The Most Optimized Sorcerer?

[MagisterAlucard]

Hello all, I have recently been diving into the realms of PF2e optimization and have found my interest entirely captivated by the Sorcerer. However, the wide breath of options and bloodlines have left me somewhat at a loss for what would be considered the best possible choices to make for this class.

While certain guides exist that have helped guide my understanding, to my knowledge these builds have not accounted for Impossible Magic.

Furthermore, while "strong" or "powerful" options have been pointed out to me in passing, I still struggle to determine the way to best use them.

My journey has brought me here then, to ask for guidance on the strongest combinations of options for the Sorcerer.

Some notes:

Assume the FA variant rule is in play.

I am aware that the Sorcerer is intentionally a wide-breadth class. I am not asking for the "magnum opus" of optimization that somehow "transcends" all other possible combos (as I am certain that doesn't exist), I am asking for among the strongest combinations of options that you are all familiar with (regardless of the specific build in question; I would be equally as happy with a remarkably potent Divine Sorcerer as I would be with an Arcane one).

[Errenor]

I suspect people would want to know what are you optimizing the sorcerer for.

[Theaitetos]

There are a lot of different things you can accomplish with a Sorcerer. This depends mostly on your desired roles (blaster, supporter, debuffer, …), on your bloodline's spellcasting tradition (arcane, divine, …), on the levels you are playing at, on the environment (party composition & campaign), and on table rules (Free Archetype, Ancestry Paragon, rarity, …).

It's really hard to answer such a broad question without more variables filled.

#Campaign
For example, "best blaster" might change from arcane to divine if your campaign is heavy on enemies with weakness to Holy (e.g. Spore War), or even to the very specific Time Dragon bloodline if you're fighting mostly mindless constructs in Numeria (and your table supports changing the Dragon Breath focus spell to match the Draconic Benefactors table).

#Level
Playing at a low level also means your first focus spell, and even your bloodline's granted spells have a big impact, where as playing at a high levels means your first focus spell is fine just being focus point fodder and your repertoire is big enough to not care about bad granted spells. You also have more options to smooth out weaknesses or add completely new options.

#Role
The first choice is usually which roles you want, which determines a fitting spellcasting tradition to support that, and then choosing an appropriate bloodline from that tradition. If you want to focus heavily on debuffs, then the occult tradition is fine – otherwise it's often better to stay clear of that one. And if you want to be able to heal, then you're basically forced into primal or divine already.

#Party
If your party has no real spellcaster (but a good non-magical healer), then you'll likely have to provide more utility, buffs & debuffs, heavily pushing you towards the arcane tradition.

Another way to approach things is to look for cool combinations and hope the party (& campaign/GM) supports it.

For example, in a level 18+ one-shot/short campaign, you can even use Greater Crossblooded Evolution to effectively add formerly impossible spells to your repertoire, e.g. Heal, Calm, or Divine Wrath to the arcane list. Or get free action Demoralize with Melodious Spell + Spellshape Mastery.

Say you play a 10th-level Sprite, who reincarnated as a Fey Sorcerer, and you used your Free Archetype to grab the Bard's Versatile Performance and the Golden League Xun's Menacing Prowess feat; then cast a 1-2 action Faerie Dust and see your Demoralize ability – stacked by your high Charisma, a greater Performer's Mask, the Virtuosic Performer skill feat, and your blood magic effect – send all the enemies fleeing, turn after turn.

The Ancestral Mage feat works great with the Ancestry Paragon variant rule on certain ancestries, e.g. Elf or Automaton. This allows you to get some good low-level spells to your repertoire – and prime candidates for signature spells if they have good heightened effects. For example, use Otherworldly Acumen (Elf) or Core Attunement (Automaton) to get Heal or Dimensional Drop on your arcane/divine Sorcerer.

If personal staves are available, then use a spellcasting archetype for spells outside your tradition (e.g. Bard/Psychic, Oracle/Cleric/Animist, Druid, Witch) that allows you to grab some of those spells. As a spontaneous caster you can always expend 1 charge and a spell-slot to cast the spell instead of draining the staff quickly; the Arcane Evolution feat (for arcane sorcerers) lets you also expend a spell-slot during daily preparations to give a staff additional charges.
As an example, such a level 11 arcane Sorcerer has a personal staff (spirit) with a 4th-rank Divine Wrath. He expends a 6th-rank slot during daily preparations so his staff has a total of 12 (6+6) charges. Over the course of the day, he expends all 4 of his 4th-rank arcane spell-slots to cast Divine Wrath four times from the staff, bringing the charges down to 8 (12-4); then he casts Divine Wrath twice more from the staff directly. If he is sanctified holy in a campaign against, say, devils, this might be a very effective addition to his blasting arsenal.

Counterspelling is also an option as a Sorcerer: the Elemental Counter cantrip & the Elemental Annihilation Wave signature spell allows you to counter virtually all elemental spells (not Air though), without a feat investment into Counterspell itself. The Imperial bloodline's Arcane Countermeasure takes care of most incapacitation spells and heightened spells (e.g. an enemy's 6th-rank Slow or 7th-rank Haste). You could even go into the Psychic archetype to grab Counter Thought + signature Charm/Fear/… to counter all mental spells (& then get Psi Development to Amp Guidance/… and get out of the archetype).

If you enjoy chaos, the Wellspring Mage archetype and the Chaotic Spell spellshape are your best options. The latter works well with sustained spells like Floating Flame.

[Finoan]

Errenor wrote:

I suspect people would want to know what are you optimizing the sorcerer for.

Exactly.

Are we optimizing for single target damage in combat? AoE damage? Spell slot conservation? Skill challenges? Or even more obscure things like survivability or most summoned creatures on the field at one time?

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

Ah! My dark horse, my favourite. I have optimized the hell our of remaster Sorcerer in last 3 APs 1-20 and custom modules I play with my team. As count Dooku once said "I'have been looking foward to this!"

This should be whole Guide, but since I won't do it as single post I will write you a lot of general build planning to optimize Sorcerer.

Right, lets start. Some general stuff:

1. Sorcerer in Remaster is mathematically the best blaster when build right - by a long shot. Ergo - if you want to optimize Sorcerer, you optimize for damage. We do it by obviously using Sorcerer 4 slots, Potency, ability to paoch different tradition spells (and making them have Blood Magic) and most importanty - Explosion of Power + Anoint Ally + Blood Rising combo. He is also automatically best at all social stuff as Charisma caster. If can optimize caster - this is the best one.

2. You are still caster. Meaning - outside of damage you can still do debuffs, hard CC or buffs. You spell list should focus on optimizing for ending encounters as fast as possible, but apart from damage this can be achived by a lot of different spells. So don't forget to optimize your spell list choices (and according to AP you play)

3. Sorcerer bloodlines are splitted into two categories - ones that can utilize Explosion of Power optimially or ones that can't. This comes to 1 action Focus Spells for trigger EoP and who has great Gift spells in general and can also trigger more EoPs with them on top.

4. When optimizing Sorcerer, it's important to note and figure out two things: One - is whole party optmized, focused on teamwork and working towards synergies/combos and think as a team to achieve goal? Two - are you single caster in party? If yes - it changes how we shape build. If not - what is the second caster? What he will fill that we don't have to or what is still lacking that needs to be filled.

Next is general stuff about optimizing your Sorcerer spell arsenal. The two best traditions for Sorcerer is Arcane and Primal. The two best bloodlines for that is Imperial and Metal Elemental due to their synergy with EoP and having best two tradtions.

The optimization of Sorcerer arsenal happens with the following things:

1. Ancestral Magic + Ancestral Mage feat with correct choice of your starting Ancestry, Heritage/Mixed Heritage and Adopted Ancestry. You can poach spells from Arcane or Occult tradition (easiest ones), make them blood line spells (triggering EoP) and add to your repertoire. Primal usually gets the most out of it as you can use said ancestry feats giving you innate spells to poach spells like Time Jump, Invisibility, Phantom Pain/Agonizing Despair, Agitate (only good if your team is good in martials combos), Dimensional Drop, Disorienting Flash (primal has it but you can give it EoP), Force Barrage, Heroism, Soothe (good on Arcane). For example getting Human ancestry + half-elf heritage + adopted ancestry: Kashirishi can gives us overall access to: 2x 1st rank spells, one Arcane, one Occult, 2x rank spells, one Arcane, one Occult, 1x 2nd rank spell, can be Arcane, Occult, Primal or Divine. Nagaji adopted ancestry can give us Heal (good for Arcane caster). Or make human mixed heritage kashirishi, adopted ancestry Nagaji. And so on.

