Alignment's are not stupid (as the only respondant said), however the way we try to pigeonhole characters into stereotypical actions based on them is.
And somehow it becomes apparent that we've all been spending 90% of our effort arguing over what alignment means rather than the reason why there's no Chaotic whatever Techno Outsider, despite that being relatively sensible within the rather flexible Alignment Spectrum, and Technological Outsiders already exist for the Lawfuls.
...I'm pretty sure the post I'm quoting might even be breaking one fundamental rule of (Competitive) debating anyways...
...Whatever minor point you're arguing, link it back to the Topic guys. It's not that hard. Heck, its basic English class Essay rules even.
Let's move on shall we?
(Also, I'm pretty sure the fact alignments aren't stupid and are flexible is pretty much the starting assumptions for the argument we should be having to even exist. And aside from one person, nobody has really found issue with it. So calm down, you're wasting energy on something others have already addressed.)
So far as it goes, mechanical aesthetics are associated with Law because a machine, particularly a gear works, consists of many parts subsumed into a greater whole, each with an assigned role that must be performed exactly and without deviation, lest the whole fail to function as a result. A machine is also emblematic of a lack of free will, unable to go beyond the limitations of its design/programming.
Except not all Programs are made with Limitations. Some Programs, such as Computer Viruses, A-Life Programs (Short for Artificial Life, they're basically evolving and near living computer programs) and AI built on Neural Networks do not necessarily have a "Limit" built into their programs and in some cases their state of thriving comes about by breaking the system.
Granted, we're talking computers now instead of regular machines, but the point is that each of these artificial systems does not have any "Limit" other than disk space. And often their goals aren't stated beyond the minimum required for the program to remain operating, and they often wind up learning and performing some weird behaviors when not in immediate need to do something.
Also note, if it were possible to create a program with all of the traits of the other self sufficient programs, you would wind up with what I would best describe as a CE Computerized Imp-Like-Thing. Either that or a Digital Protean-Like thing.
...Oh... One more thing... All of these programs are unpredictable as to their "Performance", and on any given run it's near impossible to figure out what they're going to do.
If we assume the pin being mentioned is a regulation sized pin of approximately 0.1cm, and considering the size of Angels in Pathfinder is above that, and given that an Angel might be forced to dance on the head of a Pin at some point, and all other conditions are "optimal" we can guess the answer as Follows:
One, as long as you consider having violent spasms to be dancing.
But of course, this requires the question of how many angels to be interpreted as "how many can dance similtaneously on the head of a pin".
Its quite possible the intended question may have been "How many are capable of dancing on the head of a pin" regardless of how many are dancing on said pin.
Proteans don't worry about scientific advancement. They just change the laws of the universe to suit themselves. They don't need to figure out how to build robots, if they want a robot they just decide a robot will be there, made out of marzipan and the sighs of bored blacksmiths or something. They don't really care about the laws of thermodynamics, they just make the crap up as they go along.
This brings up a new question... Have Proteans ever bothered to take on the form of something construct like? If theoretically they can look like as a base form or take on the form of whatever they want by bending the rules or reality... Then why haven't they?
At this point nobody seems to expect Proteans to have a fondness for Robotic style trends, which because they are beings who are claimed to thrive off doing things you wouldn't expect them to, almost assures that at least one protean does like Robots and would rather have their base form contain at least "Robotic looking" elements, even if some or all of the parts don't work the way reality would expect them to.
I don't even know how my brain survived that train of thought.
In any case... I kinda want to see someone come up with some radical concept for a Tech inspired Chaotic Outsider. Probably something like a Computer Virus-y thing?
Eh... Half expecting someone to pick up on that idea when framing this thread as an argument should probably have been expected.
Quintessentially Me wrote:
Okay... Nice counter points, but a little sticky in places.
Considerably the fact that since Chaotic tends towards accepting individuals and individual thought, then outright taking someone else's individual thoughts that make up a novel and individual solution on the issue to be an attack is kinda... Backwards?
But that's a side argument I suppose. The point as intended was more "Why does an Ideal Chaotic Scientist have to settle for one of the less Technological looking Outsider Forms while a Lawful Neutral Luddite/Amish might be rammed into the body of an Inevitable?" Rather than an argument about defining the Moral Spectrum.
I've been thinking about the whole Chaos Vs Law thing. And I'm beginning to wonder whether the way its presented is actually reasonable.
Most of the inventive minds I can think up are the type that would probably try novel approaches, deny sticking to set rules and question if the ones that are already there are right.
... That is hardly Lawful, is closer to Chaotic. And yet, despite that, its the Inevitable that wind up looking like the pinnacle of that era's science.
Wouldn't it make more sense for a a Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic good Scientist who spent their life trying to expand the boundaries of what they know and discard previous assumptions of rules of Society, Reality and Morality in the pursuit of science and truth want to have a spiritual body more symbolic of Science as well? Something that may be described as an "Adaptive Machine"?
