encounter creatively (making them so bad they'd rather run sounds like a creative solution) then you're supposed to still get full rewards for solving the encounter. It's in the guide and everything.

no, basically "such as haste" will have 1 of 2 phrases
"grants an extra attack like haste"
"grants an extra attack, doesn't stack with haste"
Wildfighting doesn't mention haste so it's not similar to haste.

Zolanoteph wrote:

Try archaeologist.

Instead of using a lute or flute or witty retort, he fights like a man. Archaeologist's luck is a scaling bonus to hit and damage, which makes up for the BaB and gives a much needed class based damage boost. Then you get rogue talents which are basically feats or better.

Half orc is a cool choice for weapon proficiencies. There's a lot of synergy for a character like this with charisma friendly feats like battle cry and dazzling display.

archaeologist is great, but it's what I call a "selfish bard" aka "not a bard" because when people hear bard the expect inspire courage and you don't do that.

Yep it's a GREAT magic rogue or overall useful guy. Just be aware you need to manage expectations if you take it.

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There are probably feats and abilities that come in later than you wished they did that can maybe make it happen.

But by default no.

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unfettered rage feat I believe is what you're looking for.

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Uncanny dodge is basically saying you're always ready for a fight and never caught off guard.

trap sense is the same thing, you're always ready for something to be jumping out at you.

acrobatics because that's a physical skill and they are fit men that can do physical things like jumping.

*** Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

Globetrotter wrote:
Other things like, there is no cover when making ranged attacks, etc... I suppose I should get out of my shell more and deal with different rules interpretations. I am frequently wrong after all.

There are a few ways to bypass cover even in early levels if the GM already knew the player had this they'd not mention cover since it wasn't a factor for that guy.

Also it's possible it was being factored in and not just explicitly mentioned, Gm knows that there's cover and applies the +4 AC.

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GodsBlister wrote:
As much as I remember those words, it is possible I misremember where I heard them.

I know at the PaizoCon Dinner event last year their introduction had a slide that said, "Martial class with full base attack progression. Shifters are to druids as paladins are to clerics"

Which is saying it's the druid's paladin.

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Largely depends on if you're fighting humany enemies much or not. If you fight human-shaped things then they are pretty easy to pull manuevers and trip is really good.
If they are snakes, or flying or spiders etc. that are hard or impossible to trip then tripping is useless meaning bull rush wins by default of actually being usable (saying nothing if it's worth using or not).

No way for that.

The viking fighter though might fit your bill, it's a fighter that pretends to be a barb.

Depends on what you want honestly.
Paladin works and can change your stats some to make better use of it.
Fighter can get mutagen, weapon training.
WP can get spells to buff themselves

Ranger/slayer if you want more skill points, slayer's more consistent but ranger has access to lead blades.

From your feats I THINK it's okay to go some 3/4ths and still get your feats at the level listed. So like a selfish bard, inquisitor and medium can be good battle classes.

I think the vigilante has a cool talent comboing with vital strike.

Going WP, cleric or inquisitor can trade your domain for the ability to vital strike on a charge saving you a feat that lets you get that (divine fighting technique for Gorum).

Disciple of the Pike cavalier can really combo well with charging not sure if there's a polearm or spear that does 2d6 base though.

Personally I'd suggest multiclassing to build this character. You only need 4 levels of bloodrager to get large when raging. That leave many levels you could take other classes to get more benefit. Full bab classes and/or warpriest will let you qualify for feats fine.

that's correct.


*** Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

Globetrotter wrote:
Not to mention one of the players was playing a character banned from PFS play: a metamorph alchemist.

the metamorph is a legal archetype in PFS.

All archetypes in this book are legal for play except the brute, cipher, daring general, guild agent, gunmaster, hallucinist, majordomo, tyrant, warlord, zeitgeist.

*** Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Unless the game is completely inconsistent it shouldn't work.

Well now we know the real issue. Your base premise is flawed ;)

As much as I and many wish the game was even mostly internally consistent I feel it's further from that then we think.

it's not bad if you want to be a caster archer. It, like most(all?) PrC aren't really upgrades but side-grades or downgrades.

*** Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

here should be able to download the guide that explains everything.

here is a nice guide written by a person to be helpful

Main points are
20pt buy.
start with 150gp
must own source for all material used
some stuff isn't legal found in the additional resources page
and some stuff is slightly modified in campaign clarifications

I believe they just ignore the pit

no, they'd still need the feat.
that line is there for something like

Bow Awesomeness
you're so cool when using a longbow or shortbow.

This lets the hornbow also work.

But something like

Longbow love
you love the longbow more than any other weapon

doesn't count since it doesn't include shortbow.

The author explained that it was to try and "make it work with existing abilities and future abilities that work for all bows but specifically listed long and short to avoid ambiguity of it works with hornbow." (not a quote)

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bards have a lot of combat going for them if built for it.

Bards get +1 to attack and damage at lv1 and it scales.
Bards gain access to arcane strike and often aren't doing anything better with their swift actions for more damage.
bards gain early access to heroism for +2 to attacks and saves(helping out their poor fort)

So a bard at lv5 has +3 from bab, +4 str, +2 heroism, +2 bardsong = +11 for d +6 str, +2 bardsong, +2 arcane strike = d +10
Power attack takes this to +10 for d+13

A barb lv5 has +5 from bab +6 str = +11 for d +9 str = d +9
with power attack he's at +9 for d+15

So we can see that the bard is able to be pulling off very competent numbers. The biggest issue is that normally people build them with 14 or less str and then don't understand why it's not a combat build. Like a barb with 14 str is a considerably worse combat build than an 18 str one. Just need to get stats right and the bard works well.

An advanced trick is the strength of submission trait for +1 to attack and damage while under heroism! :)

The question is answered by the answer to this question.
To make +1 hellknight plate do you need to make it masterwork paying an additional 150gp to the price shown or not.

If it's already masterwork plate and thus can't be more masterwork then you don't need to pay the masterwork fee before you can get a +1 on it. And thus mithral doesn't reduce 3 but 2 since masterwork was already included.

if it's not masterwork plate but something else that can be made masterwork then pay the extra for the +1 and then mithral works fine since it's not already masterwork.

The answer I think is correct is the 1st. You're paying extra for your brand name, but it's just masterwork plate and thus mithral can't double dip.

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Yes, anyone can wear that.
A barb would get the ACP to all of his str and dex d20 rolls and not just skills. So initiative and attack rolls.

wraithstrike wrote:
Quandary wrote:


@Wraithstrike: Is there any general rule state Su use CHA by default? This isn't a racial/monster ability, it is class ability which otherwise uses WIS. Other Su Domain powers with DCs state they use WIS, I think the fact that this one doesn't state a Save DC stat is just another aspect of bad writing/editing. (Relatedly, I believe some Domain abilities listed as Sp but with 1/2 level + WIS formula, like Trickery's Master's Illusion, should actually be Su abilities, since that is very non-standard for Sp to have DC unrelated to it's effective spell level... But in the meantime enjoy DC buffs to spellcasting)

Someone said it was an SLA so I didnt check behind them. I know SLA's default to CHA.

As for SU's, and honestly I still haven't checked to see what this is, that is normally called out in the description so I guess I'd better check to see which ability score is called out.

After checking: It doesn't say what this ability uses, which isn't good. SU's are supposed to say which ability score something is based on. As an example at the end of the description you normally see something such as what is typed below if it's not explained earlier in the description.

example of how the DC description tends to be written for SU's:

The save DC against a breath weapon is 10 + 1/2 dragon's HD + dragon's Con modifier.

As an example of a class ability that is better written would be a witches hexes since they call out intelligence as the stat that increases the DC.

In this case, since no ability score is mentioned, I would say it's wisdom for the ability being discussed.

edit:I did say SU's. I apologize for that. I have no reason why I wrote SU's used Cha when I know its not true for many of them.