Another way is if you are divine sorcere to use Blessed Blood to get more spells - they won't be bloodline and trigger EoP but you can get great spells here.

2. Right archetypes give us access to spells that don't need to be put on slots but are very good at stituational spells that we can keep as scrolls or wands and spells we dont cast in combat. For example on Primal Sorcerer getting archetype of Bard or Psychic give us access to spells like Translocation, Unexpected Transposition, Shadow Siphon, Disapearance, Synesthesia. Oracle which is one of best archetypes to optimize Sorcerer can give us access to somes spells via using Divine Access feat and right deity. For example for grabbing Contingency.

Now some of these you want to have on scroll just in case combined with Retrival Belt. For example Synesthesia in boss fight. With Retrival Belt Greater I also put there Disaperance. In one hand I usually wield wand of Unexpected Transposition and in another one I have wand of Shadow Siphon. I keep Contigency on Wand, cast it with using scroll of translocation.

3. Some archetypes can fill a role - Beast Master is great choice if you have for some reason martial players who would refuse being your Anointed Ally. Don't know why it would happen but hey - might put it here. Or there is some other issue with martials. Mature Bird is very good choice here as we need our bomb to get in place fast and easy, which Fly does.

4. The most imporant stat for any caster is initiative. That why from all my testings and calculations - Fan Dancer is in my opinion the best first archetype to take on any Cha caster. Being able to always roll Performance on Initiative (which normally RAW can't be done with any skill unless you Avoid Notice for Stealth but then we use Exploration Action) that auto scales to Legendary, scales of our main attribute and making enemies off-guard if they are below you in initiative is big boost in power. First spell can snowball encounter into easy win. Period. Having opening blast/controll/debuff spell before allies and enemies can already decide ecnounter. Perception is mediocre as initiative on Sorcerer. Also we don't have to make case to GM of using anything else than perception for every single initiative roll as per Rules as Solo Dancer feat says "you can ALWAYS use Performance as Iniative". Feat does what feat says.

Next is Damage. Currently Anoint Ally + Explosion of Power + Blood Rising is best way to maxizmie damage. You use Improvised Exploration Action to keep Anoint Ally up on melee martial. You use blood line spells (and spells we made blood line via Ancestral Mage and ancestry spell feats) to trigger EoP on your martial. Rest of your party have ready 1 action cantrip from your tradition to cast on you (Take Root/Tremor Sign for Primal, Message for Arcane) so you trigger EoP from Blood Rising reaction. And you have 1 action bloodline Focus Spell to trigger it again. Ergo you can easy trigger 3 explosions, which on level 9 is additional 15d6 free damage per turn. Or Even 4. It requires basic teamwork but nothing too hard. It actually resolves a lot of "3rd action problem" among all party members as it's free team damage. Its very easy to get cantrip from most ancestry feats for example. Even solo you can trigger 10d6 at level 9 without problem. Martial just need be adjecent to enemies (story of melee life) and whoever has 3rd action free in round casts 1 action cantrip on you. Easy.

Skills: Diplomacy and Intimidation for Bon Mot/Glare. Acrobatics for Kip Up, Perofrmance for Initiative (Fan Dancer).

Skill/General Feats. A lot to dive in here but Bon Mot and Imtimidation Glare on Charisma Caster is always good. I always take background to get either one on start and then take other one from Skill Feat. Don't forger Fast Recovery for Moment of Reneval spell combo later. Armor Training for light armor so you can max AC at DEX +3. Typical ones like Fleet, Improved Initiative.

Now with these general ideas/thoughts we can proceed to actually optimizing sorcerer in general. I will present 2 general scenarios here - solo caster and one of two casters. There is a lot of more variations to this I don't have time to dive into all of them.

So:

I. Solo Caster

If you are Solo Caster you can fulfill multiple roles in party. You are probably surrounded by martials. The most importan things here are making sure your team is boosted and you are boosted.

My fav combo here is Metal Elemental Sorcerer with following Archetypes: Fan Dancer for Solor Dancer feat and Petal Step (just to finish Fan Dancer), Oracle for Whispers of Weakness, Oracular Warning, later Fortell Harm and Divine Access or First Revelation (+1 FP) and its progress feat and using 9th level human talent Multitalented - Bard for access to occult spells and being able to perform later Fortissimo combo with Broche of Orchestra. With meta spell choices on all ranks you are filling role of blaster, healer, debuffer/CC and buffer and party face on top. You can trigger EoPs with Elemental Toss + Thunder Strike/Chain Lightning and I like to add to that Phantom Pain for strong single target Will attack + EoP and now defnitely I would poach Dimensional Drop though there are many options here. We want to be human for additonal 1st level talent for Blood Rising to squeeze all feats we need. But when you level up you can first go for for example Blessed Blood at level 2-3 for +1 FP and LoH and retrain to Fan Dancer and Solo Dancer on level 4. On level 6 taking Advanced Bloodline or First Revelation for +1 FP. You don't need Blood Rising, Anointed Ally before level 8 when you get Explosion of Power so plan your level up and retrainings.

II. Second Caster.

Lets say you have Bard already or Divine Caster. Then you can get away without having to worry about access to synesthesia, buffs or healing. Imperial Sorcerer with Arcane Tradition will fit best here as generalist. Fan Dancer + Oracle still recommended but with Psychic dedication we can grab Amp Shield or my favourite amp Warp Step. You need to however pick better offensive spells for triggering EoP with Ancestral Mage - I recommend Thunderstrike and Fireball if your AA martial is ok with eating some damage (he should be reflex succ -> crit succ for this, if not, take fort AoE damage) to trigger multiple AoE. Put fire resistance stuff on him. Or don't use AoE damge to trigger for multiple opponents and instead make your AoE EoP trigger a CC spell like Domentional Drop, Slow/Roaring Applause or Fear (heightened version for multiple targets). This way you avoid FF but you can still trigger EoP to multiple adjecent enemies around your AA martial while debuffing them.

You can also think about sacreficing Oracle and instead taking Halycon Speaker to grab Primal spells. But it's big investement in feats and it only really starts to pay off at level 10. But it's there to consider.

Some general summary

Anointed Ally + EoP is strongest Sorcerer build becasue it's easy to build for it (though you have to invest in it) and use it. You just need minimum single frontliner melee martial. Props if he can also be Large or bigger later as then he can be adjecent to more enemies and trigger more EoPs (Chain Lightning + EoP for 3+ enemies is brutal). And someone casting 1 action cantrip on you. Second backliner will have no problems with that as 3rd action but anyone/all can do it. At higher levels it can add really big chunk of damage. For example on level 15 that's easy addtional 24d6 damage to single target or multiple targets. You can also use companion for that but that's really only in case if for some reason your party has no melee martial (lol) or melee martial player refuses. Never had such lack of team work but hey - may happen. Be self suficient if needed.

For Defense focus on spells like Transposition, Time Jump, Zephyr Slip, Contingency->Translocate Combo, Air Walk, Haste and hard CC spells like Stone Wall.

There is also spell choices which is most important thing but Gortle's Guide does good job of marking whats worth so you can check that. Remember one thing though - the more optimized and better your team the worst are sustain or persistent spells or any spells that don't have full effect in turn 1. Or another example - spell like Blister Bomb is one of best spells...unless you fight in AP with a lot of enemies immune to disease. Spells like Coral Eruption or Corrosive Muck can be S tier...unless you constantly start encounters 10-20ft from enemies... in 15x15ft rooms. So just keep all that in mind. Fly is good, unless there is no much flying enemies.

Now there are many many more ways to optimize all that, tweak here and there for your party or AP and play with different archetypes but that's the very general idea. There are Sorcerer builds on Flying Mounts that are really fun.

And we didn't even dive into items, eh. Thats another huge thing. Wands, scrolls, retrival belt, bloodline robe, spell hearts, staves, Speed items, fly items, darkvision items and many more.

And then there is whole seperate deep dive into attack vs save spells, recognizing enemy saves and more.

Anyway, that's the basic gist of it. The strongest Sorcerer build will definitely revolve around AA + EoP combo but archetypes, spell choices, ancestry spell choices for Ancestral Mage will depend a lot on your party composition and AP. But Fan Dancer for example is always S tier as Initiative is best caster stat.