And what of the more restrictive Lawful characters? If there are cultures or individuals who vehemently stick to rigid rules and ideologies, wouldn't at least some of them oppose Progress into "Forbidden" research into how the world works? Even it just because their tenants say so? Heck, might not some of them be uncomfortable with the idea of ending up looking like a machine like an inevitable does because to them such a far reaching modification to the natural form would be Heresy to them? If only because such self modification of the natural form is against their rigid system of Rules?
Basically... It feels weird to assume that Physical Law is somehow meant to be machine like, while chaos is organic.
Where's The Miku Hatsune Azata? Where's the Afterlife for the Amnish?
This may be modern sensibility taken a bit far here... But it certainly felt like SOME kind of dissonance to me, so I thought I'd Share.
If you guys have any similar quandaries where ignoring the MST3K Mantra leads to realizing the game's not perfect on a lot of issues, share them here if you want. I don't mind. There has to be other times Traditional Fantasy themes clash with something like this. And I'm not sure there's a dedicated thread for that yet.
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I wasn't trying to start a big argument. Just figured since the discussion over cats was settled we could talk about something else. ;D
Oh I don't mind, I get the feeling I take to arguing some things the same way the ancient Greeks/Romans did. Which is to say revel in and enjoyed it.
...Most of the Time. :3
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Well... In terms of Intelligence, they don't get too much, basically five points on average... They get a natural armor adjustment... And... About one or two abilities that are not that impressive for an outsider anyways.
(Unless I'm missing something about Improved Familiars here.)
In terms of whether they can go home though? Well... Looks like they have to find their own way back. None of the Improved Familiars I just looked up mention Reality hopping. And some texts say Imps being stuck in the material plane after their master has died is a real problem.
...But hey, considering from what I understand, the Improved Familiar practically signed up for the job, essentially having to be willing to be a Familiar... I don't think they'd be any more perturbed by that development that anyone else in that situation.
A Cat though? If their master dies, you have to realize that they just lost what's basically a father/mother, a brother/sister, a teacher, a companion, a source of food, the one that changed how they saw the world for the better, inspired them, gave them understanding, gave their life meaning, gave them a meaning for everything else as well, and practically defined them. They also gave them everything they might ever need to find their way and place in the world, and everything they need to master the world like few others of their kind can, especially since they have a high level of familiarity (Pun) with how magic works from their time with the Spellcaster.
A regular animal, recruited as a Familiar... Once they lose their master, they loose the one that gave them everything they have and have ever had... Literally, save for their own body.
...The fact they may get to keep it indefinitely after their death... That is the kind of infinite gratitude that will stay with them forever. Almost as if they own them their life.
But an outsider?
Its basically just what its like after your internship is over and you have to find a way to pay for a train ticket back to your home country. You've learned and gained plenty, and its a little sad but its not that bad, considering your friend and boss is probably going to be there when you get home anyways. And when you get back, you have a chance at a promotion to a new job... And that's about it. Unless of course you decide not to go home, in which case you also happen to have been given a free plane ticket to this place and get to stay.
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think a more interesting question is, "What happens to improved familiars like imps and lantern archons?" ;)
Not really, Imps and Lantern Archons are already kind of Intelligent. Or at least above 3 points of intelligence last I remember. So any interesting fact of being an uplifted intelligence would be missing.
Also... The behaviors of creatures like Imps and Lantern Archons after death is far too predictable. The Imp goes off and causes trouble and the Lantern Archon goes to be helpful.... Or they go home... Either way.
It's the regular house cat's actions after being uplifted to intelligence from their time as a familiar would be more complicated, not being motivated strictly by moral imperatives for one, and more to the point still grappling with their own existence outside their master's will.
So yeah, not getting why the outsiders would be more interesting here.
... And No, your Wink-ing emote does not clear things up.
Here's a Thought... What happens to a Familiar if the one they are bound to dies?
From what I can tell, a certain FAQ only covers what happens if a Wizard dismisses their familiar. And from what I can tell, since a Wizard dying doesn't dismiss their familiar, nor kills said familiar... It leaves a number of... Questions. Some are head scratchers, others are just musings.
For starters... Does the Familiar essentially get free roam while their master is gone?
If the Wizard is gone for good for some reason, do they get to go out and become Wizards themselves? Such as might be the case if they want to continue the Wizard's work.
What are the effects on a Familiar that remains infused with the soul of a being that has passed on since? E.G. Does a Familiar who sticks around long enough after their master's death to witness the day their master becomes an Angel feel the effects of this?
Do certain Familiars such as Cats have to learn to speak a language on their own to get by?
And here's the best part...
...What is life like for an "Orphaned" Familiar?
I look forward to hearing your takes on life for an Orphaned Cat Familiar. I'm sure it might make good campaign material.
I've spent some time Reading and meditating on these ideas presented... And I've now Come up with one idea.
First, one needs a huge Demi-Plane... It would take a while, but plausible. This is where the sun would eventually go.
Step two. Create a magical device that generates and stores charges for a buffed up gate spell, by using all charges on the one spell at once. And have it on an intermittent function timer till the stars have aligned to their positions they will be at the appointed time. This will be the way you get the sun into the Demi-Plane.
