The APG states that when a summoner gains in level, he can change the evolutions of his eidolon. However, it isn't clear whether he can change the eidolon's base form. Can a summoner who goes up in level change his eidolon from, for example, quadruped to biped?
No. This was covered in a previous thread. Here are the highlights:
Reallocating EP is done as per the transmogrify spell. pg. 58
The transmogrify spell states that you cannot change the base form of your eidolon using the spell. pg. 250
The APG states that when a summoner gains in level, he can change the evolutions of his eidolon. However, it isn't clear whether he can change the eidolon's base form. Can a summoner who goes up in level change his eidolon from, for example, quadruped to biped?No. This was covered in a previous thread. Here are the highlights:
Reallocating EP is done as per the transmogrify spell. pg. 58
The transmogrify spell states that you cannot change the base form of your eidolon using the spell. pg. 250
Sorry, but you're wrong (at least to some extent).
You can't with the spell, that is true. Because the spell specifically states you can't (the spell text applies only to the spell).
The summoner itself states you can (and indeed must) reallocate EP upon leveling. The reason it's required is that you can't ever buy any of the larger evolutions if you don't reallocate.
However, the text in the playtest specifically called out you couldn't change the base form when leveling. I don't have the book with me, but it's been stated on the forums that that particular line of text was removed from the APG version. So, it appears, short of an errata that yes, you can change base forms at level up, but not with the spell.
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Hmmm, after rereading it 2 or 3 times, it becomes a DM call, or errata. It doesnt specifically say you can change base forms, but it doesnt specifically say you cant either.In the skills and feats section it does mention that they are set and cannot change and that you can lose the use of them when the Eidolon changes, but that is probably refering to evolutions.shrug, I'd prolly allow it in my games, just to keep things interesting.
Sorry, but you're wrong (at least to some extent).
You can't with the spell, that is true. Because the spell specifically states you can't (the spell text applies only to the spell).
The summoner itself states you can (and indeed must) reallocate EP upon leveling. The reason it's required is that you can't ever buy any of the larger evolutions if you don't reallocate.
However, the text in the playtest specifically called out you couldn't change the base form when leveling. I don't have the book with me, but it's been stated on the forums that that particular line of text was removed from the APG version. So, it appears, short of an errata that yes, you can change base forms at level up, but not with the spell.
This came up in the last thread too. It's basically just a matter of the text in the Evolution Pool entry on page 58. It states "Whenever the summoner gains a level, the number in this pool increases and the summoner can spend these points to change the abilities of the eidolon. These choices are not set. The summoner can change them whenever he gains a level (and through the transmogrify spell)."
It makes no mention of changing the base form, as the base form is not something that is bought or altered using EP. The omission of the specific statement from the preview doesn't imply a class option that is outside the RAW.
The best indicator as to the benefits and limits of the Evolution Pool class feature is the mention of the transmogrify spell, which is very clear that it cannot be used to alter an eidolon's base form. Even were it not clear, because the class feature regards only the Evolution Point mechanic, and the base form is unrelated to anything regarding Evolution Points, connecting the dots in order to allow further character options is strictly house rule territory.
Don't get me wrong, I like it as a house rule. I'm all about character options. But my understanding of the RAW says that, by the book, it's set at level 1.
Hmmm, after rereading it 2 or 3 times, it becomes a DM call, or errata. It doesnt specifically say you can change base forms, but it doesnt specifically say you cant either.In the skills and feats section it does mention that they are set and cannot change and that you can lose the use of them when the Eidolon changes, but that is probably refering to evolutions.shrug, I'd prolly allow it in my games, just to keep things interesting.
It did specifically say you couldn't change baseforms in the playtest. So, it seems that was removed. The question is, was it removed to save space, or to remove the restriction. Since they kept the text in about the feats and skills, I'm guessing it was the latter.
I think the easiest thing is just for everyone to FAQ the original post, and we'll hope they address it.
Well, whether a restrictive reading is correct depends entirely on whether you believe, as a point of philosophy, in restrictive readings or whether you believe, philosophically, in expansive readings, :-).No, it doesn't. Nothing says you can change your base forms, so you can't. If you want to go by the rules in the book, which personally, I seldom do.