If a domain or subdomain ability calls for a saving throw, the DC of the save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the character’s cleric level + her Wisdom modifier.

Derklord wrote:
Quandary wrote:
although gotta say... smells like Splat that should be Core Errata

Agreed, and it's somethign that I generally hate. I realised that "wrong" was too strong a word, but edit time had run out.

Quandary wrote:
But in this case I don't think it applies, given the "must have observable effect" clause.

I didn't quote the entire description. The intend seems to be for everything that needs to be activated to be identifiable.

** spoiler omitted **...

Is that something that everyone can do or is that a feat to do it?

yeah, spell lists are pretty set and quite hard to add to.

Now if you're talking about spell research then it's up to your GM as that rule isn't frequently allowed. But if it's allowed for arcane it's not crazy to think you're working with your power source to come up with a new spell.

no they wouldn't get the monk IUS damage.

Belabras wrote:
Why Dazzling Display instead of Cornugon Smash? I mean, you are already power attacking all the time, may as well intimidate also.

I think he's said it's cause it was a bloodline feat. Or maybe it was to work with the bloodline feat intimidating prowess?

I think it'd be determined by the creator of the scroll.
That or you do the DR/Evil since you're a positive energy guy with your LoH similar to how it works for oracles.

1) He'll instantly see a magic effect and which square it's in that he can KNOW ARCANA to know it's an illusion school.
2)The magic aura IS VERY OBVIOUS, this will help answer 3 and 4. But yes, if there's a magic trap if he gets line of sight to the magic trap area he knows there's magic there, he won't know it's a trap per se, just that there's magic there and which school it is.
3)yes, he instantly knows that there are 2 sources of magic, the room and the coin.
4)if he's using mundane hiding to hide then the mundane hiding hides the magic items and thus their aura too. But if he's using hide in plain sight or something like that then yes, as long as the wizard has a clear line of sight to the magic items he'll see the magic item.

So my issues with your build are these, when lv9+ are you going to want to take a full round action to intimidate people?
I see you either wanting to full attack, charge, move and attack, move and ready and attack, or move and cast a buff spell.
What I don't really see is the feeling that intimidating people without moving is better than all of those options.

Also a note, if you go the reach build you're able to get full attacks more often and that means less use of vital strike and cleave. And I feel cleave is already pretty iffy due to the position requirements being so hard to meet, in my experience.

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Moonheart wrote:
Kurald Galain wrote:
Moonheart wrote:
And... I've never said, not only once, my build was superior. You can check.

Seriously now? You've been repeatedly making such claims all over the page. For instance,

Moonheart wrote:

- it does MORE damage than ALL other kind of Magus

- it it BETTER at ALL manoeuvers than all other kind of Magus
Moonheart wrote:
Now, on top of a superior DPR, the EBS build using the Elven Curved Sword also have:
Moonheart wrote:
I still reach a highest DPH than with your STR build by at least 3 points,

...and you were proven wrong on all counts. Yeah, I think we're done here.

That show how biased you have been from the beginning, because almost all my answers have ALSO been mentionning :

- "after the level 13"
- "at the cost of two more feats"
- and "damage is not everything"

Since how, someone trying to be fair and accurate, traduce someone else's sentence "it does more damage once it reach level 13, at the cost of two feats more" into "it's clearly superior" ?

Dude, first off, are you not arguing that it's better at lv13? Like the only reason for your view would be that it's clearly better at lv13 and thus worth the costs. If it's NOT better then there's no reason to say it's a good idea cause it's not. Cause at that point your advocating little to no benefit or niche benefit for extra cost and that is something that gets a poor rating in a guide.

If your issue is that we're saying "clearly superior" and you mean "generally better but with a higher cost" then we are saying the same thing. But like above, we assumed your view must be trying to prove that it's a better choice and thus worth a better rating.