Step Three... Same thing, but with a construct designed to essentially pull the entire thing into the Gate Using a buffed up Telekinesis Spell built into it. I say Construct, cause It's kinda hard for a non-Construct machine to figure this out.
Step Four... Wait. Or, Alternately, put yourself into stasis with an intermittent function item around to pull you out at the appointed time.
Notes: Considering most items that gain charges gain them from others casting spells on them, one may need the spell charge device to be hooked up to a lot of Bound (Sleeping) Sorcerers. As well as be able to re-apply that spell as necessary.
A idle thought one morning got me thinking about a possible Campaign. One that might get thrown at me, or I might throw at others...
STEAL THE SUN!
The exact specifics of the sun, how it works, or what one means by "steal the Sun" can be left up to interpretation, but the point is still the same; The party must Stop the light of the sun from shining down on the characters' home planet.
So with this loosely defined quest, How do you suggest performing this activity?
If you want to be even more clever, come up with a plan for both a Pathfinder Setting based sun, and a more realistic Sun.
I hate to bring this one web comic into everything... But I shall anyways.
How about a Mythic flaw where the "Immortal" ability fails if the character's death is judged Heroic or Just? Just being that they deserve death, either through becoming corrupted and being slain by a hero, or else through causing something terrible, And Heroic being they that they fall while opposing a corrupt adversary or through a noble self-sacrifice for the greater good.
I'm sure some other Drawbacks could be fitted in there somewhere.
On the other hand, there's one idea somewhat my own...
Basically, the character is given a task by a deity, either good or bad. If they refuse the task, they not only lose their Mythic abilities, but they begin to rack up penalties over time that could reach the point of killing them from the penalties alone. Essentially meaning that they are the chosen Pawn of the deity, and whether willing or not, must fulfill their will for the rest of their life.
Now imagine that last one where the task is essentially "Destroy everything", and the character is fairly willing to do that...
For reasons that are... Setting specific, as well as for allowing better class synergy; I think it may be prudent to convert all daily abilities to working under a single pool... Specifically a Ki Pool.
Some of the ideas I've worked out, others I'm not sure of. And then there's the one's I have a fair idea of, but don't have the maths worked out for.
Here's What I've got so far for the classes that don't already have Ki.
Spell-casters: Spells can be cast using Ki, Which I imagine would generally cost 1/2 their Spell level rounded up. I'm presuming the Ki points would be worked out using a similar 1/2 equation for the spell slots.
Barbarians: Use Ki to activate Rage, Ki is burned during rage at a certain rate. I assume that they get a Ki point for each round of rage.
Cavaliers/Samurai: Presumably get a number of Ki points dependent on their normal uses of the challenge ability. I'm not sure which way the numbers would go. Spend a Ki point to use a Challenge.
I have no idea on some of the others. And I'm not good at mathematically working out the conversions.
Anyone know how to take this idea and run with it... without making it as unbalanced as all hell?
I'm kinda making this idea cause... some Super Epic level Campaign I've been planning for a long time is kinda... hard to keep going at full power when the various Multiclassed stuff end up making it feel like you can't use the full range of abilities to the extent one expects of Epic characters.
Like... a level 20 Ninja only has 10 Ki points for stuff without the Ability score modifier. But considering one of the supplements I want to use has a Ki power I'd expect to use hundreds of times a day at Level 100 (of various mixed stuff)... Well... Yeah. It's hard to do without synergizing it to heck and back.
Also something I'd like a relative Ki cost for: Elemental Fist.
(P.S. Due to some Minor questions over some... Stuff. I'm considering allowing multiple applying of the Modifiers. Mainly due to things like the number of rounds of Rage allowing a constitution modifier, when this isn't usually counteracted by anything like Ki points or whatever. But When Ki points usually stack, they only let you use one Modifier. or is a single modifier the cost of synergy?)
I say it could stand to be a little more blind, and a little more blind-sense and Blind sight.
At least if we're talking expectations here.
Measuring out the distances for the Oracle's Sights in reality, the 60 feet "Normal" vision is actually quite a fair distance. And if you're spending a lot of time indoors, you're never going to end up being disadvantaged by your "Normal sight", as most rooms I've seen in reality aren't 60 foot long. As for blind Sight, you'd have to have them right next to you before it mattered or did any good.
So yeah, I'd probably reverse the figures. making normal sight 15 feet, Blind sight 30 feet, Blind sense 60 feet.
But that's just my expectations. Practically in a campaign, the longer blind-sight is more useful than regular vision, save for when you need to read something.
Not that I don't think that such a boost in effectiveness isn't good, or that it's unbalanced. Just that it's not for everyone.
I'd use adjusted figures... But I'm sure few others will.
But I digress. I've gone a bit off topic, and this is just a tiny bit necromantic. So, oh well.
Darth Grall wrote:
Well, technically, a heavily Polymorph based Wizard could make the thing go full circle.