For example in AP like AoE Arcane Sorcerer will be great choice. But for example in Blood Lords/Spore Wars - Primal or even Divine Sorcerer will anihilate stuff with spells like Holy Light or Moonlight Ray, Sunburst/Moonburst etc.

There is way more to that but I hope you will get general idea.

My personal conclusion after playing remaster Sorcerer so long -Elemental Metal Sorcerer with right archetypes/feats to poach correct spells from Arcane/Occult build for AA and EoP is the strongest Sorcerer build.

[magnuskn]

I do wonder if Explosion of Power isn't a giant "hit me!" sign plastered on the front of the robe of whomever Sorcerer does it.

Maybe you want to post a sample Sorcerer with a Pathbuilder link or, if you want to put your back into it, here with a full write-up stat block, to see what a full build like this looks like.

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

magnuskn wrote:

I do wonder if Explosion of Power isn't a giant "hit me!" sign plastered on the front of the robe of whomever Sorcerer does it.

Maybe you want to post a sample Sorcerer with a Pathbuilder link or, if you want to put your back into it, here with a full write-up stat block, to see what a full build like this looks like.

Martial is usually giant hit me sign anyway and in optimized party if your encounters last on average 2 rounds with rarely 3 it won't matter anyway. Point is always to blitz through them. Besides enemies won't know that until he actually starts to explode around. In boss fights they are main target anyway as their job is to keep boss proned and maybe grabbed while pounding him and screening him.

I was thinking about putting Guide for it but honestly writing guides is not my thing, my writing skills are not that good in English. I am more of Excel guy and testing in practice. It also takes long time to write proper, well put Guide. But I could drop a link to sample build for Sorcerer in evening, though I can't promise I will put in all spells, all signature spells and for sure I won't touch items. But archetypes and feats should give enough overview. Maybe level 16 build sample will be best idea.. It won't show spell progression though which is skill in itself as you level up but oh well.

Though keep in mind build would wary depending on party. My last 3 APs were either me as solo caster or classic 2 Martials, Maestro Bard and me on Sorcerer. Definitely most powerful comp because Bard is a Bard.

[magnuskn]

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

I do wonder if Explosion of Power isn't a giant "hit me!" sign plastered on the front of the robe of whomever Sorcerer does it.

Maybe you want to post a sample Sorcerer with a Pathbuilder link or, if you want to put your back into it, here with a full write-up stat block, to see what a full build like this looks like.

Martial is usually giant hit me sign anyway and in optimized party if your encounters last on average 2 rounds with rarely 3 it won't matter anyway. Point is always to blitz through them. Besides enemies won't know that until he actually starts to explode around. In boss fights they are main target anyway as their job is to keep boss proned and maybe grabbed while pounding him and screening him.

I was thinking about putting Guide for it but honestly writing guides is not my thing, my writing skills are not that good in English. I am more of Excel guy and testing in practice. It also takes long time to write proper, well put Guide. But I could drop a link to sample build for Sorcerer in evening, though I can't promise I will put in all spells, all signature spells and for sure I won't touch items. But archetypes and feats should give enough overview. Maybe level 16 build sample will be best idea.. It won't show spell progression though which is skill in itself as you level up but oh well.

Though keep in mind build would wary depending on party. My last 3 APs were either me as solo caster or classic 2 Martials, Maestro Bard and me on Sorcerer. Definitely most powerful comp because Bard is a Bard.

Thanks, I appreciate it! A Pathbuilder link should be the easiest way to do a relatively quick character write-up. :)

[MagisterAlucard]

First of all I wanted to thank everyone for their insightful responses! I feel as though my understanding of Sorcerer (and of the system overall) has improved quite a bit.

I have both especially enjoyed the build suggestions from Kyle and Theaitetos.

I am almost certain now that I am intent on building around blasting.

I have also determined that my current party will have a Cloistered Cleric intent on providing buffs and healing, so there is (at least to my understanding) less of an incentive for me to focus on a "fill all roles" type of Sorcerer.

In that case, would it be worth it to go for an Arcane Sorcerer over a Primal one, given that there is less of a need for me to fill those roles? Moreover, Kyle provided some race ideas particularly tailored to an Elemental Sorcerer to snatch some useful Arcane and Occult spells, but what race / heritage might be optimal for an Arcane-list Sorcerer?

Again, thanks to all of you for your extensive help!

[Deriven Firelion]

Kyle covered all of it.

I've played non-blasting sorcs as well and they are better than any caster at doing almost any type of casting. More versatile than any caster if you make them so. I mean on-demand versatility, not I wait a bunch of time to see if the wizard can find some spell to do something maybe better occasionally.

Arcane is not the greatest list for versatility. Occult is the most versatile list for non-blasting caster builds while still having some blasting ability. If you want to be a damage hammer, not great to go with an occult caster. I made my occult caster a versatile utility caster choosing spells to fulfill that role. That caster was able to be the healer, interrogator, magic problem solver, battlefield control, and just about everything a caster might do with an occasional blast thrown in. Charisma was an amazing stat for social interactions so the sorc could be the faceman of the group as well easily able to manipulate people and accomplish goals without using a spell with a higher level of proficiency than a caster.

You definitely don't want to forget how good Charisma is as a stat. PF2 really turned charisma into a powerhouse stat on par with spells for social interactions. Great feats for the social skills as well. Build them up and use them often. Intimidation and Diplomacy can support spellcasting as well.

Sorc is a real nice class. Lots of great options. They are hands down the best and most versatile caster in PF2 that can be built for a bunch of different roles in PF2.

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

MagisterAlucard wrote:

First of all I wanted to thank everyone for their insightful responses! I feel as though my understanding of Sorcerer (and of the system overall) has improved quite a bit.

I have both especially enjoyed the build suggestions from Kyle and Theaitetos.

I am almost certain now that I am intent on building around blasting.

I have also determined that my current party will have a Cloistered Cleric intent on providing buffs and healing, so there is (at least to my understanding) less of an incentive for me to focus on a "fill all roles" type of Sorcerer.

In that case, would it be worth it to go for an Arcane Sorcerer over a Primal one, given that there is less of a need for me to fill those roles? Moreover, Kyle provided some race ideas particularly tailored to an Elemental Sorcerer to snatch some useful Arcane and Occult spells, but what race / heritage might be optimal for an Arcane-list Sorcerer?

Again, thanks to all of you for your extensive help!

If you are willing to wait I will drop you Arcane sample build later, though it will be build for like lvl 16 so "what it should look like then" but I will give you general tips on leveling up. I am on vacation now with only phone so it's hard to make builds or write a lot (hate working on mobile pathbuilder):P

As for heritage and Ancestral Spells, you still get v.good milage out of occult/arcane ancestry spells. Occult still let's you grab make make trigger EoP like Phantom Pain, Soothe, Calm or Heroism. If you have cleric then if you grab heroism for example you can both drop Heroism on two martials in same turn, though from optimization perspective you should still aim at taking Bard archetype at higher levels for fortissimo. But we can also get Heal from Nagaji though that may step on cleric toes in party so I would avoid that unless he is cool with that. And we can still get bonus from Arcane spells. Why? Cause we make them have blood magic effect! So while your Arcane Sorcerer might already have thunderstrike in repertoire its not Gift spell so no EoP. Using human feat we can take thunderstrike and it will make it have blood magic effect and be in repertoire at level 10. So general building blocks still apply. Especially since as Aracane you lack non friendly fire spell that can trigger EoP so we can use Slow, Roaring Applause or Dimensional drop to combine strong debuff with damage on top. So we still get benefits from arcane and occult innate spells.

So I would probably go Human with mixed heritage kashirishi. Or adopted ancestry kashirishi if you want different heritage for roleplaying reasons.

[Theaitetos]

MagisterAlucard wrote:

In that case, would it be worth it to go for an Arcane Sorcerer over a Primal one, given that there is less of a need for me to fill those roles? Moreover, Kyle provided some race ideas particularly tailored to an Elemental Sorcerer to snatch some useful Arcane and Occult spells, but what race / heritage might be optimal for an Arcane-list Sorcerer?

You're very welcome!

Sorcerers & Oracles have been my favorite classes since Pf1e times, so I can share a lot about them.

Personally, I prefer to go for a complement to the divine list, arcane in this case. Though let me ask first: Which AP are you playing/planning and what is the level range (current→max)?

Kyle's race suggestions were all around snatching good spells from ancestry feats so they can be used to trigger blood magic effects.