As far as changing a fighter to a quadruped, there is nothing in the fighter class to suggest that such a thing might be possible, while there is quite a lot in the summoner class and the eidolon description to suggest that changing base forms at a new level might be possible (at least if you are of the expansive inclination).Well, both have just as much saying you can. What you mean to say is that it would make SENSE if the Eidolon could change base forms, but NOT if the figher could. But both have just the same number of support in the rules.
If you aren't in society play, I would suggest just asking your DM if he doesn't like the idea. Conceptually if you are summoning like, a horse spirit aspect, then he might say, no. But if you are summoning a fraction of a spirit of blood and hatred, or purity and light, then he'd probably say yes.
If you are in society play... well, no one will CATCH you, but I won't do it with my summoner, because it's cheating, and I don't want to cheat. At some point it will likely be addressed by the devs, and you'll probably be allowed to do it then.
Awakened Animals can take class levels. Therefore, a quadruped can be a fighter. Personally, a grizzly bear with 10 levels of fighter is a nasty thing to run across. :)
Personally, I think it would be interesting to run into one of those bears with ten levels of fighter mtd was talking about. With a couple of honeycombs and a few picnic baskets, think of the neat war stories you could get.
LOL,
especially if said bear took leadership at 7th level and had a brown bear sidekick cleric named 'Boo Boo'. :)
Well, whether a restrictive reading is correct depends entirely on whether you believe, as a point of philosophy, in restrictive readings or whether you believe, philosophically, in expansive readings, :-).No, it doesn't. Nothing says you can change your base forms, so you can't. If you want to go by the rules in the book, which personally, I seldom do.
The Transmorgify spell is essentially the same effect as level reallocation of evolution points in that it's permanent until the spell is either applied again or the next level up. In that text it is stated that the Base Form can not be changed.
I'm going to go with the interpretation is that that choice of a Base Form at first level is locked baring the intervention of greater than mortal magic.
If you can never change base forms, why specifically call out in the spell that you can't change base forms? I would take it the other way, since the spell specifically limits something in it's text, that indicates to me that you can change base forms at level change.
If you can never change base forms, why specifically call out in the spell that you can't change base forms? I would take it the other way, since the spell specifically limits something in it's text, that indicates to me that you can change base forms at level change.
With all due respect, they call out that you can't change base forms because you can never change base forms. They're not leaving any phantom rules unsaid. They mention that you can't do it, and they never specify any instance in which that rule is altered.
It seems to me that this argument stems from a line of text that was in a playtest for this class once upon a time. But the playtest is over, the final book is out, and whether or not they chose to do some editing doesn't change the fact that no where in the book is there a rule that says "When a summoner gains a class level he may, in addition to reallocating evolution points, change the base form of his eidolon."
Forget there was ever a playtest. Erase that memory from your mind and look at the comprehensive text. Society isn't running from the playtests (not to mention that if they were, you still wouldn't be able to change the eidolon's base form). The rule you're suggesting simply isn't there. Forgetting the text in transmogrify, if you were to erase absolutely everything from the book that doesn't say, with even the most general form of rules clarity, that a summoner can ever, for any reason, change the base form of his eidolon - you'd be looking at an empty book.
If you can never change base forms, why specifically call out in the spell that you can't change base forms? I would take it the other way, since the spell specifically limits something in it's text, that indicates to me that you can change base forms at level change.With all due respect, they call out that you can't change base forms because you can never change base forms. They're not leaving any phantom rules unsaid. They mention that you can't do it, and they never specify any instance in which that rule is altered.
It seems to me that this argument stems from a line of text that was in a playtest for this class once upon a time. But the playtest is over, the final book is out, and whether or not they chose to do some editing doesn't change the fact that no where in the book is there a rule that says "When a summoner gains a class level he may, in addition to reallocating evolution points, change the base form of his eidolon."
Forget there was ever a playtest. Erase that memory from your mind and look at the comprehensive text. Society isn't running from the playtests (not to mention that if they were, you still wouldn't be able to change the eidolon's base form). The rule you're suggesting simply isn't there. Forgetting the text in transmogrify, if you were to erase absolutely everything from the book that doesn't say, with even the most general form of rules clarity, that a summoner can ever, for any reason, change the base form of his eidolon - you'd be looking at an empty book.