Human to Animal with Poly-morph any object, then back to humanoid with Anthropomorphic animal.
And no, I'm not creeped out by that. I've had nightmares that make that sound tame. Like turning into a Spidery skined being with no mouth after vomiting up a pool of silver liquid... after being bitten my an undead spider.
...And Nigel Thornberry was there. For like... no reason...
And for some reason I was a girl in the dream, specifically one of my cousins. Go figure.
If anyone think all that sounds like someone's fetish... congratulations... you've been on the internet a long... long... time.
Darth Grall wrote:
I mentioned a way of getting around the Dispel Problem. Create an item that does much the same thing as teh spell.
The real Thing here is that Sometimes... we're not talking about a normal animal. Sometimes we're thinking something more like... A Pegasus. Something that is already a Magical Beast.
Yeah... I'm not sure how one goes about that without modifying the parameters of Anthropomorphic animal.
But... you did mention shortcuts, such as the ARG. And though I'm not sure its entirely Appropriate to use the ARG when it doesn't seem to be... complete; The sentiment is the same.
Pretty much, considering the only thing I'd want to be changing is something never mentioned in the stat blocks anyways as being pressent or not pressent (Hands) one could just grab the stat block, roll up some ability scores, pick one of the race ability modifiers, and claim the spell was cast to make them anthropomorphic. Then add character levels.
I bring this up because a campaign I've been planning for ages is full of magical talking ponies like unicorns, pegasi and ... a bunch of druid ponies I guess, and it's kinda hard for the human form obsessed one to cast the RAW version of Anthropomorphic Animal on herself; being a Unicorn and all.
I feel like that last paragraph of mine just vomited rainbows. And I am laughing so hard right now.
If one treats it right, or perhaps uses my version, it becomes a way to get a few back-up characters... Cheap even maybe.
Say your Fighter just bit the dirt, and has been soul stolen. What do you do?
Oh look, that Anthro Animal that you've been training up with Fighter levels and stuff can do his job. That is awfully convieniant.
Granted, not many GMs are going to force one to go with that option,as most will just supply you with a new one at the next town you go through, but its good in cases where either the GM is cruel, or you're somehow stuck on another plane where the chance of running into another Human is... slim. Like you're in hell or something and there are somehow animals with you.
Also, it's possibly a good way of getting some kind of plot hook. Maybe you're playing animals that have been awakened by this spell, trying to get by in a world where they are seen as property.
It's more something to role-play than to use though I guess. But some of the limitations are... hard to work with for that.
That's why this thread removed like... 90% of the limitations.
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
You people make that sound like a bad thing...
Regardless, there's also the fact of those who have identities that conflict with that of humanity. Such as me.
I'm the kind that find it constantly awkward for my body to not have a pair of wings, or that I don't have a tail.
The fact that my Kitsune (Draconic) Sorcerers keep ending up hitched to a Human Ninja is probably noteworthy.
Okay, whether RAW or RAI there seems to be a few technical agreements on the spell Anthropomorphic Animal that I kind of find annoying when one considers the usual idea behind such a spell.
So, here's my personal rulings on the spell... make of it what you will.
1- Can work on either Animals of Magical Beasts. This is partly because the fact it can only work on true animals, when a lot of magical beasts are functionally or physically the same in form is crazy.
2- Animals that get this cast on them Become Magical Beasts, and remain such even upon reverting. General rules that Intelligent creatures above score 3 are magical beasts is part of the reason, as is my rule one; the other part comes next.
3- Reverting does not take away the gathered intelligence scores. Because it would be weird if they spent months gaining intelligence bonuses from reading magic Tomes, only to wind up back at square one.
4- Anthropomorphic Animals can gain Class Levels. Seems fairly obvious to me, considering Magical beasts sometimes can.
5- As a way of circumventing possible mishaps with Dispel Magic, I would totally allow the commission of wearable items that give the effects of Anthropomorphic Animal for as long as it is worn.
6- I would not force the creature to give up any natural attacks, or give up unarmed strikes if they have a bite attack. Because that wouldn't sound right to me.
7- I would not take away other movement types. An Anthro bird that can't fly doesn't sound right.
8- I would not take away special attacks... just... trust me on this...
I'm not sure why I actually feel the need to put this up on a forum... Other than just trying to make a point here that I'm not fully aware of.
If you guys like this approach. Then thank you... if not, I'll probably use it anyways.
...And suddenly I feel like an angry internet reviewer.
Okay, I've found an ability or two that Qinggong Monk can replace that doesn't conflict with Martial Artist. Add to this a few Ninja Levels to get a Ki pool and that should give us the Necessary abilities to, by RAW, bypass the Alignment stuff that keeps most characters from using a Ki-power attack.
...A Ki attack...Such as Ki Shout.
Now, I get the feeling this is incredibly stupid... So is there any way that this WON'T end badly?
I mean, replacing Abundant Step or High Jump for a power that they will at best, only get to use once, is a bit of a waste really.
(But still, it does allow one to pretend we're in some kind of Dragon Ball Z Game. So there's that.)
