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Critical Success You push your target up to 10 feet away from you. You can Stride after it, but you must move the same distance and in the same direction.
Success You push your target back 5 feet. You can Stride after it, but you must move the same distance and in the same direction.
Q - if you're on difficult terrain how does it effect or reduce the push effect on the opponent and your stride after them?
The line about "the distance you move is defined by the effect that moved you, not by your speed" I think is primarily to tell players that their speed isn't relevant in anyway, that you are moved based on the effect.
Which seems very obvious, but ok. However, I don't know that it means we should ignore the impact of difficult terrain.
RAW wise it works. And if I read difficult terrain rules, they seem only to have in mind a character voluntarily move into/through it.
Nothing actually seems to directly think about forced movement.
Will anything break if you reduce the movement? No.
Will anything break by simply running it "RAW"? No.
Unless players start trying to shove each other through difficult terrain to game the system and avoid the penalty I don't think this could be a real problem.
Unless players start trying to shove each other through difficult terrain to game the system and avoid the penalty I don't think this could be a real problem.
It would mean friendly push is good for dealing with difficult terrain. That’s not a problem though, nothing OP there.
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Difficult terrain makes movement cost more. There's no exemption for certain types of movement... a 10 foot push into difficult terrain gets you one square, because that's how much it costs to move into difficult terrain.
Difficult terrain makes movement cost more. There's no exemption for certain types of movement... a 10 foot push into difficult terrain gets you one square, because that's how much it costs to move into difficult terrain.
This does raise a question though, and maybe this is an edge case covered elsewhere...if you only have 5ft of movement, what happens?
Such as in the case of a non-critical shove (which would only move someone 5ft)?
Do they not move at all?
Do they move the 5ft anyways?
I agree with your statement that the movement from Shove (or any source) should be reduced due to difficult terrain (because there aren't any exemptions specifically mentioned) but if you only have 5ft of movement to work with it's unclear what should happen. Similar issue if it's the last 5ft of movement on your last action for a turn (though that might be easier to rule "You can't enter, but on your next turn you can move through".
Personally I would rule you still move the 5ft into or through the difficult terrain on a non-critical success shove. It does mean there isn't a difference between successfully shoving and critically shoving...for my group shoving doesn't happen enough anyways to really make it a big deal.
This kinda depends on the terrain. If it’s thick bramble maybe it should affect both walking and being shoved. If it’s just hard to walk through shoving probably shouldn’t be as affected.
This kinda depends on the terrain. If it’s thick bramble maybe it should affect both walking and being shoved. If it’s just hard to walk through shoving probably shouldn’t be as affected.
I kind of agree, but also kind of disagree.
I feel like in a lot of cases if you're shoved into difficult terrain you'd just fall without actually going very far.
By RAW it's not supported, but maybe ruling that shoving into difficult terrain just results in being prone isn't a bad house rule.
Ultimately this is a bit of an edge case in the rules.
I don't think ruling either way will make a huge difference.
But I can imagine a situation where a group of low speed characters (due to debuffs or encumbered?) shoves one another through difficult terrain rather than striding.
At a certain point though, if you just get trained in athletics, you're just going to Leap or Long Jump over or through the difficult terrain. Probably as effectively or more effectively than this sort of shenanigans.
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When the rules refer to a “movement cost” or “spending movement,” they are describing how many feet of your Speed you must use to move from one point to another.
Since forced movement does not depend on your Speed at all, it is unimpeded by difficult terrain.
Unless players start trying to shove each other through difficult terrain to game the system and avoid the penalty I don't think this could be a real problem.
My party actually had to do this in
The Dex martial had to be Shoved to the boss by the Strength martial. Since PFS uses gliminal rules, this was much faster than making Athletics checks in an effort to move one square at a time.
When the rules refer to a “movement cost” or “spending movement,” they are describing how many feet of your Speed you must use to move from one point to another.Since forced movement does not depend on your Speed at all, it is unimpeded by difficult terrain.
That is a valid interpretation under RAW, but I don't personally think it makes sense.
The rules for difficult terrain are sort of written from the perspective only of regular movement, not forced movement. It's not invalid to conclude it's not impacted, but I also don't think it's invalid to say "the rules as written didn't really cover this".