We've done our pass and it wasn't good. You're the one saying it's good, the one wanting to change our minds, so it's your job to provide proof that doesn't get nullified when we look at it. We don't really need to change your mind, we don't feel the need to convince you to accept our view that it's bad. And I'm totally up for being proven wrong, it's fun because that often lets me know about something I've overlooked or didn't know about. But you've not done a good job showing that it's better at lv13. Your last build I commented on and showed with math and numbers that really all your build had over the str build was a higher REF save while being worse at some stuff and taking a long time to come online. You didn't respond to any of those points to show that yours was better in any other way.

So like what are you expecting? What more of us do you want other than responding to your examples and showing why your builds aren't beating the recommended builds? We get that you think we're being jerks, but you aren't sharing what you'd want us to do differently (okay you did ask that we provide all the math ever to prove that the elf build is worse than everything but that's a ridiculous request.)

The DR does not stack with adamantine armor.

DeathlessOne wrote:
JohnHawkins wrote:
Spirit guide Oracle can be complicated and there are some rules which have to be interpreted by each GM specifically the Arcane enlightment hex is very controversial with some ruling it gives you nothing, others saying it lets you pick sorceror spells differently each time you take it and others such as me letting it give you access to a fixed list of sorceror spells.
Best solution to that is just not bother with those 'complicated issues' and choose different abilities that don't complicate matters. Just stay away from the Lore Spirit.

especially when there's a FAQ clarifying it doesn't work for oracles

blessings are standard by default per the SU rules.

Just tell people you're a dumb bard that doesn't knowledge.
I had a bard, I introduced them as a selfish bard so that people knew he wasn't going to be handing out inspire courage.

I'm not sure that people from 3 years ago care. It polite on these forums to not comment on old threads.

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Moonheart wrote:

God, you're so irritating...

I'll do it again one LAST time.

Moonheart wrote:

In your guide, your recommended stat distribution for a STR build is the following: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8

At level 13, you got +3 str from level up, and adding a +4 item, you reach:
- BAB+7 on attack rolls
- 1d8 base damage
- +7 on damage rolls from stats
- +6 on damage rolls from power attack

The stat distribution is a 20pt budget, and assume a +2 int item to be able to cast level 6th spell... it ends with an average damage per hit of 17.5

Now, with the same 20pt budget, I end when with this stat distribution after applying the elven racial modifiers:
Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8 (2pts left, could grab an extra +1 Willpower)
I replace the items by a +4 dex, a +2 constitution and an Elven Curved Blade...

I end at level 13 with:
- 1d10 base damage
- +3 intelligence to damage
- +9 on damage rolls from power attack
=> which means the same 17.5 average damage per hit, with the same attack bonus, the same critical range and the same critical multiplier.

And I reach this result fixing the Power Attack pre-requiste, and taking ALL the worst assumptions you've throw in my way (not enough gold for two +4 items, no x1.5 multiplier to int modifier, when you still have to prove those points)
That's here the worst-case scenario.

Now remember: the EBS magus also do have more AoO per turn, so since it has every other factor being equal, it will then finaly end with a better DPR

... on top of a better AC, reflex save, will save, and amount of skill ranks.

I don't think your AC is really that better, the STR magus can be in full plate at that level which gives it base 10 AC your 7 dex+armor is not much higher if any.

your bonus will is cause you're "cheesing" that stats by buying a 17 and using all 3 stat bumps. If the str build was only caring about lv13 he could just the same buy str of 17 and have extra points to up will save.
having many potential AoOs is often only useful if you can cause enemies to provoke them. I've rarely seen fights where you can get many AoOs
1 skill point a level is a feat away for the str one, and it would seem like he has "feats to spare" since this elf build uses so many feats to qualify. Plus also only true until the INT headband when the str version matches skills with the elf version.
The Reflex save IS a lot better though, there's not really any matching there. But if I cared about that I'd just be a dervish magus for dex fighting.

And to be the REAL kicker is, why are you two handing your weapon but the str version isn't? this elven style doesn't grant special powers for that as far as I'm aware, so if they're two handing then the str should as well for a bonus 6 damage per hit putting them over this elven style.