Pretty much, the only way I see it working out, is if the Charisma was boosted... incredibly high for more Ninja Ki.
...Not that that's a bad idea, just incredibly... Expensive to get one's hands on all those "Tomes of Leadership and Influence".
Something like... up to 40 Charisma maybe? that'd be... What, 15 Ki points plus the 3 or so from the 6 ninja levels so... 18?
...Man this is mangled... This sounds freaking crazy... Can this train wreck of a build actually amount to anything? Or is it broken beyond repair?
Lloyd Jackson wrote:
Oh hells yeah people! We got game! Force-fields, plasma cannons, laser rifles, chain-guns, rocket launchers, gear-men, androids, and this lovely, lovely line. "While the Technic League has developed magical solutions to some of these requirements, actual details on creating robots are beyond the scope of this book." Emphasis added.
I may not have to go with wizard for the group mechanic if the Numeria book turns out to have some details on non wizards doing... exactly what that implies.
I mean, for one setting I'm working on, only a few can use magic, while the rest... well... They would be using technology if the rules actually let them make it without a wizard present.
Yeah. You can Bet I'm sore from having to find a loophole to that. The closest I got was using a magic item as a conduit for spell-casting classes like wizards.
...which makes literately zero sense in the rules we currently have. And goes against at least half of what I have already got established.
I NEED THAT BOOK MORE THAN EVER NOW!
Hello again Mikaze, Funny how I bump into you every couple of threads.
I'd love to get a good look at Numeria. For at least a dozen reasons.
However most of them come down to "I've got this idea I've been planning that works best if I use stuff from Numeria in it." So I can probably roll that into "Loot".
And some other reasons come a little more involved. Such as getting characters that don't necessarily have to be wizards to make something like a Construct, or a weapon that is better than standard fare. And considering that I often end up with both setting and campaign ideas that involve a limiting of magic and a flourishing of technology, anything on that front is appreciated.
Also, Numeria sounds like a fun place. If a Barbarian can take over the place, and people are running around with what is essentially a "Fuel sniffing" habit I presume, and others have dozens of freaking light-sabers and other cyber swords...
I'm sure the appropriate stock phrase is "Shut up and take my money!"
Is your vision of blind sense/blindsight blocked by walls?
Blindsight doesn't let you see through walls. It's not X-Ray vision.
I find it odd one needs to mention that. It's described as "Line of effect", so it needs a more or less unobstructed path to the subject. Which means, that walls do indeed block it.
Well, for one thing, the Clouded Vision curse is just that... your vision is clouded, not absent. You are, specifically, not blind but you have difficulty seeing. And within your limited range of vision, you can see a lot more than what more mundane individuals might see. Furthermore, someone who's nearly or completely blind isn't going to be running around adventuring. They're going to be meditating in a temple or shrine. Clouded Vision means you have trouble seeing but what you do see is far more clear just as the Lame curse means you have trouble walking but what you can walk is far more sturdy. Lame doesn't mean you're completely paralyzed from the waist down; Clouded Vision doesn't mean you're completely blind.
That's kinda why I left the point of the normal vision for about 5-10 feet. Not blind, but a lot worse than Near sighted.
I measured out the distances in Real life, and 30 feet is about the width of the college common room I'm in. And 60 is bigger than the entire room. 60 feet feels to be around the distance my shortsighted mother can see. And all things considered, that's nothing special. And in an urban area is virtually zero hinderence.
Being able to see 10 feet forward in detail seems more natural for a clouded vision. It's just enough to see clearly someone right in front of you on the opposite side of a table. (Again, I measured) but still short enough that it's a genuine hinderence instead of a free pass in an urban environment where 60 is enough to see inside a store on the other. Side of a city street.
I admit, I guess that 5 feet is a bit small to start with, and as the increased limit, 15 feet might be more reasonable.
I'll go revise that...
Anyways, my general thought is that a character with limited normal vision should have their less detailed senses extend further than their normal ones.
Edit: Okay, I guess I can't edit the Origional post. So I'll post it here.
Okay... Since none have replied... Maybe I should phrase this another way, (which borderlines on a "rules question" topic) .
If a creature doesn't have normal sight, but has blindsight, do they have any disadvantages compared to normal sight to go along with the advantages?
Why bring up this topic? Well, pretty much, it's because that the more I think about this curse, the more it feels like it's not quite what one expects when one hears the thought "Blind Oracle". Cause at the higher limit, it pretty much seems to have the same range of vision as my "Merely short sighted" mother... who is nothing special.
I mean, it begins to sound like One could give them corrective glasses and call it a day.
So what happens when we adjust the figures? Game-wise anyways. As I myself can give an idea of each range myself. 15 feet maximum for normal vision is where it begins to feel more realistic for "Pretty much blind"
Of course, there's the question of What benefits they get in return. Which I'm kinda sketchy one what is game-breaking or not.