His base damage enhancer suggestion is the Explosion of Power ("EoP") blood magic effect, gained via feat at level 8.

And in order to have the emanation trigger from a melee ally, rather than yourself you need to use Anoint Ally on that designated ally at the beginning of combat – though this can actually be done via an exploration activity (works like Sustain an Effect/Repeat a Spell) so it's active for 1 minute once combat begins without you having to do anything on your turn.

Now, blood magic effects like EoP only trigger on your bloodline focus spells or granted spells by the bloodline; for an Imperial Sorcerer, these would be initial: ancestral memories, advanced: extend blood magic, greater: arcane countermeasure and 1st: force barrage, 2nd: dispel magic, 3rd: haste, 4th: translocate, 5th: scouting eye, 6th: disintegrate, 7th: retrocognition, 8th: quandary, 9th: implosion. Snatching spells via ancestry feats is used in conjunction with the Ancestral Blood Magic & Ancestral Mage feats, which makes those ancestry spells trigger blood magic as well.

You're looking for ancestries that have feats that give you good spell choices, especially if they have good heighten effects, e.g. Dimensional Drop or Slow.

I'm fond of (Half-)Elves and their Otherworldly Acumen feat, as you have most options for 1st- & 2nd-rank spells right there; you just need to have another Elf ancestry feat that gives you a cantrip/spell from a tradition. E.g. for primal: Elemental Wrath, Wildborn Magic/Wildborn Adept, or Fey Influence; for arcane: Otherworldly Magic; for occult: Share Thoughts; for divine: Brightness Seeker (difficult: level 9!). You could even retrain the specific spell with 1 day downtime.
Note: I think Kyle is missing the fact that Otherworldly Acumen can also be used to select a heightened 1st-rank spell, so you don't need to be a Nagaji to grab Heal. But you can also get more, e.g. by grabbing Fey Influence at level 5 to get Heal (via Unicorn) and then another 1st-/2nd-rank primal spell like Thunderstrike with Otherworldly Acumen.

Kyle suggested the Kashrishi feat chain Open Mind → Unlock Secret → Transcendent Realization to get a 3rd-rank occult spell. Note: Calm isn't a bad spell either, but probably useless on a blaster.

Higher level spells are harder to get at level 10. For example Mage Automatons with Core Attunement give you a 1st- & 2nd-rank arcane spell of your choice, and at level 17 (Greater Augmentation) a 5th- & 6th-rank arcane spell.

Finally, the Blood Rising feat also allows you to trigger your blood magic (EoP) when you're the target of a spell of your tradition, which can be a harmless cantrip like Message. Technically you don't even need an ally to cast the spell on you, sustaining or something similar is fine, e.g. an ally sustaining their Light spell to attach it to you. I find that the easiest method, since you can just purchase a Cantrip Deck with 5 Light spells for 5gp, i.e. 1gp per Light, and that cantrip is available in all traditions.

Note: If your Cloistered Cleric ally has access to the Magic domain, kindly ask if they can cast Mystic Beacon on you before you cast your big blast.

----- EDIT -----

Try to provide as much information as possible about your circumstances, i.e. party members, level range, adventure/campaign, variant rules (free archetype, ancestry paragon), restrictions (uncommon/rare), and GMs preferred encounter types (many/few a day, single/wave encounters, mob-type/boss-type encounters or both, ratio of winnable/unwinnable encounters, frequency of hazards outside/during combat encounters).

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

Theaitetos wrote:

Note: I think Kyle is missing the fact that Otherworldly Acumen can also be used to select a heightened 1st-rank spell, so you don't need to be a Nagaji to grab Heal. But you can also get more, e.g. by grabbing Fey Influence at level 5 to get Heal (via Unicorn) and then another 1st-/2nd-rank primal spell like Thunderstrike with Otherworldly Acumen.

I am well aware of that but elf is missing chosing also 1st rank spell and is limited to 2nd rank spell, though he is more flexible in that 2nd rank spell choice (and can even change it during 1 day downtime). Just want to pouch as much as possible and 3rd rank spells is usually where a lot of juicy stuff is and, ironically, 1st rank spells too. 2nd rank is very meh overall in all traditions. Though as you said you can take heightened version. Elf or Half-elf for that is also on my favourites to mess with Ancestral Mage. If you make human mixed heritage kashirishi and adpoted ancestry elf you have tons of options to keep adding EoP/different traditions spells throughout all 5-20 levels :D . Occult, Arcane (for EoPs if you are Arcane Sorc), Primal/Divine. Gotta catch em all!

Mage Automaton also very good suggestion same as Spellhorn Kobold getting 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th rank arcane spells.

Though Automatons can be harder to put in. Many GMs don't like whole "technology" stuff in their games.

But hell you can make "cyborg" Sorcerer and make Mage automaton adopted ancestry Kashirishi and roleplay that as half-machine psychic rhino :P or just raised among them.

Its hard to put all possible options in single post so I highly recommend this complete list of all ancestral spells you can get from all different ancestries!.

And obviously there is also Halycon Speaker for poaching primal spells but I personally do not think he is worth it as he takes so many FA/class tax feats that are mostly useless just to get the first good on level 10. I would prefer to put said feats into Oracle or Bard archetype etc.

Theaitetos wrote:

Technically you don't even need an ally to cast the spell on you, sustaining or something similar is fine, e.g. an ally sustaining their Light spell to attach it to you. I find that the easiest method, since you can just purchase a Cantrip Deck with 5 Light spells for 5gp, i.e. 1gp per Light, and that cantrip is available in all traditions.

This is something I didn't want to bring as I had a lot of arguments about RAI vs RAW when it comes to sustain spells counting for each turn for "creature targets you with a spell" for Blood Rising as many GMs would argue that you are only target on initiatl cast of sustain spell, not for each sustain.

Obviously OP talk to GM, but I opt to recommend safer option usually of just getting 1 action cantrip cast on your as RAW there is no argument against it. But if your GM will allow sustain to count for trigger BR - great!

Btw. I am also big fan of new Impossible Magic Disorienting Flash spell to make EoP spell with Ancestral Mage as 1 action version is something I would love to have when I had to make spell attack with my Primal Sorcerer (like for Holy Light/Moonlight ray, Polar Ray or Briny Bolt) and Elemental Toss would trigger EoP but could miss with MAP. Now for price of spell slot (but single target spells like that usually indicate boss or mini-boss fight so it's fine) I can add 1d10/rank sonic damage + dazzle on fail + EoP to complement my 2 action attack spell. I really can't wait to test that on new Sorc character.

Btw. OP - to follow Theaitetos question - will you be playing official AP?

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

MagisterAlucard wrote:

In that case, would it be worth it to go for an Arcane Sorcerer over a Primal one, given that there is less of a need for me to fill those roles?

Sorry for being late but I am on vacation and only with my phone but I made you a quick sample level 16 build for Arcane Sorcerer

This build uses FA, Ancestral Paragon and Gradual Ablity Boosts. I recommend you playing with them and ask GM to play with them if you already play with FA as they make building characters more fun. Without them you'd have to adjust more like moving Armor Training to level 3 General Feat instead of level 1 after you reach level 3-4 so you can free class level 1 feat for Blood Rising etc. But if you want to have max fun with PF2e optimization and theorycrafting, FA + AP + GAB are in my opinion mandatory for fun crafting. I personally think all of them should have been default, but they simplified PF2e for casuals.

This is sample build where you want to also become THE buffer of party after level 16 with Fortissimo.

In innate spells for Explosion of Power spells for Ancestral Mage I picked general spells I like: Thunderstrike as main Ref save burst, Forge as main Fort save burst, Dimensional Drop (make it signature for EoP scalling) as you Friendly Fire friendly CC+damage spell and Phantom Pain for main Will burst (though you may opt for Agonizing Despair if you prefer). All of these spells will trigger Explosion of Power afer level 10. Though there are other good options that would fit here but it depends on campaign and party. I didn't pick Soothe for example becasue you said you will have Cleric, however nothing prevents you from taking it and being off-healer if you prefer and trigger EoP from healing Anointed Ally as bonus. Briny Bolt is very good alternative to either Phantom Pain or Forge for example. Fireball or Eagle's Cry could be alternative to Dimensional Drop if your anointed ally will stack fire resistance + have reflex succ->crit succ or is Barbarian (Eagle's Cry) for easy passing fortitude saves and don't mind once in blue moon take damage. Or if you want to really go ham in single target burst change Dimensional Drop to Disorienting Flash to have 1 action EoP to combo with 2 action EoP spells, for example casting Thunderstrike from max slot and finishing with 1 action Disorienting Flash for double damage + double EoP explosion from Anointed Ally.