Sorry, I don't buy that. It's possible it was left out of the base class by mistake or something during a copy/paste, but, if you remove in editing to save space, then you should be removing it from the spell.
I would still like an FAQ response, the summoner (as it is now) has sooooooo many exceptions around it that one more 'exception' in a spell for the eidelon doesn't in any way stretch the imagination. With so many odd game mechanics and special exceptions in this class I don't feel you can take anything for granted.
If you weren't aware of the playtest version of this class, what text in the APG clearly indicates that you *can* change your eidolon's base form when you level up or use transmogrify?
If you weren't aware of the playtest version of this class, what text in the APG clearly indicates that you *can* change your eidolon's base form when you level up or use transmogrify?
There isn't anything saying you can.
What you do have, Sean, is the explicit wording removed from the class description (it was there, but was removed in the final print), but the restriction on the spell was kept in.
It could be argued that...
Since the text doesn't say you can't...
And since the spell explicitly calls out that you can't with that spell...
Logically, that could lead to the interpretation that you can at level up, since if you can't ever change the base form, then there's no need to call it out that you can't in the spell.
Personally, I don't think that's the intent, having looked it over, but it is a reasonable argument. Which is the problem. Again, why the FAQ button is being punched on this.
EDIT : The above is especially logical if you didn't play in the playtest. Imagine someone coming at the APG cold, and seeing nothing in the class about not being able to change it at level up, but the spell explicitly saying the spell doesn't allow you to change it. That kind of implies you can, as you can see from the argument.
So:
1) There's nothing in the APG class description that says you can.
2) There's a spell that explicitly says you can't use that spell to change the base form.
3) The playtest version said you can't change the base form.
And you're concluding from this information that you *can* change the eidolon's base form? Even though there is NO text in the final, published book saying anything remotely close to "a summoner can change the eidolon's base form {when/how}"?
So:
1) There's nothing in the APG class description that says you can.
2) There's a spell that explicitly says you can't use that spell to change the base form.
3) The playtest version said you can't change the base form.
And you're concluding from this information that you *can* change the eidolon's base form? Even though there is NO text in the final, published book saying anything remotely close to "a summoner can change the eidolon's base form {when/how}"?
*sigh*
No, Sean. Please read my post above in it's entirety. I really do expect better from you, you're an intelligent man.
1) Nothing in the APG class description says you can't.
2) The spell gives a limitation. There's no reason to limit the spell unless you can do something. It's like having a spell that gives you an enhancement bonus to AC, and then calling out inside the spell that this bonus doesn't stack with enhancement bonuses from other sources. You don't do that. Why don't you do that? Because the rules for stacking already say you don't. By having nothing saying you can't elsewhere in the book, and then putting the limitation in the spell text, you're implying that you can change the base form. It's like creating a spell that allows Meepo's to Reaf once per day, but then calling out that it doesn't allow Meepo's to Stint when they Reaf (made up terms). If you read that, you'd have a logical conclusion that normally when Meepo's Reaf, they can also Stint, otherwise why call out that they can't Stint with this spell?
3) Again, I said look at the book as if you had never read the playtest. Not all your customers were involved in the playtest. Specifically, I had a player who asked this, who was not part of the playtest, and he raised the exact point above, asking why would the spell mention it if it was illegal to do in the first place?
If you would please actually read my post, you'll see I said I didn't think you could change the base form. What I did say was that due to the way it was put into the book and the spell's text, it implies there is a way to change base form, and that an FAQ would be a clarification. If you don't want to listen to that, that's fine, just ignore the thread and the FAQ, but please actually read what I'm posting in it's entirety instead of skimming the bullet points and assuming I'm arguing with you, instead of me trying to be helpful and point out an ambiguity in the way the rules were presented that causes confusion. It's kind of insulting to keep getting posts from you that says I'm arguing A when I posted explicitly that I'm not arguing A. It indicates that you didn't think my post important enough to bother reading. I understand you're busy, but if you're going to take the time to respond, take the time to make sure of what you're responding to.
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I'll repeat my first statement.
1) There's nothing in the APG class description that says you can.
So why would you think you can?
Whereas you say:
1) Nothing in the APG class description says you can't.
Nothing in the fighter class description says fighter's can't cast fireball at will. Do you believe that a fighter can cast fireball at will?