Assuming that Blind-sight doesn't give anything more detailed than the general shape of an object, that means that if their Blind sight went further than their normal sight, then they'd be able to fight effectively, but would have to be right next to someone if they wanted to recognize them without difficulty (such as needing a high difficulty perception check) or right in-front of a set of text to read it. (okay, that last one isn't bad unless you're looking for a specific shop I guess.)
So Here's some Rudimentary figures; and I'd like to know what kind of good or bad would they cause if used?
Normal Vision/Darkvision: 5 Feet, expands to 10 feet at lvl 5
Not sure if those numbers are good... or bad...
Still, its a more realistic depiction in my mind.
The Mercane (an outsider) could likely serve as an excellent messenger and go between for the various parties if you wanted to roll all of this stuff into one without hand-waving expensive magic items.
I'm pretty sure that's kind of a fickle solution. Especially since there's a small chance they may sell your stuff to the highest bidder.
...I'm guessing. They don't really seem the type to really be "Helpful" if it doesn't benefit them.
And well. It's more of a band-aid solution. Paying an outsider to do your work has like... three problems. You have to find one, you have to pay them, and you have to be able to trust them.
Okay, I already mentioned that last one. But yeah.
And I'm sure that in an extremely long campaign, the costs in time, effort and money to get a hold of one is going to be a problem.
Especially when one group may even be forced to go without a spell caster that would summon up the Outsider. And then who will find it for them?
A self sufficient party is better if possible.
Welcome to "Inter-planar Shenanigans" general. Post anything related to that and you should be fine.
Specifically, dealing with being in a campaign that requires several teams working across several planes.
I've got some of my own stuff thought up, but feel free to make your own suggestions... and maybe help me figure out the stuff I don't know about.
The best solution seems to be to create an item that can cast those spells at will. Which optimally would be things like Sending or Scrying... or both (possibly using sending to act as a ring tone to remind the one at the other end not to make a will save.) Of course, the main thing is to make them able to do those kinds of spells pretty much "At will".
I have no idea how the rules go for creating such an item, or how pricing it would go. So feel free to mention how that would work.
The best I can come up with is a kind of variant of secret chest; where instead of one replica, there are several; or perhaps another magic item that acts as both the focus and the spell caster; which could be synched up with each other through a process similar to sending.
In fact, it could be put on the same item as the communication item.
I presume a good solution would be to use another variant of Secret chest. And Create a Demi-Plane, and have a permanent planar portal placed inside the chest. And from there you can essentially move the portal where-ever you need by moving the chest. And since the chest can be sent to the ethereal realm...
The next question is how to get it go go other places than the ethereal realm. I guess the best way I can think of might be to use the recall for the chest to sort of bring it into the demi-plane it links to. And from there have a item that you can use to make a temporary gate, with which you use to kick the chest out of.
Even without the whole planar traveling thing, I'm sure that having a portal to your demi-plane that you can move around is useful.
Anyone with ideas that can make an adventure with teams in multiple planes easier should definitely post them.
Epic Meepo wrote:
Considering the crazy stuff alchemy already does, spontaneously generating a map is not beyond the realm of possibility.
I kinda Like the Champion's Armour Mastery, which makes Armour a lot less of a pain to live with.
Too bad that at best, getting it means you have to kinda choose between whether your Paladin spells are more important or your Sorcerer Spells if you're going dual path with Heirophant or Archemage.
Eh, I'll probably brew something up. Who says we have to stick so close to the "Only one other path's abilities" of Dual Path?
...Or on a more complex note, that we have to stick to the rules of "no tiers beyond 10, and only one path." (Which me being the overcomplicated being I am, would give a chance to choose a second path at tier 11.)
Everyone, if you're gonna get your pitchforks to lynch me for choosing that over "This just Might Work", just know that I still like it.
Also, Endless Power? That would be epic... if it could just go just one spell level higher and let me use Dimension Door till day's end. Still great though.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
That's good to hear; I'm looking forward to a Mythic Tier Epic Level Adventure.
...Although I'm going just fine treating epic levels of a single class as if it opens up the next 20 levels to be done as if from level one again with different archetypes. So what's the rush?
Personally, I'm now more interested in some kind of "Epic Mythic Tiers".
Think about it, the mythic rules so far sound a lot like how Demi-Gods are described; just add domains.
... The Pathfinder setting pretty much says the only thing that will kill a god for more or less permanent is another god. and High Mythic tiers seem to work the same way.
So considering a Campaign I've been more or less designing this whole time pretty much involves Mortals and Physical gods fighting alongside each-other on the same battle-field; Mythic Tiers sound like the perfect way to simulate a close approximation of that without... some of the problems I had with an old D&D supplement.
The only way it would be better, is if One could go just a few more beyond 10 Teirs and beef up some of the available Mythic abilities ... Or, simply allow the "Dual Paths" thing to work to let you take 3 paths of abilities instead of just two. (Kinda need Armour Mastery [Champion], Endless Power [Archmage] and the other Endless Power [Heirophant] for what I have in mind.)
That's probably all I can say. The rest is probably far too off topic for this thread. (Considering how far off track I've gone already) And a minor Groan about Dimension Door Not being Compatible with Endless Power is probably not something that deserves its own thread.