Level 14 feat is Flexible. You can take whatever you will feel is needed. Maybe you will need Overwhelming Energry, Chaotic Spell or Split Shot. Some skill feats that I like like Distracting Performance (since we have Fan Dancer) or Scare to Death are flexible slots too.

I picked Cosmos as Orcale Mystery since we don't care about being enfeebled as caster so curse penalty means very little for us. We also won't use Divine Access feat since we are Arcane.

Whispers of Weakness from Oracle can also be changed if you feel you know how to identify lowest Save without using it or Recall Knowledge (but if you aren't it's one of best feats in game) and +2 status bonus to next attack roll is great bonus.

Now the few caveats:

This is level 16 build, however you should not level up Class and Archetype Feats like that from start becasue there are few things we need to consider when leveling up:

1. Normally we try to keep our Focus Points pool in 2-3 range when we can during leveling up. 2 is enough till Explosion of Power. However since Ancestral Memories are not that good till level 9, even 1 FP will be good unlike for example Metal Sorcerer where I would always want to have min 2. For example on level 2 I would usually pick Blessed One for +1 FP and retrain it to Fan Dancer once we are level 4 so I can get Solo Dancer feat benefits. We go back to 1 FP but huge Initiative bonus is worth it. On level 6 then I would start with Advanced Bloodline Class Feat to get +1 FP again and go for Oracular Warning (initiative is king). But then again - for Imperial Sorc it's not THAT important till level 8 (more why below) where each usage will trigger Explosion of Power.

2. Till level 8 we don't really need Anoint Ally, Blood Rising or Ancestral Blood Magic. So instead you can for example take Reach Spell/Familar, Propelling Sorcery + Advanced Bloodline or different archetype feat.

3. Till level 10 we don't need Ancestral Blood Magic (we need it to take Ancestral Mage on 10 to get you bette EoP spells) so again - you can keep Advanced Bloodline there for Focus Point or take different class/archetype feat.

4. Next is relying on Ancestral Memories. I don't want to get into whole mathematics here but while it is great focus spell, it's not great all the time. It will trigger EoP so that's obviously v good. However before level 8 where we get EoP you are better using most of the time either Demoralize or Bon Mot becasue while they are not guaranteed they will provide benefit not only for you but for your whole party. Once it gets +2/-2 (level 9), the +2 on opening attack spell (like Briny Bolt) may actually be better with Oracle Whispers of Weakness as it also gives +2 while giving you information about enemy weaknesses and lowest Save which can be worth more than single EoP. -2 to Boss Save starts to get really good. Once you have Fortissimo however it's better to cast Fortissimo than Ancestral Memories for initial turn 1st action since +3 to whole party attacks will net MUCH higher damage than your +3/-3 for yourself only so there is that too (and you can have strong attack spell options like Briny Bolt, Disintegrate + EoP, Polar Ray). And Synesthesia (Bard gives you access from Scrolls/Wands) may net better result with Clumsy 3 on boss vs -3 from Ancestral Memories (or new Weight of the World spell) since again - whole party benefits from it. Just to keep that in mind that Ancestral Memories is not always best option and may even have dimishing returns in optimized party/gameplay with certain party compositions.

Spell Selection is most important part of caster optimization. However, a lot depends on AP you play. I recommend Gortle's Spell Guide for the Sorcerer PF2 Remastered for good general understanding which spells stand out most (just don't use his sample spell lists!) and for new Impossible Magic this article does very good jon rating them

Just remember that rating of some spells are very part dependend. Most optimized parties don't have as much use from pure persistent dmg spells or sustain spells as combat last too short and many APs have simply too small maps for spells like Rust Cloud to be usable. Agitate is mediocre by itself but if your martials combine prone + grapple on boss, suddenly agitate becomes very high damage or turn waste spell. Just keep stuff like that in mind.

[Theaitetos]

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

Fireball or Eagle's Cry could be alternative to Dimensional Drop if your anointed ally will stack fire resistance + have reflex succ->crit succ or is Barbarian (Eagle's Cry) for easy passing fortitude saves and don't mind once in blue moon take damage.

Have you considered Spell Immunity to protect your ally?

I'm also surprised you completely ignore Arcane Evolution. If you have 2 non-tradition spells of the same rank in your repertoire, you need it if you want to make both spells your signature spells.

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

Theaitetos wrote:

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

Fireball or Eagle's Cry could be alternative to Dimensional Drop if your anointed ally will stack fire resistance + have reflex succ->crit succ or is Barbarian (Eagle's Cry) for easy passing fortitude saves and don't mind once in blue moon take damage.

Have you considered Spell Immunity to protect your ally?

I'm also surprised you completely ignore Arcane Evolution. If you have 2 non-tradition spells of the same rank in your repertoire, you need it if you want to make both spells your signature spells.

Very good suggestion with Spell immunity. I never went route of EoP friendly fire AOE spell myself as Imperial (I made Slow non FF EoP spell) and Metal Sorcerer and Angelic didn't have that problem with Chain Lightning and Divine's Wrath so I forgot about this one. Good catch! Thanks.

As for Arcane Evolution - when I was playing Imperial didn't felt need for it that much. With enough juggling and heightening I put all stuff I needed for signatures throughout all spell ranks and there is also Signature Spell Expansion feat for +2 signature spells to take on level 12 or 14 as I usually had most issues squeezing lower rank 1-3 spells for signatures. I should have mentioned that feat in my above post but forgot it.

And I won't lie - every time I read Arcane Evolution I understood it after few readings and then forget again how it exactly works next day :P. Part of reason I like Sorcerer and hate Wizard is I don't like this whole "Learn a Spell" thing :D . Imperial was also my first remaster Sorc so I forgot about it since it's been some time. I prefer Primal Sorc myself.

But definitely very good alternative feat to Signature Spell Expansion feat for less signature juggling. OP - take note!

[MagisterAlucard]

Hello again, I have much more news about the campaign and the party composition.

We are using Free Archetype but not Ancestry Paragon. The campaign is not an official AP but rather a homebrew story set in Tian Xia. Naturally we'll be encountering many of the creatures from the Tian Xia world guide. The party is made up of a fighter, an Oracle (previously cleric, still focusing on healing and buffs), a Ruffian Rogue, an Investigator Eldritch Archer(archetype), and my Sorcerer.

The campaign is going 1-20 (I know, a stretch), and the DM prefers to have fewer (1-2) but much more challenging combat encounters each day.

Thanks again for all your help!

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

MagisterAlucard wrote:

Hello again, I have much more news about the campaign and the party composition.

We are using Free Archetype but not Ancestry Paragon. The campaign is not an official AP but rather a homebrew story set in Tian Xia. Naturally we'll be encountering many of the creatures from the Tian Xia world guide. The party is made up of a fighter, an Oracle (previously cleric, still focusing on healing and buffs), a Ruffian Rogue, an Investigator Eldritch Archer(archetype), and my Sorcerer.

The campaign is going 1-20 (I know, a stretch), and the DM prefers to have fewer (1-2) but much more challenging combat encounters each day.

Thanks again for all your help!

Without Ancestry Paragon for Arcane it gets more tight to give him good Explosion of Power spells. Here is revised build without AP. We push Bard from level 9 to 10 so we take Virtue Forged Tattoo. This way on level 10 we have options for 1st rank Arcane and 3rd rank Arcane spell for making them our EoPs. I would personally go for Thunderstrike and Disorienting Flash/Dimensional Drop. I also changed us from Kashirishi to Half-Elf heritage as on level 13 and 17 you can take initial elf feat for cantrip from either arcane/primal/occult ( for arcane: Otherworldly Magic; for occult: Share Thoughts) and then on leve 17 Otherwordly Acument for 2nd level spell of each. We won't squeeze Kashirishi feats for 3rd rank Ocult so this one gives more flexibity for some late-game EoP pick.

Also since we don't have Ancestry Paragon you will have to retrain in few places Armor Training while leveling up. Start with it on level 1 via General Training from Human and retrain it to level 7 general feat so you can free level 1 for Natural Ambition: Blood Rising.

Since Imperial has very mediocre EoP spells, without Ancestral Paragon I would prefer Primal but we get enough boost from Thunderstrike and either Disorienting Flash or Dimensional Drop or Fireball/Eagle's Cry + Spell Immunity as Theaitetos pointed out but then you have to remember to heightening Spell Immunity as it has to counteract your spell! You can also consider Agonizing Despair for Will save EoP.

