Setting this thread up for the primary benefit of LoreMonger13 and Unicore, based on this interaction I listed and a couple of posts contesting it:
The interaction is based on the three following Sorcerer mechanics:
The interaction is as follows:
You thus get to trigger blood magic as a free action. The reason I am outlining this is because the two posts contesting it raise the same argument that a spellshape does not provide its benefits unless you Cast a Spell: this fundamentally misunderstands the interaction, because you are not benefiting from the spellshape's effects here. The spellshape's effects are completely irrelevant to this interaction: all that is necessary is that you cast a bloodline spell to trigger blood magic, and the bloodline spell you are using just so happens to be a free action. This means you can cast Extend Blood Magic three times in succession, without modifying anything, and still trigger blood magic three times, each time as a free action. I hope that clears it up.
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Reposting the relevant information here because I still feel this is an erroneous interpretation on the order of operations:
Extend Blood Magic in itself doesn't trigger Blood Magic UNLESS you affect a spell with it, as far as I can parse. Due to this bit of Spellshape: "If you use any action (including free actions and reactions)other than casting a spell directly after, you waste the benefits of the spellshape action."
and Bloodline Magic:
"Whenever you cast a bloodline spell using a Focus Point or a sorcerous gift spell using a spell slot, you choose one blood magic effect you know to benefit from. You begin play with the benefit listed in your bloodline and can gain others through sorcerer feats.
If the blood magic effect offers a choice, make it before resolving the spell. The blood magic effect occurs after resolving any checks for the spell's initial effects and, against a foe, applies only if the spell is a successful attack or the foe fails its saving throw. If the spell has an area, you must designate yourself or one target in the area when you cast the spell to be the target of the blood magic effect. All references to spell rank refer to the rank of the spell you cast."
Taking that altogether, and because Spellshape actions are subservient actions, my understanding is that if you don't immediately Cast a Spell that Extend Bloodline Magic could affect, then "you waste the benefits of the spellshape action" and thus don't trigger a Bloodline Magic effect simply because you burned the focus point and used the action. Because it's a Spellshape and has no effect itself without a spell, the above reading seems like an exceedingly charitable read on somehow getting free (sans Focus Point cost) Bloodline Magic effects without actually casting anything.
Definitely this could use some official rules clarification, but I'd personally err towards the side that if the Spellshape does not occur, then neither does any Bloodline Magic, even if you need to spend a Focus Point to use that Spellshape.
So to clarify where I think this is going wrong: You're reading that the act of spending the focus point itself is what triggers a Blood Magic effect, because casting a Bloodline Spell is one of the things that creates Blood Magic. That's a fair start, certainly. However, because this is a Spellshape, it is contingent on you then Casting a Spell to have ANY effect.
My argument is that if you don't Cast a Spell, then Extend Bloodline Magic is wasted with no benefit, per the bolded line under Spellshape. And part of the benefit is triggering a Blood Magic effect, which itself requires that you resolve the effects of the spell affected by Blood Magic (unless specified otherwise) in order for the Blood Magic to occur.
To simplify my take:
1: Extend Bloodline Magic -> Cast a Spell = Blood Magic to both Extend Bloodline Magic and the Blood Magic that EBM can effect on the spell you cast;
2: EBM x3 -> Cast a Spell = Blood Magic to the last use of EBM and the spell EBM can affect, because the first two were wholly wasted due to Spellshape actions having NO effect until your next action is to Cast a Spell, and Blood Magic only occurring once the affected spell has been resolved;
3: EMB x3 -> All actions spent not Casting a Spell = You don't get any Blood Magic at all because you never reached the qualifying trigger to cause Blood Magic due to the conflict between the Spellshape trait and how Blood Magic only occurs once the effect is resolved, not wasted.
At any rate, this is very clearly a grey area where I imagine a lot of people could argue this in either direction. It would be good for someone on the design team to weigh in, so this would certainly be a "discuss with your table" ruling.
Yep, you're not getting anything from Extend Blood Magic except triggering Blood Magic.
Is there any use for this besides Explosion of Power though? I mean, 10d6 damage three times for 3 Focus Points always seemed more funny than useful to me at 20th level (mostly due to the small radius on Explosion).
Yep, you're not getting anything from Extend Blood Magic except triggering Blood Magic.
Is there any use for this besides Explosion of Power though? I mean, 10d6 damage three times for 3 Focus Points always seemed more funny than useful to me at 20th level (mostly due to the small radius on Explosion).