Most Anime just happens to run on mythic logic (Demi-godlike power for the heroes, and the rest are mooks).
I imagine that even lesser gods could theoretically work as Mythic tier Heroes with some... Perks. Such as having Domains that use double their Tier as their effective Cleric level. With the Domain spells being "At will" stuff.
Edit: And by point two, tying that back to Anime... Anime does tend to have a lot of Physical gods doing stuff.
...I like the idea of flaws. There may need to be some rebalancing, if only to stop the min/maxers with Dependency: Urine.
...Really? Straight to that?
Can't one be more creative?
I mean, I'd probably just go with "anything that contains sugar" and choose Wizard, that way I can Role-play L From Death Note.
But keeping to the spirit of min maxing. You'd be surprised how many times the words "I'll eat your face" can be thrown around as a silly threat. So "Dependancy: Face", would probably be a rather economic choice.
And then there's the real Min/Max idea of simply having their dependency be "Blood". Which, assuming you're playing a Vampire or Dhampir, is already easy to get, and part of the routine of staying alive. And if one is lax with the rules, one can always allow their own blood so even when bound and gagged, they can still bite their own tongue or lip, drink some blood, and bust out.
Okay, a quick read through of the Mythic Playtest Reveals... some stuff...
Without saying too much, some of it concerns Mythic vampires. And a bit of... lessening its weakness to sunlight to "Nauseated and some damage".
Now, there does seem to be one good way around the nausea problem, to the point it almost seems reasonable to have them walking around in mid day for short periods: one of the Oracle Curses "Wasting" gives imunity to Nausea at higher levels.
Of course, the curse does seem a bit odd to use flavor wise.
So, I ask: Are there other options for dealing with the nauseated condition? Is there any Raw options or not? And if not, could one get away with homebrewing something up like a "Sea-sickness pill"?
Also, would it just be easier to just reskin the curse? It pretty much doesn't do much physically, its just a bit of a penalty to most charisma checks; to the point it could just as easily work by the fluff of "Unnerving pressense" instead.
Or am I over thinking this? worrying for no reason?
Technically, the supplement describes Alter Reality being a Standard action... But that's beside the point.
The real problem is what you just mentioned... "Why be a caster?"
I want to avoid that conundrum.
Personally, it's not so much that it's overpowered "Per say", its more that it makes my setting's main requirement of mastering the sorcerer class to become a deity redundant. Or rather it makes even mentioning that the character has those levels redundant once they achieve deity hood.
...So yeah, A point system for how many times they can use Divine abilities would alleviate that.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
See if you can locate an old book called Primal Order. It is game system independant but has conversions for most of the old games. The conversions for D&D should work for pathfinder.
I took a look at the idea, and found that it looks like it would take a great deal of effort just to find the conversion notes.
However, it did give me an idea.
The Primal Order uses a system of points for channeling divine abilities, based loosely on the same way their divine rank works.
If one applies that idea to the Deities and Demigods supplement, then naturally they'd have a number of "Divinity Points" about equal to their divine rank, that could be used to activate most Salient Divine abilities.
Such a method could probably work...
Thanks Mysterious Stranger!
(Aside: Wow, that's a bizarrely satisfying phrase to say)
Sir Ophiuchus wrote:
I mean; It's like this.
-Gods walk among mortals as if they were equals.
As a side note, whatever system is used for working with godlike powers; it would be good if the system treated god powers as "A great boost to existing talents, but not an excuse not to apply yourself at one of the classes you use."
A god ability that makes class levels redundant is overpowered, even for a god.
A god ability that augments existing class abilities, even to great degree is fine though.
...After all, the campaign in question is Notably "epic level".
Okay... some campaign I've been planning has a slight problem...
How to define out the workings of player deities.
So far, I've only managed to remember one specific 3.5 Supplement that deals with it, and it has the unfortunate side effect of one specific ability it gives deities being... well... not just over powered, but actively makes spell-caster classes for them redundant.
I'll go on record now as saying it was "Dieties and Demigods", and the Divine ability in question was "Alter reality" (At will use of any spell up to LVL 9)
Is there anything I should do?
Use a different supplement? (I don't remember any others)
Your help is appreciated.
Okay, there was a bit of a discussion a while ago about whether it made sense that good deities restrict the use of negative energy, and that evil deities restrict positive energy usage.
...what made the discussion most credible, is when considering the good undead and other negative energy affinity creatures (Despite me only knowing of two.)
Considering I've made my own decision on whether it makes sense or not; I now want to ask the next few questions...
Would removing those alignment restrictions be a bad house rule?
Or would it do the exact opposite?
Basically, I want to know how stupid or smart such a house rule would be.
Especially in the presence of overly common good undead.
In real life, any problems involved with inbreeding usually have to do with negative genetic defects usually occurring more often in phenotype (expressed form) thanks to recessive genes.
The upside: a smart race might be able to use a keen eye to pick out the ones that carry those defects and root them out after a couple of generations. Leaving a mostly static, but healthy set of breeding stock.
