A gish is, as I understand it, a character who combines spellcasting with fighting. The original gishes were, I think, multi-classed fighter/wizards. The Magus is sort of that.
I wonder. First, are there other viable combinations of spell-casters and martials? Bard/Swashbuckler maybe? Barbarian/Psychic? :-) In the PF2E multi-class dedication which way would you go? Spell-caster with martial dedication? Martial with spell-caster dedication? Would you rather have the dual-class optional rule available?
Let's say there's a dozen (purely arbitrary number) viable "gishes" per the rules, including one or more dual-class ones. If you put them all in an arena and tell them to fight it out, will one come out a clear winner? If so, which one? Let's assume whoever is playing these guys is an expert at playing the game and playing the character, so he makes best use of the character's abilities and is not over shown by some other player's ability.
Be an interesting thing to set up in roll20 or Foundry or whatever. Maybe the Order of the Amber Die would find it interesting. :-)
Hmmm. Interesting question.
Fighter/Cleric dual class would be pretty high on the list of having a good chance to win in a battle royale style of fight. Tons of healing, good self buffing, good armor, and great with weapons, complimentary saves.
For singe classes magus is pretty nice GISH. I do consider the druid with untamed form a GISH.
As someone who plays often with the dual class optional rule, with double down on certain (mostly martial/martial) combos forbidden, I seen quite a lot of gishes
of course the combination opens up some options that would otherwise be hard to pull off, but on the other hand it shows some of the potential there is
Fun Combinations we had (most likely work with multiclass archetypes):
Monk/Animist - the high AC with Discomforting Whisper from the Impostor in Hidden places is a nasty combination, you can also further increase AC with divine magic
Ranger/any Caster - precision edge triggers the first time you hit anyone in any particular round, which does work with spells
Bard/Swashbuckler - has two great combos, the wit swashbuckler can lower the target will dc to get panache, which makes most occult spells easier, the bard in turn is great for buffing the hit chance with warrior muse making the action economy easier
Rogue/Witch - makes for a great ninja, can cause fear and off-guard and easy leverage it
In PF2e, there are a few ways to play a "gish."
A bloodrager barbarian can mix fighting and spells.
A warpriest cleric with Divine Weapon (and possibly Channel Smite) can work, depending on the deity (and font).
If you expand the concept to more than just melee strikes, then spellshot gunslinger (with Spell-Woven Shot) and more general archetypes (any martial class) such as beast gunner and eldritch archer are options for "ranged gishes."
In PF2e, there are a few ways to play a "gish."
A bloodrager barbarian can mix fighting and spells.
A warpriest cleric with Divine Weapon (and possibly Channel Smite) can work, depending on the deity (and font).
If you expand the concept to more than just melee strikes, then spellshot gunslinger (with Spell-Woven Shot) and more general archetypes (any martial class) such as beast gunner and eldritch archer are options for "ranged gishes."
Battle Harbinger cleric? Maybe better than warpriest?
Battle Harbinger cleric? Maybe better than warpriest?
Not with the battle harbinger being a wave-caster and no longer having the heal or harm font.
The battle arena format is challenging for this assignment because PF2 is such a team game. Like, you can build a punishing striker with something like a monk MC’d Druid, cleric or even oracle/sorcerer, but your defenses will lag and while that character can be devastating next to a guardian or a champion, they will go down very fast by themselves.
And then builds that can self heal, but spend actions doing it are going to get absolutely mauled by the strikers very quickly, so it would all really come down to tactics and who can avoid drawing any attention early on, so doing something like making mistakes and hiding in it/not fighting hard in the early rounds would work better in this setting, but not at all reflect how players mostly set out to play.
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For singe classes magus is pretty nice GISH. I do consider the druid with untamed form a GISH.
Agreed. I also consider Kineticist a Gish under certain builds.
Ranger/any Caster - precision edge triggers the first time you hit anyone in any particular round, which does work with spells
I recommend checking with your table and GM on this one. I don't disagree with the ruling, but there are plenty of people (myself included) who consider 'hit' and 'critical hit' to be a game term referring to physical attack rolls - not spell attack rolls and certainly not spell damage that uses saves as defense.
But 'hit' is not explicitly defined that way, so the rule is ambiguous enough that both rulings are valid.
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Monk/Druid or Monk/Cleric is pretty good as well with dual class. Untamed Form works very well for a monk. Primal still gives healing.
I have never played a Thaumaturge, so I don't know if one can be used for this purpose. Anyone want to chime in?
Thaumaturge is very action heavy, I don't think it'll pair up nicely with most casters simply because you're going to have a lot more stuff to do than actions to do it. Exploit Vulnerability also doesn't work with spells (Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis both rely on strikes).
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I think the greatest hindrance on a Gish build in PF2 is the action economy. Which is something even dual classes builds will struggle with.
For Gish without dual classes, I feel Summoner is best because of their mighty Tandem actions.
With dual classes, a Monk/Summoner sounds pretty badass.
As does a Gunslinger/Investigator with an Arcane or Occult caster dedication for Sure Strike/True Strike.