Exactly this. The spellshape benefits are completely wasted every time you do this (except maybe for the last instance), you just get to trigger blood magic each time. Explosion of Power is how you make this into an exploit, particularly as you can deploy it essentially against whoever you like in an encounter through Anoint Ally. Perhaps by itself, this might still be okay, but when you also layer on Quickened Casting, a damage spell like an 8th-rank chain lightning, and another damage spell like cataclysm, that combined damage really breaks the usual limits on throughput that are otherwise strictly enforced for good reason.
Reposting the relevant information here because I still feel this is an erroneous interpretation on the order of operations:
Extend Blood Magic in itself doesn't trigger Blood Magic UNLESS you affect a spell with it, as far as I can parse. Due to this bit of Spellshape: "If you use any action (including free actions and reactions)other than casting a spell directly after, you waste the benefits of the spellshape action."
As the OP outlines directly, it is this interpretation that is erroneous. Blood Magic itself does not care whether the spell you're triggering it with is a spellshape or not, all that matters is that you're casting a bloodline spell (or a sorcerous gift spell). "The benefits of the spellshape action" as listed are the benefits listed in Extend Blood Magic which, as the above notes, are irrelevant to this interaction. The bold text you are highlighting for blood magic is similarly irrelevant, because Extend Blood Magic does not involve any checks and does not affect an enemy.
Furthermore:
Taking that altogether, and because Spellshape actions are subservient actions, my understanding is that if you don't immediately Cast a Spell that Extend Bloodline Magic could affect, then "you waste the benefits of the spellshape action" and thus don't trigger a Bloodline Magic effect simply because you burned the focus point and used the action.
This is doubly incorrect. Spellshapes are not "subservient actions" in the sense that Striking is a subordinate action to Skirmish Strike, or at the very least Extend Blood Magic isn't: it is its own action, which you use independently of the spell you're trying to modify, and its modification applies to the spell only if you Cast the Spell immediately after using the spellshape. Moreover, even if Extend Blood Magic were a subordinate action, it would still trigger blood magic, because there is no exception listed in blood magic for subordinate actions.
To be extra clear on this: the trigger for blood magic here is not the spellshape action you're using, it is the fact that you are Casting a Spell. The spell's contents do not matter in this instance, and the effects of Casting a Spell are not put on hold unless there is a mechanic explicitly stating this. Casting a spellshape spell does not suspend the effects of Casting a Spell, even if the benefits of the spellshape only apply to a spell you cast immediately after.
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So the big exploit here is to get a one action explosion of power that costs 1 focus point (prior to level 20). But the actual extend blood magic focus spell is actually doing nothing for you at all other than just triggering explosion of power. Before level 20, this is exactly the same as just casting 3 one action force barrage spells, but using focus points instead of spell slots, but at level 20, you get to do both because the extend blood magic focus spell becomes a free action. Now I can do both (cast 1 action magic missile with extended blood magic), but because you are the target of extend blood magic, not the enemy you are targeting with the missile, you also have to work an anoint ally into the mix and wait for them to be in position for explosion of power to really rip.
These are not impossible conditions to meet by any means, but, to me, feels “pie in the sky” enough to me for a level 20 feat requiring 2 additional feats and initiative to line up right and not really be something you can do round 1, for it to be “that is kinda cool the maybe 3 times in an entire campaign it will ever happen” rather than unbalanced.
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Reposting the relevant information here because I still feel this is an erroneous interpretation on the order of operations:
Extend Blood Magic in itself doesn't trigger Blood Magic UNLESS you affect a spell with it, as far as I can parse. Due to this bit of Spellshape: "If you use any action (including free actions and reactions)other than casting a spell directly after, you waste the benefits of the spellshape action."
As the OP outlines directly, it is this interpretation that is erroneous. Blood Magic itself does not care whether the spell you're triggering it with is a spellshape or not, all that matters is that you're casting a bloodline spell (or a sorcerous gift spell). "The benefits of the spellshape action" as listed are the benefits listed in Extend Blood Magic which, as the above notes, are irrelevant to this interaction. The bold text you are highlighting for blood magic is similarly irrelevant, because Extend Blood Magic does not involve any checks and does not affect an enemy.