And it's 4 feats to come online with. The magus can get good numbers with 4 feats. I'm not sure what the STR one does in the guide, but with 4 feats the magus could have WF, WS, toughness, and lightning reflex putting them at +1 accuracy, +2 damage, and +13 HP over this elf build.

So for many feats I can do the same damage as a str person AS LONG AS the str person uses only one hand AND doesn't use their feats to improve combat prowess AND doesn't use their spells to turn to monstrous humanoids that give STR boosts and base weapon damage boosts that the elf version has no such similar boosts available.

Also, being sucky for many levels to eventually finally "come online" so late doesn't seem like a good deal for this fairly even trade of power.

Like sure it works out okay, But I'm not seeing how it's "clearly superior" by ANY means. Now if there's something I'm overlooking in this comparison please share.
Perhaps it's just largely a difference in how useful multiple potential AoOs are, or a difference in how good reflex saves are.

JoeElf wrote:

I built an Aasimar Bard mainly to get the +1/6 to a performance. Inspire Courage is +2 for a level 5 Bard, then +3 for a level 6 Aasimar who took the racial FCB 6 times. Toss on Flagbearer for +4 [albeit morale]. And then get the Banner of the Ancient Kings so at level 7 you get the bonus as if you were level 11 = +5.

Of course, the Charisma bonus of +2, Wisdom +2, Diplomacy +2, and Perception +2 are enticing as well.

That's not how that FCB works. It lets you treat your level as 1/6th higher for a specific performance (inspire courage)

So at lv6 you inspire courage bonuses are that of a lv7bard. Meaning it's only useful at lv10 to get the +3 bonus of lv11 or at lv6 with the banner, but then you also never reach move action activation which makes that combo less attractive.

Choose one bardic performance; treat the bard as +⅙ level higher when determining the effects of that performance.

You should be able to win in AC pretty easily. WP is looking at full plate +9 dex +1 and then normal upgrades as they probably won't "waste" fervor to quicken a shield of faith for a little AC.
A monk just needs to get this 10 AC and then they win. Wis 3, dex 2, mage armor 4, monk AC increase 1 and barkskin being faster than an amulet already is putting you over the AC the WP is likely to have.
It's just in overall combat they will likely perform better.

it is a rage class feature.

"If an ally has her own rage class ability (such as barbarian’s rage, bloodrager’s bloodrage, or skald’s inspired rage)"

so sure, raging song as a whole isn't rage class feature, but the inspire rage song is a rage class feature.

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Moonheart wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Well I up to being convinced if you can provide convincing evidence. I just don't feel you've done that.
Why don't you try to calculate it yourself?

cause I'm not the one trying to prove your view

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Moonheart wrote:

Even with a +2 headband... oh, well, whatever.

I've already said I'm dropping the topic... there is no point to discuss this with people that had their opinion set even before I start talking.

Well I up to being convinced if you can provide convincing evidence. I just don't feel you've done that.

Ferious Thune wrote:

Simpler way to think about it... look at the table for level 8 Monk. Add your BAB from other classes to each attack.

Leve 8 Monk: +6/+6/+1/+1

Level 3 Brawler: +3 BAB

Totals: +9/+9/+4/+4

Herolab seems to be counting you as having a +11 BAB and getting your second iterative, but I don't think that is what should happen, as you don't actually have a +11 BAB.

When doing the monk flurry his bab from monk jumps to 8. Thus when flurrying he does have 11 bab.

Moonheart wrote:
You need an int item even with the STR build, or you will not be able to cast 5th/6th level spells.

a +2 headband, that's a lot cheaper than a +4.

So also it seems like the Elven build is factoring in 2 +4 items opposed to the one +4 item needed by the normal builds. So that's a lot of gold extra for the elven build.

Archetypes don't change because of other classes you have. Cause that +3 damage applies to all the close weapons listed in that group and some of them are 1d6 or 1d8, so there's no need to worry about needing to nerft it.

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