I don't personally find a ruling by omission very compelling or strong.
Unless players start trying to shove each other through difficult terrain to game the system and avoid the penalty I don't think this could be a real problem.My party actually had to do this in ** spoiler omitted ** There was a nasty wind effect that halved everyone's Speeds, made everything difficult terrain, disrupted any move action unless one succeeded on an Athletics check, and made ranged attacks impossible.
The Dex martial had to be Shoved to the boss by the Strength martial. Since PFS uses gliminal rules, this was much faster than making Athletics checks in an effort to move one square at a time.
I'm curious in this situation, what would have happened if characters had chosen to leap, which doesn't require a check normally to jump 10 ft (or 15ft if speed 30). Would it have still required a check to make a leap? Probably since it sounds like you would have required a check to simply walk, which obviously doesn't require a check.
But I have to say, I would have ruled you needed to make the same check even with forced movement. I wouldn't allow the forced movement to bypass that because it's obviously gaming the rules. And in this scenario I would have absolutely ruled that the forced movement is halved.
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Unless players start trying to shove each other through difficult terrain to game the system and avoid the penalty I don't think this could be a real problem.My party actually had to do this in ** spoiler omitted ** There was a nasty wind effect that halved everyone's Speeds, made everything difficult terrain, disrupted any move action unless one succeeded on an Athletics check, and made ranged attacks impossible.
The Dex martial had to be Shoved to the boss by the Strength martial. Since PFS uses gliminal rules, this was much faster than making Athletics checks in an effort to move one square at a time.
I'm curious in this situation, what would have happened if characters had chosen to leap, which doesn't require a check normally to jump 10 ft (or 15ft if speed 30). Would it have still required a check to make a leap? Probably since it sounds like you would have required a check to simply walk, which obviously doesn't require a check.
But I have to say, I would have ruled you needed to make the same check even with forced movement. I wouldn't allow the forced movement to bypass that because it's obviously gaming the rules. And in this scenario I would have absolutely ruled that the forced movement is halved.
I find it a creative way to solve a problem rather than gaming the rules.
And it is PFS, so RAW have to be strictly followed anyway.
But my point is I'm not sure that is strictly RAW.
The rules on Difficult Terrain don't specifically mention forced movement.
It says:
Difficult terrain is any terrain that impedes your movement, ranging from particularly rough or unstable surfaces to thick ground cover and countless other impediments. Moving into a square of difficult terrain (or moving 5 feet into or within an area of difficult terrain, if you're not using a grid) costs an extra 5 feet of movement. Moving into a square of greater difficult terrain instead costs 10 additional feet of movement. This additional cost is not increased further when moving diagonally. You can't Step into difficult terrain.
Is forced movement moving? Does it count as moving into difficult terrain?
Personally I say that forced movement is movement and counts as moving into difficult terrain.
But the rules are just not clear on the topic. There is no direct mention of forced movement and difficult terrain, so we're kind of forced to draw our own conclusions.
In PFS, I would actually expect that this could get run different ways unless they've made some PFS ruling about it specifically.
Honestly, in my mind the most RAW ruling is actually that forced movement does cost an additional 5ft per square of difficult terrain, meaning on a success a shove moves you nowhere and on a critical success you move 5ft. But I actually find that to be a dissatisfying conclusion because when applied to a enemy and normal activity it means you might as well not bother with shoving and I don't like that result.
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When the rules say something "costs" movement they're explicitly talking about voluntary movement, as per the rule SuperParkourio posted, which reads in full:
"When the rules refer to a “movement cost” or “spending movement,” they are describing how many feet of your Speed you must use to move from one point to another. Normally, movement costs the number of feet you're moving. However, sometimes it's harder to move a certain distance due to difficult terrain or other factors. In such a case, you might have to spend a different amount of movement to move from one place to another."
Forced Movement further reinforces this by saying:
"When an effect forces you to move, or if you start falling, the distance you move is defined by the effect that moved you, not by your Speed. Forced movement doesn't trigger reactions that are triggered by movement. Some common causes of forced movement include the Reposition and Shove actions of Athletics. In the rare cases where it's unclear whether your movement is voluntary or forced, the GM makes the determination."
