Let me start by saying how relieved and happy I am to have found this game. Not only does it look like something revolutionary, but the player/fan input and staff responses have been awesome. I get the feeling that when you say something on these messageboards, someone in charge of development sees it. To me, this is definitely the right way to build a game.
I wanted to fire up a discussion about the ranger: How it's class abilities should be implemented, changed, etc.
Combat Styles:
I really fear that at launch, there will only be the two weapon fighting and archer styles. Since my first encounter with the ranger in neverwinter nights, I thought "This guy is awesome. But if only I could give him a greataxe!" We shouldn't have to wait for an expansion to have the option of a real TWF ranger.
Animal Companions:
I admire the diversity of companions allotted to druids in PF (and rangers with the beast master archetype), but I think that options should be open for everybody. The limit on rangers' companions to a small list of creatures seems unfair. It's not about balance, it's about individuality.
I would also much prefer a game where I have real options. In some D&D computer games I've played, there is always a relatively tiny list of companions, most of which mammals. I think some unconventional options would be cool. For example:
-Giant Spider (This one was in the neverwinter games and was a load of fun, and pretty to look at.)
-Dire Bat
-Monitor Lizard
-Giant Frilled Lizard (Which exists in the bestiary I, is large enough to be a mount, but sadly has no companion rules).
-Giant Beetle
-Axe Beak (As far as I know, this is a paizo creation, and I like it. Also, ridable!)
-Giant Crab (Because you know, crazy people play computer games too).
-Goblin Dog
-Megalania or some other large sized reptile mount
-A snake of some sort
Stealth:
It seems paizo is taking the stance that stealth should be an invisibility buff. I argue that rangers should be capable of stealth just like rogues, although I would understand if it wasn't as efficient (longer cooldown times to go into stealth, etc.) or if wearing medium armor made it impossible to hide. I definitely think stealth is an important part of the class, but also an OPTIONAL part of the class.
Goblin Squad Member
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I would think it would just be easier to be revealed if you are in stealth as a ranger.
It's been disappointing to not see ranged stealth classes in any non P&P game. I loved filling the role of a scout on my ranger, and I really think some kind of sniper prestige class would be an awesome addition later on.
Also. We should hold off on goblin dogs until goblins are a playable race.
It's been disappointing to not see ranged stealth classes in any non P&P game. I loved filling the role of a scout on my ranger, and I really think some kind of sniper prestige class would be an awesome addition later on.
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I wholeheartedly agree. I'd go as far as to say that sniping in stealth should be far more efficient in PFO than it is in the pen and paper version. That -20 to your stealth role to remain hidden is one of the most blatantly unfair rules I've seen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I hope any PC can use stealth, with certain Archetypes receiving specific advantages.
Agreed, assuming stealth is present I do think that it would be best for it to be a universal skill, with possible abilities for different archtypes that take advantage of being in stealth.
Personally I hope any PC can use stealth, with certain Archetypes receiving specific advantages.Agreed, assuming stealth is present I do think that it would be best for it to be a universal skill, with possible abilities for different archtypes that take advantage of being in stealth.
Maybe a ranger can only activate stealth on one of his favored terrains. This seems like a good common sense balance solution that will expand in power as the ranger acquires more FT's.
There is one other problem to consider, while we're talking about the stealth thing. In the neverwinter games, the only computer adaptations of DnD I've ever played, the animal companion could never successfully be made to hide, even if it was something like a jaguar or a dire rat with a stealth score through the roof. I hope this doesn't become an issue in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe a ranger can only activate stealth on one of his favored terrains. This seems like a good common sense balance solution that will expand in power as the ranger acquires more FT's.
Plausible, though we also greatly need to know more details on GW's plans for how to balance out multiclasses to really comprehend how it will work. Say if the first rogue merit badge grants stealth anywhere, and then you use the rangers stealth in favored terrain, and then massively add to the rangers limited location stealth, but then using it elsewhere, are they limited to some places, or are they seperate stealth scores, or how to fairly do this.
Now of course if there are some limitations on say abilities requiring X armor or weapon etc... to balance out the multi classing, then more can be workable, etc...