Furthermore:
Taking that altogether, and because Spellshape actions are subservient actions, my understanding is that if you don't immediately Cast a Spell that Extend Bloodline Magic could affect, then "you waste the benefits of the spellshape action" and thus don't trigger a Bloodline Magic effect simply because you burned the focus point and used the action.This is doubly incorrect. Spellshapes are not "subservient actions" in the sense that Striking is a subordinate action to Skirmish Strike, or at the very least Extend Blood Magic isn't: it is its own action, which you use independently of the spell you're trying to modify, and its modification applies to the spell only if you Cast the Spell immediately after using the spellshape. Moreover, even if Extend Blood Magic were a subordinate action, it would still trigger blood magic, because there is no exception listed in blood magic for subordinate actions.
To be extra clear on...
My contention is that because Blood Magic requires you to resolve a spell's effects before it triggers, anything that would disrupt the spell in question would also disrupt the Blood Magic.
Would you say that if you were Casting a Spell that would trigger Reactive Strike, that the Blood Magic would still occur even if the enemy crit you and your spell was interrupted? Or if they Counterspelled it?
That's what I'm getting at with EBM, you're not resolving the action until you then Cast a Spell, otherwise you waste its benefits which, arguably, includes triggering a Blood Magic effect once it's resolved.
But I've made my personal case and that's how I would run it at my tables. As ever with ambiguous rules (or any rules at all) tables may employ them as they wish.
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So the big exploit here is to get a one action explosion of power that costs 1 focus point (prior to level 20). But the actual extend blood magic focus spell is actually doing nothing for you at all other than just triggering explosion of power. Before level 20, this is exactly the same as just casting 3 one action force barrage spells, but using focus points instead of spell slots, but at level 20, you get to do both because the extend blood magic focus spell becomes a free action. Now I can do both (cast 1 action magic missile with extended blood magic), but because you are the target of extend blood magic, not the enemy you are targeting with the missile, you also have to work an anoint ally into the mix and wait for them to be in position for explosion of power to really rip.
These are not impossible conditions to meet by any means, but, to me, feels “pie in the sky” enough to me for a level 20 feat requiring 2 additional feats and initiative to line up right and not really be something you can do round 1, for it to be “that is kinda cool the maybe 3 times in an entire campaign it will ever happen” rather than unbalanced.
It does feel very White Room to me, too.
So the big exploit here is to get a one action explosion of power that costs 1 focus point (prior to level 20). But the actual extend blood magic focus spell is actually doing nothing for you at all other than just triggering explosion of power. Before level 20, this is exactly the same as just casting 3 one action force barrage spells, but using focus points instead of spell slots, but at level 20, you get to do both because the extend blood magic focus spell becomes a free action. Now I can do both (cast 1 action magic missile with extended blood magic), but because you are the target of extend blood magic, not the enemy you are targeting with the missile, you also have to work an anoint ally into the mix and wait for them to be in position for explosion of power to really rip.
These are not impossible conditions to meet by any means, but, to me, feels “pie in the sky” enough to me for a level 20 feat requiring 2 additional feats and initiative to line up right and not really be something you can do round 1, for it to be “that is kinda cool the maybe 3 times in an entire campaign it will ever happen” rather than unbalanced.
Again, not how it works. You do not need to spend actions or use other spells to trigger this interaction. This means you could cast Extend Blood Magic three times in quick succession, each time as a free action, and trigger blood magic three times without spending any actions.
My contention is that because Blood Magic requires you to resolve a spell's effects before it triggers
Where are you getting the notion that it triggers? Spellshapes don't trigger. You use the spellshape action, which works like any action, and whether or not the spellshape actually modifies a spell comes down to your subsequent action. The action used to spellshape doesn't become lost in limbo until you cast a spell modified by the spellshape.
By contrast, when an action is disrupted, it is stated as such explicitly. You will notice that this is not part of the wording of spellshapes. If you were to disrupt a spellshape action as it was being used, as with Reactive Strike, then the entire action's effects would not occur, as listed in the rules for disrupting actions. Failing to cast an appropriate spell to modify with a spellshape does not disrupt the spellshape action, it simply causes the spellshape's own benefits to be wasted.
That's what I'm getting at with EBM, you're not resolving the action until you then Cast a Spell, otherwise you waste its benefits which, arguably, includes triggering a Blood Magic effect once it's resolved.
This isn't correct though. The benefit of Extend Blood Magic is granting your next spell a bonus effect if it meets certain criteria, which is different from triggering Blood Magic. Even the Spellshape trait is clear on this:
"Any additional effects added by a spellshape action are part of the spell's effect, not of the spellshape action itself."