From there, all one needs to do, is introduce mutations to a population of fair size, and note whether those mutations are positive, negative, or neutral.
And slowly the selective breeding should allow them to reach a point they are stable again. And possibly a little more evolved than before.
Synergy? I guess not. However the idea of having orders and challenges as part of the character's mechanics seem to sound reason enough in themselves. A magic knight in a true sense of the word instead of just... a Magus.
Flavor wise and Mechanic wise, the Magus isn't that appealing. They don't exactly get the widest variety of spells, and they are more described as some kind of fighter (read: mercenary or regular soldier) with a magical affinity.
What I'm more interested in is a Knight.
Back to synergy now: There were a couple of archetypes that tend to pop up when I consider a Wizard/Cavalier. Such as Musketeer+Luring Cavalier, and Spell-Slinger. Mix that with just a hint of Gunslinger and it sounds like it fits together enough to consider it. Although I'm not sure if it would be flavor alone or mechanics as well.
Anyways, to break this post down, what I wanted out of that character concept mechanically was this:
Okay... For various reasons, I keep envisioning both campaigns and character concepts that work better without any Armour.
Such as a Cavalier/Wizard character, a setting where Metal is expensive to use for anything other than weapons, and most important, the occasional thought of playing an epic level campaign or other situation where the dexterity modifier has gone through the roof and Armour is effectively useless.
So, is there anything I should do in such a situation? Or do they work perfectly fine without the Armour?
1) More Law & Chaos stuff. I would love to little bits a place somewhere in the universe (such as my Engine of Creation concept) where an uneasy alliance (with the occasional 'friendly fire accidents') of archons, inevitables, axiomites and devils work together to preserve some lawful site of significance against occasional attacks by protean choruses, abyssal hordes or, rarely, a qlippothic incursion. (Formians don't participate, as they don't play well with others, which, given it's an alliance that has both archons and devils in it, says something about the formians...)
Why not a counterpart to it? Okay, granted, the dynamic would be completely different as well, but I've got a thought.
Think of a place that exists as a sort of place for the various kinds of chaotic outsiders to gather and compete. And there, disputes between the three would be settled in tests of skill.
And when these games aren't going on, they could swap tricks they've gathered over the years.
...That's probably off topic though.
Azata have a nature-y theme. Archons go all over the place. Developments of either would be welcome, if for no other reason, so that good aligned spellcasters have something they can summon other than 'celestial tyrannosaurus' or such freakishness.
I saw that too. And I mentioned it, but I phrased it more as "Elemental Good", considering that Agathions are the ones with all the Beast people.
5) More Proteans. I like Proteans.
...I often notice... There's very little said about protean behavior other than "Destroy order, enact Chaos". I'd love to see that expanded or explained.
I mean, if they destroy the order in the world, will people be gone too? Cause that's kinda not so "Neutral".
What about generally helpful Proteans that simply just don't like how order dictates how things happen?
True, but there's quite a few spells and scenarios that call upon the celestials for aid.
... and then there's the fact that... some of the weirder sessions often involve PCs that are from among their ranks, and have business that involves going to the material plane.
-Both good reasons to consider. Along with others.
And though I don't want to admit it... Evil PCs and PC groups are quite possible.
I'd Personally Like to see more Azatas.
They've got an alignment I like, they've got some kind of "One with the elements" thing going on, and they've still only got... what? Five kinds?
I can already picture a few they could use.
-One for Moon, Night and Darkness.
Not to mention a few that would be... Dubiously interesting suggestions...
I'd like to ask something, and you can take it where you may...
What do you want to see done with Outsiders?
If you're not sure yet, here's a few questions to get you started:
->What outsider subtypes do you want to see more species put in? (Azata, Devil, Etc.)
I have a few personal wants, but I'll leave them till later, or this post might get long.
And suddenly I would like to share new info regarding the character's upcoming appearance in their source. (Sorry no better way of putting it.)
As such, Genuine Spoilers here. Not going to mention her name though, others have figured it out.
Okay, from what we've been Shown, in various spoilers:
-She's called to a test, thinking its an academic test; only to find its more of a heroic trial to save a foreign kingdom. Her attitude to this is essentially "I'm not prepared for this. But I'll do this, since you all believe in me." However It does take the Princess/Mentor several attempts to reassure her she won't fail though before it sinks in.
-Sings and Dances through the streets for a bit.
-Seems to announce a bit too enthusiastically to her friends, Who aren't up to speed on what's going on, that there's been a change of plans; and that instead going to Party to celebrate her passing a test, they are going on a road trip to a place that none of them have heard of before. Her only having heard of it a minute ago.
-The Kingdom she's saving is full of Amnesia. And she somehow comes up with a plan to fix everything, that involves Putting on a Carnival that incorporates things found in the kingdom's history books. Which all of her friends help her with.
Not sure how well these apply to Law vs Chaos, but good to note new information as it comes in.
But it's not like It's anything concrete, considering its only 8 minutes of screen time to work with.