Also rememeber that you will need to make sure other party members (or at minimum cleric as backliner) have access to arcane cantrip: Message (via ancestry feats or archetypes if they take ones that give arcane cantrips) so they can make you trigger additional EoP from Blood Rising. Rogue should get it from Minor Magic (not needed till you are level 8 remember), rest should check ancestry feats. Message is best cause it has not Manipulate trait so won't trigger Reactive Strikes.

Since you will have Oracle (I just realized) you can change Oracular Warning (unless he won't take it) to Fortell Harm for extra damage. Or even consider dropping Oracle as whole archetype and take Bard faster for Lingering Composition + Anthem on level 8 for party buffing turn 1 (later DoD for debuffing if you want). Since your Oracle will probably have both Whisper of Weakness and Oracular Warning. Unless he plan to use his cursebound for different stuff, so talk with him how he will plan his Oracle as your Orcale archetype may actually fill niches he won't utilize. If you go without Oracle archtype (Fortel Harm is good but not worth whole archetype) and earlier Bard instead (4 level dedication, 6 - Lingering Composition, 8 - Anthemic Performance and 12/14 - Dirge of Doom and 16 - Fortissimo) you can take later (level 10+) Psychic for Amp Warp Step for example. Ah, and remember to buy in bulk Orchestral Brooch once you get Fortissimo ;)

Your anointed ally will most likely be Fighter so make sure you will explain him the concept and tactic as he will have to be adjecent to enemies for whole EoP to work. Rogue can work too however so explain to them both. Also - at least one of them should be dedicated tripper (ergo - having Crashing Slam either from Fighter Feats or Mauler Archetype).

[Gortle]

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

made you a quick sample level 16 build for Arcane Sorcerer

...
This is sample build where you want to also become THE buffer of party after level 16 with Fortissimo.

It is a nice build. Picking up the initial bonuses from fan dancer, the good single action orcale abilities, plus some good bard cantrips, plus bon mot and the intimidation feats.

Yes this character is trying to be able to be almost everything. If anything it has too many options.

To me it is more curious what you haven't selected.
1) the very good sorcerer Arcane Countermeasure focus spell
2) Arcane Evolution for the spell book
3) none of the extra spell slots for orcale or bard

I guess its is all a trade off.

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

Spell Selection is most important part of caster optimization. However, a lot depends on AP you play. I recommend Gortle's Spell Guide for the Sorcerer PF2 Remastered for good general understanding which spells stand out most (just don't use his sample spell lists!) and for new Impossible Magic this article does very good jon rating them.

Yes my spell lists are fairly old now - largely from 2020. So I don’t have much in the way of new spells here. The lists were just a stab at a resonable standard spell set. I will revise these at some stage in the future.

I also agree Wonton's Impossible Magic Spell Review is pretty good. I need to get to that too.

[Theaitetos]

One of the hidden benefits of Arcane Evolution is the way it interacts with spells that last until your next daily preparations, like Mystic Armor, Spell Immunity or Hidden Mind. For the Long Duration rules allow spontaneous casters to "sustain" such spells by merely expending another spell-slot instead of having to cast the spell again.

For example, you can use Arcane Evolution on day 1 to prepare Spell Immunity and cast it on your Fighter, but on the following days you just expend a spell-slot without preparing Spell Immunity again. This way you can use Arcane Evolution on other spells and still have Spell Immunity up perpetually.

Arcane Evolution also makes you a "prepared caster, so you are eligible to use Grimoires or expend a spell-slot to power up a staff.

[magnuskn]

Thanks for the build, I'll look it over today later. It uses options (Free Archetype, Ancestry Paragon) I don't use, but interesting to see what comes together, nonetheless. :)

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

Gortle wrote:

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

made you a quick sample level 16 build for Arcane Sorcerer

...
This is sample build where you want to also become THE buffer of party after level 16 with Fortissimo.

It is a nice build. Picking up the initial bonuses from fan dancer, the good single action orcale abilities, plus some good bard cantrips, plus bon mot and the intimidation feats.

Yes this character is trying to be able to be almost everything. If anything it has too many options.

To me it is more curious what you haven't selected.
1) the very good sorcerer Arcane Countermeasure focus spell
2) Arcane Evolution for the spell book
3) none of the extra spell slots for orcale or bard

I guess its is all a trade off.

Thanks! Keep in mind this build was made when the only information from OP was that he has Cleric in party. So no Bard (no Fortissimo, no Lingering Composition 60ft anathem, no Synesthesia or Weight of the World) and no Oracle (so no Oracular Warning, no Whisper of Weakness). I was aiming at build that combines personal benefits (Fan Dancer/Oracle) with team support (Oracular Warning and Fortissimo/Anthemic performance) + spells that Cleric won't have but we can cast from Bard like Synesthesia.

It's hard to make 100% optimized build without knowing all other party members classes (at time of making this one) or how much they are coordinating their builds synergy.

I am also used in last 2 APs to be solo caster so I tend to build for patching/filling all holes that party may have. Like OP - if you have no Bard - even if it's level 16 - the fortissimo becomes the single biggest party force multiplier. Especially now that we now that his party has 3 other martials (Rogue, Fighter, Investigator) so that courageous anthem/fortissimo will have huge impact. And no other Charisma caster to take it. But he had Cleric so no need to have healing on Sorc.

Despite Sorcerers great focus spells or even EoP effect, at level 16+ the opening turn (with your huge Initiative bonus) with Fortissimo for +3 for whole team simply beats everything else. And it's still 1 action so you can follow with anything for either CC/debuff or EoP (depending where AA ally is) and get BR from party member same round. Fortissimo is just too good to pass on Charisma caster without Bard in party. Makes "endgame" so much more trivial.

Even when you get Lingering + Couragous the 1 action for 3 rounds worth of +1 and there is no other source of way to get it in for same action/resource cost in party, it's just too good. Especially with 3 martials in party. Party optimization > personal optimization power-wise.

I don't really find it does too much tbh. So quick summary:

-Free Action Battle Cry - easy
-Free Action Oracular Warning - easy
-1 action opening later for Lingering or Firtissimo - easy, only 1 action
-Reaction to trigger EoP - easy
-2 actions for initial spell - easy. Might be wall to split enemies, debuff, burst (AoE or Single), CC.
-Unknown boss - change opening for Whisper of Weakness
-You know lowest save and have opening strong option - Ancestral Memory into spell
- If you opened with Lingering and initiatl spell from next turns you can keep opening with Ancestral Memory save penalty as Lingering lasts 3 rounds. Another opening might be: Lingering/Fortissimo, Whisper of Weakness for identyfing boss save/weaknessa and quicken spell. Flexible.
-No healing as you have divine caster.
-Anoint Ally is kept during exploration so no need to use actions for it in combat.
- triggering EoPs - easy with our spell selections. Again - passive benfit
-Solo Dancer - passive

It may look like "too many options" but overall build is very flexible and a lot of his signature stuff doesn't interfere with others. I played more less same version for Primal and Divine one and its smooth exprience.

As for other stuff:

1. Never had any use of Countermeasure, same as I stopped taking Dispel Magic as signature spell. In few years of playing Sorc I had to use it so few times that from my gameplay experience don't find it necessary. Played 5x 1-20 APs and I simply didn't find much need of them vs just blitz killing encounters. Same reason why I dont value that much sustain or persistent dmg spells (apart from Phantom Pain). So your experience may be different.

2. Imperial was my first remaster sorc 3 Aps ago and I didn't find need of this feat (partially becasue I don't like Learn a Spell stuff or hell, maybe I ignored it from Legacy) and back then I think I just used Signature Spell Expansion feat on lvl 12 or 14 to squeeze that 2 extra signatures on rank 1-3 to "min-max signatures" throughout all ranks to be satisfied with my list. As I replied to Theaitetos - it is very good suggestion though!

And personal note - reason I play Sorcs partially is I hate dealing with Grimoires/Learn a Spell stuff so you can call it my personal bias/shortcoming that I ommited this feat few years ago :)

3. I don't take extra slots as I don't really need them for anything. Especially on Arcane. On Primal I might take Bard ones for Time Jump slot. But on Arcane it's in my opinion waste of better archetype feats. Sorcerer already has so many slots that never felt the need of needing more. But again - this may change depending on your party. If you really miss something you could get from that slots - you can always adjust. But fact that you have to waste Skill Increases to qualify for extra slots above Basic Spellcasting is another reason I don't like it. Charisma skills and Acrobatics is imo way more optimal to increase.