A different option is stealth itself can be possible by all classes, but different tricks are tied to classes that can be done from stealth. IE a special backstab for rogues that deals more than the normal backstab, a ranged attack, or a special ambush that works only on a rangers favored enemy from stealth etc...
Will save my complete ideal tool set for a later date. But to touch on a couple things.
I can honestly say I am not a fan of the beastmaster line. In PnP it has its uses, but that rarely translates well into mmos. Micro managing them often becomes a burden on you, the healers, any control classes or everyone in general.
I would prefer them as short term supplemental bonus effects. Sort of a "You appeal to nature for aid" ability. Based on either zone specific animals, or a predetermined animal of your choice, they heed the call temporarily attacking your foes. Now you can add in a wide range of effects. Detrimental, bonus attributes or more utility, or raw damage. Snakes could weaken enemies. Hawks could allow you to track your prey. Others could pin down, slow movement, do raw damage, pinpoint vitals, or any number of options that add more flavor than the traditional here is your pet tank and one for dps.
As for camo/silent steps or whatever it might be called, I don't mind it being conditional. Outdoors only, decreased movement rate, self only, and proximity based. With higher specialization ranks improving those areas.
Rangers generally being one of the most versatile classes, available weapon proficiency should follow suit. With two specialization points for melee and ranged. Can use longbow, shortbow, crossbow, but has a bonus applied to his optimal weapon of choice. Same would apply for melee options.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the topic of "pet class".
Most mmorpgs I've seen have combat-centric gameplay so the pet has to be a bundle of combat skills (attack, HP, buff/debuff) and commands UI to direct those skills for position and for timing efficiency in combat.
I think an animal tamed could be used in other ways as well. So a wolf would be a great attack animal in a fight (Sheer speed of these animals in attacking is crazy) but they might also be excellent in tracking also or bringing down game?
Likewise a hawk may be too fragile swooping at a humanoid/not worth the risk, but imagine if the ranger could "use the hawks eyes" and travel in it as it flies overhead and the camera could see from birds eye where you fly the hawk to track people or scout ahead? That would be very cool /warg style impact, maybe more druidic?
Again a jaguar or bear might be a mount for the ranger to ride around as well as an attack companion so they get a movement speed?
Limiting the pet to an attack-machine would be missing some opportunities. It could certainly be used in combat a little but not as a dominant/balancing mechanic would be a good representation of animal use with the ranger, I think? And use the animals extra-sensory flavors eg "detect" etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm well as long as the enviroment dictates what animal companions are avalible i am sure it will be fine. If modules are added it could expand this by journeys to far off places.
The ranger needs to be able to stealth but, not nearly as much as say a rogue. I think any character should be able to train in stealth since its not a class ability. Just having the characters stats, training and armor deciding how effective it is.
More discussion demanded
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I think along the terms of stealth for a ranger is a nice idea but would it not be more along the lines of Survival in the sense that the ranger would put up some type bind made from their surrounding thus allowing the ranger to effectively "Quote" Stealth at a distance.
My thoughts on the hole hunters bond with animals is iv always enjoyed the idea of having wolf, hawk, panther etc... but it can become a bother when having to not only manage your self and a pet with mmo's so i think making it so that depending on the type of animal bond you have would have its own added difficulty
for example:
Easy
if you wanted to have a pet but did not want to deal with having to control your pet in its actions you could take form the list below and gain ability's based on the animal
Hawk - Scouting bonus/ less penalty's with longer ranged shots
Snake - slow targets allowing you to gain more distance from melee/ immunity's to some poisons
Normal
If you were looking for more control over the actions of pet in the sense of basic attack and defend the list below could be some of the options
Bear - keep the attention of target/ keep multiple targets attention
Giant Spider - Hold Target in place/ poison targets
Hard
If you were looking to really wanted to set the bar you could choose an animal that would allow you to set up the style of attack and defense from the types of ability's by priority and have an action bar for their skills as well and the list below could be some options
Wolf - deal out burst of damage/ be used as a mount
Panther - Sneak attack/ Be used as a mount
but this is just a thought for possibility's and just another thought to throw out there I think it would be awesome if rangers that team up with the same type of animal for example:
if team rangers all had wolves for pets the could attack targets in a pack like manner same with other types of animals but this is just a thought.
and I'm sorry that this might be a long read but that is my take on the ideas flying around