Extend Blood Magic "resolves" regardless of whether your next spell gains the effect or not, because it's whole purpose was granting it, and it did. You just didn't use it.
Lets forget about this combo for a second. If an Imperial Sorcerer casts Extend Blood Magic, and then casts Haste, they don't get just one Blood Magic effect, they get two:
- The first for casting Extend Blood Magic
- The second for casting Haste, which is extended.
So they could end up with a 1 round +1 status bonus to AC and a 2 round +1 status bonus to saves (or vice versa) if we stick to only Imperial Bloodline effects.
This also works from Extend Blood Magic into Extend Blood Magic, choosing the same bonuses.
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I see where the argument for this and I will concede that RAW that seems to be the case. I will say it's not an erroneous reading, but would personally use the Spellshape caveat I've mentioned as my personal justification for not allowing this exploit at my table as a GM to avoid cheese. BUT, the exploit certainly exists if we do not consider "wasted benefits" of an unused Spellshape to include Blood Magic, since EBM is still a Bloodline Focus Spell.
As far as how I would recommend Paizo solve this, I'd remove the Spellshape trait from EBM and then tweak the language to read more like Ancestral Memories, which has an impact on your spellcasting but is not itself a Spellshape.
Maybe make it a Reaction too rather than a single action, and have it's trigger require that your are going to benefit from a Blood Magic effect that lasts for at least 1 round, keeping it in line with its intended purpose. Then the cost becomes your ability to use your reaction for things like Counterspell, Spell Riposte, or Grab an Edge if you're in a precarious map like a ship at sea or a tall cliff. (ADDENDUM: In fact if you make it a Reaction, you don't even need to remove the Spellshape trait because Spellshape Mastery has no effect on Reactions, only one-action Spellshapes)
But yeh, TL;DR I'm content to concede that the exploit is not an invalid interpretation and could certainly use cleanup.
"Things that will never matter anywhere, for 500 please!"
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There is still the issue of needing to anoint ally and then position the ally correctly before setting off your triple explosion of power, making this more likely a round 2 activity, which means that ceiling for it is still 6 total explosions of power, with 3 top(ish) rank one action force barrage. I still don't think this is all that excessive...
..but I do think the awkwardness of Extend Blood Magic being considered a spellshape, but also a spell is needlessly complicated for how both blood magic and how spellshapes work by itself, even if that only manifests if someone takes a level 20 feat to use it.
I think the question of how impactful we each find this interaction to be is tangential to the core topic of this thread, which is explaining how that interaction works RAW. RAW, Extend Blood Magic can be used to trigger blood magic as a free action, and whether or not we find this interaction problematic, decide to veto it, and so on is largely up to our own taste. My only comment though is that personal rulings should defer to RAW, not the other way round: if an interaction looks problematic and you want to veto it, the reason for vetoing that interaction is that you find it problematic. Arguing that it’s RAW when it’s not to justify that veto I think can end up causing more harm than good in the long run.
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I would not veto it myself. Extend Blood Magic sucks. Extend Blood Magic the spell doesn't even work with Explosion of Power because it has no duration.
I don't see why you would ever do this over using Ancestral Memories. Why would you spend your focus points on Extend Blood Magic to activate Explosion of Power over casting a damage hammer spell with Ancestral Memories also activating Explosion of Power.
It's one of those, "who cares if it works because it's still not a good idea."
Here's your casting.
Best use case I can think of is I guess you could cast three 1 one action force barrages, then free action cast Extend Blood Magic after each one, to use three 1st level spell slots to do force barrage damage while using Explosion of Power six times I guess. I guess that would be pretty brutal.
Be like 1 action force barrage sets off Explosion of Power, then free action Extend Blood Magic sets off Explosion of Power, Then you do it three more times. I guess that would be a pretty nice chunk of damage.
I would not veto it myself. Extend Blood Magic sucks. Extend Blood Magic the spell doesn't even work with Explosion of Power because it has no duration.
I don't see why you would ever do this over using Ancestral Memories. Why would you spend your focus points on Extend Blood Magic to activate Explosion of Power over casting a damage hammer spell with Ancestral Memories also activating Explosion of Power.
It's one of those, "who cares if it works because it's still not a good idea."
Here's your casting.
Best use case I can think of is I guess you could cast three 1 one action force barrages, then free action cast Extend Blood Magic after each one, to use three 1st level spell slots to do force barrage damage while using Explosion of Power six times I guess. I guess that would be pretty brutal.