Most spells that I need from other traditions I tend to optimize around having scrolls/wands + retrival belt combo and just knowing what I need for "pulling when needed" and what I permanently have in hands (wands or personal Stave).

Thing is that my whole party optimize so whatever one of us is lacking someone may fill in build. Best optimization results happens when whole party does it.

If he had Bard in party for example I would definitely explore different archetypes, like Beastmaster/Cavalier, Time Mage, Wellspring Mage, Rivethun Emissary, Shadow Dancer, Sixth Pillar etc.

I usually optmize build for new AP for few weeks with my party so all our characters cover absolutely every angle we can.

Now that I know he has Oracle in party, it would require to speak with that player what he plan to use his Cursebound for. If he plan to mostly use Focus Spells or his curse is very punishing, it may still be better for Sorcerer to handle Oracular Warning spam and Whisper of Weakness. But if Oracle take these - I would revist build from different starting approach.

Theaitetos wrote:

One of the hidden benefits of Arcane Evolution is the way it interacts with spells that last until your next daily preparations, like Mystic Armor, Spell Immunity or Hidden Mind. For the Long Duration rules allow spontaneous casters to "sustain" such spells by merely expending another spell-slot instead of having to cast the spell again.

For example, you can use Arcane Evolution on day 1 to prepare Spell Immunity and cast it on your Fighter, but on the following days you just expend a spell-slot without preparing Spell Immunity again. This way you can use Arcane Evolution on other spells and still have Spell Immunity up perpetually.

Arcane Evolution also makes you a "prepared caster, so you are eligible to use Grimoires or expend a spell-slot to power up a staff.

Good stuff. If I will play Arcane Sorc again I will play around this feat more. Though Spell Immunity has that one downside I don't like - it counteracts your spell so you need to keep it heightened so it can protect your ally from your heighetened AoE spells. I guess that you can just keep it max heightened with Arcane Evolution for the day? If so (please let me know if I am wrong) that would make it good for comboing with choosing AoE damage spell for EoP for Imperial. Though it would come online quite late as earliest we can grab it on EoP build is level 12, but better late than never and its still good on 1-20 journey.

[Theaitetos]

I made a thread about Spell Immunity here, but you can always decide to use it 1 rank lower than your blasting spell and hope you succeed the counteract check. Arcane Evolution allows you to prepare the spell at the rank you need it.

At high levels you can use an Amplifying Aeon Stone and have someone Aid you during casting of Spell Immunity to improve its counteract check. Paizo hates on counterspell it seems, for they've never introduced a single bonus option for counteract checks (except mythic).

[Old_Man_Robot]

Somehow I never read Fan Dancer before now. Holy moly!

Now I want a Fan Dancer/Veil Dancer/ Laughing Shadow Magus

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

Theaitetos wrote:

I made a thread about Spell Immunity here, but you can always decide to use it 1 rank lower than your blasting spell and hope you succeed the counteract check. Arcane Evolution allows you to prepare the spell at the rank you need it.

At high levels you can use an Amplifying Aeon Stone and have someone Aid you during casting of Spell Immunity to improve its counteract check. Paizo hates on counterspell it seems, for they've never introduced a single bonus option for counteract checks (except mythic).

Very nice! Thank you for bringing it up and explaining. Now I really want to make my next Sorc arcane even though I prefer Primal just so I can see how this combo of EoP AoE spell with Arcane Evolution and Spell Immunity will work out for Anointed Ally friendly fire.

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Somehow I never read Fan Dancer before now. Holy moly!

Now I want a Fan Dancer/Veil Dancer/ Laughing Shadow Magus

Heh, I know. Fan Dancer at my table is never leaving any charisma caster build! I still have in plans to make melee fan dancer to finally utilise all his awesome feats that I never use on caster but I never got into it.

[Gortle]

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

It may look like "too many options" but overall build is very flexible and a lot of his signature stuff doesn't interfere with others.

Yeah obviously the best build is highly party dependant, and your build does seem a good fit for your party.

What I am concerned about is with regard to maximising your efficiency you have focused on really cool single action options. They are all good options, but you already have so many options. I mean the basic imperial sorcerer will have bon mot, inimidation, and ancestral memories. So you start with 3 good option beyong that which every character gets. Plus you are adding in some nice blood magic effects.

Taking the best bits from the Oracle and Bard is great but doing both just seems like overkill.

The main suggestion I have would be to give yourself more reaction options. Blood Rising is something, but it looks infrequent to me.

I can't see your spell choice so maybe it is covered there eg Cloud Dragon's Cloak, Shadow Projectile, etc ...

Anyway I like One for All, or some of the Clerical focus spells you can get out of either Oracle of Cleric. What do you sugest?

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

Gortle wrote:

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

It may look like "too many options" but overall build is very flexible and a lot of his signature stuff doesn't interfere with others.

Yeah obviously the best build is highly party dependant, and your build does seem a good fit for your party.

What I am concerned about is with regard to maximising your efficiency you have focused on really cool single action options. They are all good options, but you already have so many options. I mean the basic imperial sorcerer will have bon mot, inimidation, and ancestral memories. So you start with 3 good option beyong that which every character gets. Plus you are adding in some nice blood magic effects.

Taking the best bits from the Oracle and Bard is great but doing both just seems like overkill.

The main suggestion I have would be to give yourself more reaction options. Blood Rising is something, but it looks infrequent to me.

I can't see your spell choice so maybe it is covered there eg Cloud Dragon's Cloak, Shadow Projectile, etc ...

Anyway I like One for All, or some of the Clerical focus spells you can get out of either Oracle of Cleric. What do you sugest?

Slot Spells are are already "so many 2 action options for different scenarios" so few 1 action options are in my opinion not that decision-intense as spells are already. It's life of full caster. For different scenarios there are differnt options. Its worth keeping in mind that EoP "spam" doesn't happen until AA ally will move in melee combat. With Fan Dancer that many times leaves first turn more "open" for us.

Also Demoralize and Bon Mot are only low level feats - I' stop using them as Imperial once my Ancestral Memories are +2/-2, you get Fear (3)/Shock an Awe etc. and Demoralize I only use later with Battle Cry as it's free action so why not.

Basically you can break it down like this:

Levels 1-8: Bon Mot, Demoralize for single debuff mostly. Any frighten 1 in party already does Ancestral job but for whole party. Whisper of Weakness for +2 to next attack spell since Ancestral is only +1.

Levels 8-15: Ancestral Memories (+2/-2) for triggering EoPs and single target debuff. Whispers of Weakness (if you dont know enemy saves) still better for opening attack spell if your AA is not adjecent or you don't know boss lowest save. Lingering + Couragous for multiple enemy encounter first turn if you rolled initiative high. If AA ally was first and he is already adject to enemies - then ancestral for EoPs to finish encounter faster. If adjecent enemy/ies died from your first 2 actions + EoP - use Lingering for 3rd since there are no targets for EoP.

Levels 16+: Ancestral fo Single Target debuff unless you dont know lowest save, then Whisper first, especially if AA ally is not adjecent yet. For multiple enemies encounter - Fortissimo first, unless AA ally already adjecent to 2-3 enemies - then EoPs. If full offense on Single Target - Fortissimo + Ancestral + quicken debuff or just Fortissimo + damage EoP/debuff spell if you know lowest save. Or if you feel boss is weak and AA is already adjecent - go ham with EoPs.

In all cases In turn 2+ you should just focus on triggering 3x EoPs with party to finish enemy quicker.

Ergo - Turn 1 depends a lot on initiative order, your levels and encounter shape. It's not really different than from deciding which spell to use when. You are prepared for everything. I played 2 Sorc builds like this one (1 without Bard archetype as we had Bard) and I can guarantee that all blocks fall naturally into place with good, coordinated party.

As for reactions I always have the following reactions as Sorcerer - Unexpected Transposition (wand on Primal/Divine), Shadow Siphon/Spell Riposte (2nd wand on Primal/Divine) - these are my favourites and my main gold sinks to keep max rank, Contingency -> Translocation combo, Zephyr Slip (8th), Nullify.