When a class gives you the ability to do something, its class description tells you that you can do it. It doesn't tell you what you can't do*, as that would make each class infinitely long ("The summoner cannot breathe water, jump over the moon, eat a million pounds of pickles in six seconds, invent the internet, time travel at will, thumb-wrestle Jesus, remove his eyeballs and see around corners," etc.).
So, despite the existence of other language in the book and playtest document that redundantly states that the class can't do X, why are you interpreting the absence of a can-do statement in the actual class description as implying that the class does grant that ability?
Forget it. I pointed out something that came up in our group while discussing the class, several other people in the thread were confused about it, yet somehow I'm the poster child for being too stupid to read the rules?
Instead of taking it as polite constructive feedback, you've repeatedly misconstrued what I've said to say I'm advocating that states you can, when all I was doing was pointing out that several people have had confusion over the way it was put and how it can logically be fuzzy due to the way it was put in, especially if someone didn't play the play test or read it.
The very fact this stupid thread exists underscores the point I was trying to make. I will be sure not to bother trying to give any feedback in the future.
("The summoner cannot breathe water,...SPEAK FOR YOURSELF OLD MAN
LOL
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I'm sorry that you're getting upset, but just because some people are getting confused about it doesn't mean it's actually confusing.
Nowhere does the APG say a summoner can change the eidolon's base form. It doesn't say when, it doesn't say how, it doesn't say how often, how much it costs, or what kind of action it is.
It doesn't matter if every feat and spell from here on until infinity says "this does not allow a summoner to change his eidolon's base form," such text, even 500 incidents of it, does not imply that the summoner can ever change the eidolon's base form. If this is confusing people, well, you can't write something so it's 100% comprehensible to everyone. Skip used to get Sage Advice questions where people wanted to know if they had to take Power Attack before they took Cleave, and I think we all agree the rules for that are pretty clear and don't need any clarification.
Could the class text be made even clearer by adding a line saying, "once chosen, the eidolon's base form cannot be changed"? Yes. Lacking an explicit rule saying that, is there anything in the class suggesting the base form can ever be changed? No. Should a reasonable person, unable to find a specific rule stating they can change the base form, realize that they can't? Yes.
I'm sorry that you're getting upset, but just because some people are getting confused about it doesn't mean it's actually confusing.
Nowhere does the APG say a summoner can change the eidolon's base form. It doesn't say when, it doesn't say how, it doesn't say how often, how much it costs, or what kind of action it is.
It doesn't matter if every feat and spell from here on until infinity says "this does not allow a summoner to change his eidolon's base form," such text, even 500 incidents of it, does not imply that the summoner can ever change the eidolon's base form. If this is confusing people, well, you can't write something so it's 100% comprehensible to everyone. Skip used to get Sage Advice questions where people wanted to know if they had to take Power Attack before they took Cleave, and I think we all agree the rules for that are pretty clear and don't need any clarification.
Could the class text be made even clearer by adding a line saying, "once chosen, the eidolon's base form cannot be changed"? Yes. Lacking an explicit rule saying that, is there anything in the class suggesting the base form can ever be changed? No. Should a reasonable person, unable to find a specific rule stating they can change the base form, realize that they can't? Yes.
And that's fine Mr. Reynolds.
That response would have ended my posts earlier. I pointed it out, you respond with something like this. I'm fine, you're aware of it. You're fine, you answered a question.
Your earlier responses kept reading like you weren't reading what I posted, and were instead deriding me for being too dumb to read basic wording, which was not the case. I'll assume that was not intended, and instead can be knocked down to being busy. My apologies if I came across as rude, just that I have enough trouble with people not paying attention to what I write in my job (if I had a $1 for every time someone ignored 3 things I wrote out of 5 and then derided me for 4 and 5 without reading 1-3 which explained 4 and 5, I'd be able to buy Paizo out of pocket change) :), so I'm probably a little sensitive to it in an environment where I don't have to swallow the bile and grin and explain myself 3 or 4 times over and over again. :)
Should a reasonable person, unable to find a specific rule stating they can change the base form, realize that they can't? Yes.Rules Lawyers don't count as reasonable, do they? :)
Praise the <insert diety or dieties here>!!!!!
YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!