Getting Shoved into Difficult Terrain doesn't "cost" extra because you're not "spending" any movement, you're just getting Shoved into it. It is not an effect defined by your Speed, and so cannot incur costs.
Now, there are some instances of Forced Movement that would be ambiguous here (the most common one being Leading Dance, from Swashbuckler), but instances such as Shove, Reposition, hydraulic push and begone (among others) very clearly fall under forced movement and should not be shortened by terrain, IMO.
But my point is I'm not sure that is strictly RAW.
The rules on Difficult Terrain don't specifically mention forced movement.
It says:
Difficult terrain is any terrain that impedes your movement, ranging from particularly rough or unstable surfaces to thick ground cover and countless other impediments. Moving into a square of difficult terrain (or moving 5 feet into or within an area of difficult terrain, if you're not using a grid) costs an extra 5 feet of movement. Moving into a square of greater difficult terrain instead costs 10 additional feet of movement. This additional cost is not increased further when moving diagonally. You can't Step into difficult terrain.Is forced movement moving? Does it count as moving into difficult terrain?
Personally I say that forced movement is movement and counts as moving into difficult terrain.
But the rules are just not clear on the topic. There is no direct mention of forced movement and difficult terrain, so we're kind of forced to draw our own conclusions.
In PFS, I would actually expect that this could get run different ways unless they've made some PFS ruling about it specifically.
Honestly, in my mind the most RAW ruling is actually that forced movement does cost an additional 5ft per square of difficult terrain, meaning on a success a shove moves you nowhere and on a critical success you move 5ft. But I actually find that to be a dissatisfying conclusion because when applied to a enemy and normal activity it means you might as well not bother with shoving and I don't like that result.
The rules for difficult terrain don't need to call out forced movement, because they already refer to movement cost, which is "how many feet of your Speed you must use to move." Even though forced movement is movement, it doesn't cost any of your Speed to move in that way. That's really all there is to it.
And like you said, the alternative would make Shoving in difficult terrain very unsatisfying.
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When the rules say something "costs" movement they're explicitly talking about voluntary movement, as per the rule SuperParkourio posted, which reads in full:
"When the rules refer to a “movement cost” or “spending movement,” they are describing how many feet of your Speed you must use to move from one point to another. Normally, movement costs the number of feet you're moving. However, sometimes it's harder to move a certain distance due to difficult terrain or other factors. In such a case, you might have to spend a different amount of movement to move from one place to another."
Forced Movement further reinforces this by saying:
"When an effect forces you to move, or if you start falling, the distance you move is defined by the effect that moved you, not by your Speed. Forced movement doesn't trigger reactions that are triggered by movement. Some common causes of forced movement include the Reposition and Shove actions of Athletics. In the rare cases where it's unclear whether your movement is voluntary or forced, the GM makes the determination."
Getting Shoved into Difficult Terrain doesn't "cost" extra because you're not "spending" any movement, you're just getting Shoved into it. It is not an effect defined by your Speed, and so cannot incur costs.
Now, there are some instances of Forced Movement that would be ambiguous here (the most common one being Leading Dance, from Swashbuckler), but instances such as Shove, Reposition, hydraulic push and begone (among others) very clearly fall under forced movement and should not be shortened by terrain, IMO.
I don't find the passage you took from Forced Movement to be compelling or reinforce your position.
The passage regarding "costing movement" is somewhat compelling, but we need to look at the context.
That passage comes from the very high level generic rules about tactical movement.
But within context, this is a high level explanation to people who are not already familiar with how movement in a table top RPG works.
I don't take it as a statement to say explicitly that involuntary movement shouldn't be impacted by difficult terrain.
I understand how you get there, I just don't agree that it's compelling or strong proof.
If the rules for forced movement or difficult terrain more explicitly touched on it that would be strong compelling evidence. But they don't.
In any event, it's only scenarios like the above where some unusual effect has halved your movement speed and created difficult terrain. The resulting effect is basically quartering your movement speed. And it results in this weird event where shoving each other is potentially more effective than using your own actions to move.
Probably it should have been either halved speed or difficult terrain, and then walking would have been more viable.