Skeletal darkvision

[azjauthor]

The "basic undead benefits" include:

Quote:

Undead Vision: You gain low-light vision, or you gain darkvision if your ancestry already has low-light vision.

So if you have an elf that gains the ghoul archetype, the new creature gets darkvision. That makes sense.

The skeleton isn't an archetype, it's a standalone ancestry. But the skeleton, thematically, does "already" have an ancestry before becoming a skeleton. It seems like an elf turned into a skeleton should also have darkvision.

So I guess it's an order of operations question. Is the character considered to "start" with its original ancestry, and then that ancestry is completely replaced by becoming a skeleton? If so, then the Undead Vision benefit would turn low-light vision into darkvision for an elven skeleton.

Ironically, though, if the ancestry starts with darkvision - like a dwarf - then the wording of Undead Vision doesn't explicitly let you retain the darkvision even in this interpretation. (Again, a dwarven ghoul would not lose the darkvision.) I would probably house rule that you keep the darkvision, but it doesn't seem like that's how RAW works.

Am I missing any clarification or errata anywhere that has covered this scenario?

The Advanced Undead Benefits do also grant darkvision, and I'm a little surprised there isn't a skeletal feat that lets you upgrade to the Advanced Undead Benefits.

[shroudb]

Your Ancestry is "Skeleton".

It doesn't matter (in the sense of setting an Ancestry) what you were before you became a skeleton in this case, it only matters for thematics and flavour.

You can ofc say that you are a skeleton originating from an elf, or from a dwarf, or from a human, but similarily to how if you were a skeleton of a lizardfolk you don't get a tail attack (even though you have tail bones) or a skeleton of a minotaur doesn't get a horn attack (despite having skeletal horns), similarily you don't get Darkvision because your origin was an Elf.

[The Raven Black]

shroudb wrote:

Your Ancestry is "Skeleton".

It doesn't matter (in the sense of setting an Ancestry) what you were before you became a skeleton in this case, it only matters for thematics and flavour.

You can ofc say that you are a skeleton originating from an elf, or from a dwarf, or from a human, but similarily to how if you were a skeleton of a lizardfolk you don't get a tail attack (even though you have tail bones) or a skeleton of a minotaur doesn't get a horn attack (despite having skeletal horns), similarily you don't get Darkvision because your origin was an Elf.

You can RAW be an Aiuvarin Skeleton.

But it does not grant you Darkvision.

Dhampir, Duskwalker or Nephilim Skeleton PCs, for example, would get it though.

[azjauthor]

The Raven Black wrote:

You can RAW be an Aiuvarin Skeleton.

But it does not grant you Darkvision.

Dhampir, Duskwalker or Nephilim Skeleton PCs, for example, would get it though.

That is a good example. Heritage is part of your ancestry, so for a Aiuvatin Skeleton I would say your ancestry does give you low-light vision. The Undead Vision would seem in that case to upgrade it to dark vision. The only way to rule that out would be to put a lot of significance on the word "already."

[HammerJack]

The Raven Black wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Your Ancestry is "Skeleton".

It doesn't matter (in the sense of setting an Ancestry) what you were before you became a skeleton in this case, it only matters for thematics and flavour.

You can ofc say that you are a skeleton originating from an elf, or from a dwarf, or from a human, but similarily to how if you were a skeleton of a lizardfolk you don't get a tail attack (even though you have tail bones) or a skeleton of a minotaur doesn't get a horn attack (despite having skeletal horns), similarily you don't get Darkvision because your origin was an Elf.

You can RAW be an Aiuvarin Skeleton.

But it does not grant you Darkvision.

Dhampir, Duskwalker or Nephilim Skeleton PCs, for example, would get it though.

Duskwalker doesn't belong on this list. It is not possible to be a duskwalker and any kind of undead.

[Claxon]

From a rules standpoint, you have no previous ancestry, and choosing between different ancestries from your skeleton to derive from should have bonus or penalties.

As a GM, I would rule you wouldn't get Dark Vision.

[The Raven Black]

HammerJack wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Your Ancestry is "Skeleton".

It doesn't matter (in the sense of setting an Ancestry) what you were before you became a skeleton in this case, it only matters for thematics and flavour.

You can ofc say that you are a skeleton originating from an elf, or from a dwarf, or from a human, but similarily to how if you were a skeleton of a lizardfolk you don't get a tail attack (even though you have tail bones) or a skeleton of a minotaur doesn't get a horn attack (despite having skeletal horns), similarily you don't get Darkvision because your origin was an Elf.

You can RAW be an Aiuvarin Skeleton.

But it does not grant you Darkvision.

Dhampir, Duskwalker or Nephilim Skeleton PCs, for example, would get it though.

Duskwalker doesn't belong on this list. It is not possible to be a duskwalker and any kind of undead.

And here I thought I was on the path to a thought-provoking PC. But you are right.

I just might create a PFS PC as a Dhampir Skeleton Necromancer with Summoner Dedication to get an Undead Eidolon. For all out Undeath goodness.

[Dunwright]

RAW your ancestry is just Skeleton and whatever you want to say your skeleton was made from is irrelevant (it might not even be just one thing, since the skeleton ancestry describes seeking out new bones to mend yourself as its undead hunger). The Skeleton ancestry is not a template being applied over something else. If you wany to ignore RAW and use flavor to effect your vision abilities mechanically, consider that skeletons don't even have eyes.

[shroudb]

The Raven Black wrote:

HammerJack wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Your Ancestry is "Skeleton".

It doesn't matter (in the sense of setting an Ancestry) what you were before you became a skeleton in this case, it only matters for thematics and flavour.

You can ofc say that you are a skeleton originating from an elf, or from a dwarf, or from a human, but similarily to how if you were a skeleton of a lizardfolk you don't get a tail attack (even though you have tail bones) or a skeleton of a minotaur doesn't get a horn attack (despite having skeletal horns), similarily you don't get Darkvision because your origin was an Elf.

You can RAW be an Aiuvarin Skeleton.

But it does not grant you Darkvision.

Dhampir, Duskwalker or Nephilim Skeleton PCs, for example, would get it though.

Duskwalker doesn't belong on this list. It is not possible to be a duskwalker and any kind of undead.

And here I thought I was on the path to a thought-provoking PC. But you are right.

I just might create a PFS PC as a Dhampir Skeleton Necromancer with Summoner Dedication to get an Undead Eidolon. For all out Undeath goodness.

You can even easily flavour your "Eidolon" to just be your fleshy body, like a boneless zombie or something.

So you'd have the necromancer skeleton who tried to make himself whole again, and instead he brought back his body as a bonded but separate entity lol.