:)
If you can never change base forms, why specifically call out in the spell that you can't change base forms? I would take it the other way, since the spell specifically limits something in it's text, that indicates to me that you can change base forms at level change.Because basically there have been tons of posters in the forums who have shown that they will try to weasel any spell that leaves the door open or ask any stupid question that's not directly addressed. Case in point: The magus has abilities which are used by burning prepared spells and fueled by the level of the spell in question, yet the designers feel obligated to point out that cantrips being zero level spells will not suffice.
The only way to keep magic and casters from going out of control is if at any time two interpretations can be made of a rule, you must go with the more restrictive one.
I don't have a problem with that, honestly. I just think the same logic should have been applied to the base class description, and the line about not being able to change it kept in as well for clarity.
Still, time to stop beating the dead horse. :) I've posted my feelings on it, dev has responded, end of discussion. :)
Sean, just do what I do, when I disagree with a rule or a system in the system I look for a reason ~why~ this is this way. Then I ask myself how to get around it.
The most obvious method is make a character that is likely to survive only up to the point where you want to bring in the other character since it is now valid without stupidly bad negatives (Look at my Dual Wielding Light X-bows joke build, but that could still be done well with a weap prof feat instead of rapid reload or have it use Bows [the more powerful option overall]).
The reality is that it all boils down to if you don't like a rule, and if your DM doesn't keep a tight leash on the party then just change it without consulting him. It is underhanded, it is sneaky, but then again if you think a decision by the Designers is a stupid one then Munchkin Rules Apply (It isn't against the rules unless you get caught) if you are playing a sub-optimal character already. If all else fails you can always just say that is how you thought it worked.
Hell, I'm playing through Second Darkness as a werewolf Warrior 1 that is, as of right now, relatively invincible. So, what do I do? I stand at the back (or the escape route for the enemies) and tear them into shreads if they try to run away from my party.
Remember this: It says VERY CLEARLY in the Core that the designers are not the gods of the machine, and even in their limitless wisdom they will make design decisions that work in the system. They also point out that these rules are intended to be broken if they don't work for you. This is, of course, aimed at the DM, but this just means you have to persuade your DM or just break the rule outright without consent.
Seriously. Think about it. How often does your DM ask you what your Eidolon looks like? From day 1 he has an idea that he sticks with, and unless it pulls out some new and strange ability that it shouldn't have, E.G. your bi-pedal eidolon suddenly being able to be a mount, you shouldn't have a problem.
Sean is right that a level 1 Fighter cannot cast Fireball at-will (Unless he is a level 1 Leonal fighter), but he is wrong that any character cannot "breathe" water. They ~can~, but it is just not recommended due to the onset of holding one's breath rounds and probably vomiting, sickness, fatigue, and all around wanting to not do that and breathe air again. Not to mention said character will probably break the 4th wall and bush-whack its player.
All this really boils down to this:
Find a DM who is extremely aware of how to kill characters--My favorite is still teleportation 200ft up, or telekinetic sphere into lava, sending a rogue with a greater invisibility potion to Goup De Grace sleeping chracters, .etc--and tell him how you want to bend or break the rules. More often than not these experienced DMs will rule in your favor since if you get out of hand your demise will be swift.
All this said, aside from NOVA magi who can pump out, on average, 105+weapon damage from a full attack with a spell storing weapon (10d6 shocking grasp), a held (10d6 shocking grasp) and a casted during full attack (10d6 shocking grasp) there isn't much that is so broken I wonder if it was just overlooked by by the designers. There is a lot of wiggle room before most characters even get anywhere near the grey area of being broken.
Errr. Two years of thread necrosis aside... Evolutionist archetype at 8th level can now change the eidolons base form per ultimate magic page 79... Thats the only place where I can see that it IS possible and its only possible each time the evolutionist gets a new level...
Actally, optional rules from Ult Campaign, not Unchained.
Retraining rules are optional rules from Ultimate Campaign, and they are pretty dang common.
But being able to retrain the form doesn't mean that you can't change it at level up too. They also talk about retraining evolutions, but we know we can change those at level up. You're stuck with those skills and feats though, so... I wouldn't recommend changing base form in most cases.
Personally, I don't think you can change your base form at level up, because I can't find anything that suggests you normally can. I don't see a problem with allowing that though. More options are good, and I can't see this being particularly abusable.