These are all situational however and they come up only once per several encounters so I mostly save my reaction for EoP. As for Blood Rising being infrequet - that's party coordination issue. You have 3 other members that can easy have access to 1 action cantrip. Someone will "always" have free 3rd action for dealing damage and BR is more attractive option than most 3rd actions due to it dealing free scalling damage. Imagine if it was 1 action cantrip with caster DC that deals 1d/6 rank 5-ft emanation damage. Well worth to use. I won't lie that Blood Rising is as good as your party coordination is.

Unless your GM agrees with Theaitetos that sustaining spell on someone counts as "creature targets you with a spell". My table doesn't think its RAW enough.

Cloud Dragon's Cloak I don't value as offical APs encounters are mostly melee or range enemy can be rushed by your martials since maps are small. Range also is 9 out of 10 just damage so I prefer to save reaction for EoP or protection from melee rush. Melee enemies threat you way more as caster due to reactions, prones, grapples, auras, strike-following-abilities etc. So I never had much use out of Cloud Dragon's Cloak.

Gortle wrote:

Anyway I like One for All, or some of the Clerical focus spells you can get out of either Oracle of Cleric. What do you sugest?

I love One for All! Before Sorcerer remaster rework and Explosion of Power it was my go to for every Charisma Caster. It still is for every Maestro Bard/Psychic/Oracle or any backliner with decent charisma + diplomacy and lack of good reactions. One of best feats in game! If you want to build for it then I would not build for EoP however. 1 action + reaction cost is enough to make EoP build non optimial.

Clerical Focus Spells is something you would have to again commit build (due to feats taken from Oracle and actions to cast them and no EoPs from them). So again - it would be nice alternative build to EoP where I try to maximize damage. One For All non-EoP sorcerer focusing on Cleric Focus spells from Oracle sounds nice too. But not for EoP build.

I am also not big Cleric fan so it's not my best field of expertise and I dont like most of Cleric focus spells. Stand out for me is definitely Remember the Lost since if you play good campaign, it should be easy to fulfill its requirement for 2d10s damage and its a no friendly fire spell. But I never played Cleric myself.

However I have very soft spot for Fire Ray as I value in my party attack spells due to our coordination (for example having in party Fortissimo for +3 and ally aiding me with Cooperative Waffles effect for +5 + off-guard enemy/shadow signet and Hero Point reroll) and Fire Ray into proned + grabbed boss is a lot of fun. Not as good as Primal/Divine ray nuke spells into unholy, but for non-unholy very strong.

[Theaitetos]

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

As for reactions I always have the following reactions as Sorcerer - Unexpected Transposition (wand on Primal/Divine), Shadow Siphon/Spell Riposte (2nd wand on Primal/Divine) - these are my favourites and my main gold sinks to keep max rank, Contingency -> Translocation combo, Zephyr Slip (8th), Nullify.

If these spells don't come up often enough for wands, just put them on Scroll Robes, so you don't have to hold the wands all the time. There is no limit on how many armors you can wear, and a scroll robe is just 1.5 gp with Light bulk.

[magnuskn]

I put what I hope to be a decent Draconic Sorcerer (arcane) together, without the frills of Free Archetype and Ancestry Paragon. Might be useful to someone. Fan Dancer is indeed pretty damned good. The choice was between going for more damage with Oracle archetype or higher initiative with the Fan Dancer and in the end, I think higher initiative wins out, tactically.

Draconic Sorcerer

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

magnuskn wrote:

I put what I hope to be a decent Draconic Sorcerer (arcane) together, without the frills of Free Archetype and Ancestry Paragon. Might be useful to someone. Fan Dancer is indeed pretty damned good. The choice was between going for more damage with Oracle archetype or higher initiative with the Fan Dancer and in the end, I think higher initiative wins out, tactically.

Draconic Sorcerer

Absolutely agree with choosing Fan Dancer considering you are playing without FA. Initiative was always king in RPGs and I don't remember system where it was not. Especially for casters.

As for your build, its super dragon thematic (and very cool) and I think it suits your Dragonblood sorcerer fantasy. I don't want to get into too much analysis as I clearly see you went for thematic over optimization so its decent build!

If I may however, I would consider dropping Acid Grip as it's very mediocre spell (I hope you didn't watch "math"finder video about it becasue its very disingenuous) and instead take some good proper single target damage save spell that you lack like Thunderstrike instead for signature (Reflex). I always like to have at least min of 1 single target good spell for each save so I would still recommend one Will (like Vision of Death/Agonizing Despair) and Fortitude (Forge/Grisly Growths/Vampiric Feast/Necrotize or at least Phantom Orchestra). Dragon claws cover your AC spell attack I guess (you can add Propelling Sorcery blood magic if you really want to move enemies 5ft - move them with claws or gift spell). Also if your group encounters are on scale of more 3+ rounds I would also consider adding good sustain spell like Cinder Swarm.

And I would consider adding Disorienting Flash instead of Force Rain so when you burst single target you can do your Focus Spell 2a + DF 1a combo. Force Rain works but it's d6 vs d10 per rank and Sonic is almost as good as Force and has chance for dazzle.

I would also recommend dropping Disintegrate as mathematically it's very meh spell even with either stacking attack bonus for crit or -3 to enemy fortitude (unless you take for utility?). I'd also change Power Word Kill for Power Word Stun, as if your party goes before boss in initiative (or after) you can turn off his reactions without save.

There are more I would not take or change on your spelllist but I assume you had something thematic in mind and some thematic utility there so I don't want to butt in too much. So just this little feedback.

[Maya Coleman]

Keep things civil, everyone! I'm watching you... *[threatening but playful gif]*

[Theaitetos]

magnuskn wrote:

Draconic Sorcerer

Agreed with Kyle. Though I would recommend another Crossblooded Evolution bloodline, even if you're just going for damage on a blood magic effect. At high levels you do get the option of expanding your repertoire by 3 good additional spells, depending on the bloodline you originally chose.

One of my favorites is Psychopomp, because the bonus damage is vitality/void and you get access to spells like Heal, Calm, and Holy Light. But Aesir and Diabolic are viable too, with electricity/fire damage, and some good divine spells (Heroism, Divine Decree); if you don't want the additional damage, then you can go shopping from Angelic even.

Hidden Mind and 6th-rank Heatvision are candidates for perpetual spells via Arcane Evolution, freeing up your repertoire a bit, so you don't have to heighten True Target or so.

[magnuskn]

Thanks for the feedback. Acid Grip is indeed there for the move (even on a success), to get people out of grapples. It's just the signature spell of that level because there was nothing else on that level which needed it. There are a few other spells at that level I could take, but for example See the Unseen can be taken on a wand or maybe a staff.

I'll see about the crossblooded evolution, I did only take it for the damage boost. The funny thing about Sorcerer is that at level 10 you get four really good feats, so that blocks out a lot of other later options. I probably could do without Overwhelming Energy, since the Recall Knowledge checks of this character are rather poor, anyway.

Disintegrate is on the list for utility (as it's not a signature spell for this character).

Power Word Stun might be a good idea as well.

Thanks again for the feedback!

[Maya Coleman]

Things got civil! I love it!

[Egil Firehair]

Just as a general note, always keep heightened spells in mind.

Frex: my primal Sorcerer took Fireball and set it as a Signature Spell. Now he has an AoE damage spell at any level 3+, and can look at utility spells. (Or non-Reflex spells.)

He could have taken in Slow as a 3rd level spell, but didn't think it all that effective. Instead he took in Water Breathing as a utility spell. No Water Breathing at a lower level, just the 3rd level spell as it lasts 8 hours for five people.

This Sorcerer took in Slow at 6th level, when it would cover 10 targets...

[magnuskn]

What I've discovered is that higher level AOE damage spells tend to have much more interesting riders or options than "just damage", which makes me more likely to choose them and replace Fireball later with some utility option.

By the by, what happens when you replace a signature spell in your repertoire? Do you get to choose the new signature spell at that level or does the replacement automatically become the new signature spell?

[Old_Man_Robot]

Maya Coleman wrote:

Things got civil! I love it!

litters in front of a trash can

Anarchy now!

[Deriven Firelion]

magnuskn wrote:

What I've discovered is that higher level AOE damage spells tend to have much more interesting riders or options than "just damage", which makes me more likely to choose them and replace Fireball later with some utility option.

By the by, what happens when you replace a signature spell in your repertoire? Do you get to choose the new signature spell at that level or does the replacement automatically become the new signature spell?

Yep. Eclipse Burst is brutal. Crit fail and permanent blindness. It is a mook wrecking spell.

Wail of the Damned damage with drained condition.