Be like 1 action force barrage sets off Explosion of Power, then free action Extend Blood Magic sets off Explosion of Power, Then you do it three more times. I guess that would be a pretty nice chunk of damage.
I would refer to the above discussion: the point to the above is that you can trigger the blood magic as a free action. It doesn't matter that Extend Blood Magic sucks, what matters is that it is a blood magic spell that you can end up casting as a free action. To thus answer your question directly, you could use this to load your turn with 3x Extend Blood Magic, Quickened Casting + 8th-rank disintegrate + implosion, activating Explosion of Power 5 times in one turn on top of all this.
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Yes, but only once you get your 20th level feat, and have gotten time after getting your 20th level feat to retrain into extend blood magic, a feat that you would absolutely never use for 19 levels of play. The number of official APs that would give you that kind of time at level 20 are exceedingly low, and even if you did get it, or sat on on extended blood magic for how ever many levels you had to to retrain into it when you last had the opportunity cost, you are still only going to get 3 or 4 encounters at most to play with it.
I think it is worth pointing out that it feels like it is mechanical problem created by the awkward interaction of spell shapes that are also spells, which the game does have these occasional niche little features that interact with both spells and spell shapes in ways that get wonky when one thing can count as both, but it’s not really a practical issue to worry about.
I'm not assuming retraining here. I do, however, agree that this quirk comes from a broken assumption: Spellshape Mastery, and spellshapes in general, seem to run on the basic assumption that using a spellshape action will do nothing useful other than modify a spell, and only if you Cast that Spell immediately afterwards. Because blood magic attaches a benefit to casting certain spells, giving the Sorcerer a spellshape that's also a spell breaks the underlying assumption, and leads to benefits getting attached to a free action.
Ancestral memories is already a 1 action focus spell. Extend blood magic is a terrible waste of a feat until you get the level 20 feat that exploits the wield interaction of “Spellshape, but also spell.” 14 levels is a long time to sit on a dead feat.
As per the above, what you're expressing is very much a matter of personal taste. I can easily think of use cases for spending an action to grant a +1 status bonus to AC or saving throws for 2 rounds, so while that may not be enough to have you pick the option, calling it "a dead feat" is very much a stretch. Similarly, the hypothetical choice to pick Advanced Bloodline at 6th level for this spell and do absolutely nothing with it for 14 levels is a choice among many others that you, and specifically you, are making, one I would argue is clearly worse than others that would involve picking this feat (such as, for instance, actually using the focus spell in an appropriate circumstance). Really, none of this matters terribly in my opinion, the basic fact is that the interaction works in the way it was said to work the first time; how you choose to value it is up to you.
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Extend Blood Magic is absolutely a dead feat. Don't even try to argue that. I've seen over a dozen Imperial Sorcerers and no one has ever used it.
Yeah, its not like extend blood magic is what gives you the +1 status bonus or any other thing you are trying to do, it only makes it last 1 more round, but you are going to keep casting spells next round anyway, so the bonus is going to happen again on its own just fine.
Extend Blood Magic is absolutely a dead feat. Don't even try to argue that. I've seen over a dozen Imperial Sorcerers and no one has ever used it.
I don't take.
I also doubt I take Spellshape Mastery at level 20.
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My issue with this setup is this:
Spellshape Mastery says this:
You can use spellshape single actions as free actions.
Extend Blood Magic isn't a Spellshape single action. It is a Focus Spell, cast using the Cast a Spell activity like any other Focus Spell.
Or to put it another way: that it has the Spellshape Trait and takes a Single Action to Cast doesn't make it other than a Focus Spell.
I would refer to the above discussion: the point to the above is that you can trigger the blood magic as a free action. It doesn't matter that Extend Blood Magic sucks, what matters is that it is a blood magic spell that you can end up casting as a free action. To thus answer your question directly, you could use this to load your turn with 3x Extend Blood Magic, Quickened Casting + 8th-rank disintegrate + implosion, activating Explosion of Power 5 times in one turn on top of all this.I would not veto it myself. Extend Blood Magic sucks. Extend Blood Magic the spell doesn't even work with Explosion of Power because it has no duration.
I don't see why you would ever do this over using Ancestral Memories. Why would you spend your focus points on Extend Blood Magic to activate Explosion of Power over casting a damage hammer spell with Ancestral Memories also activating Explosion of Power.
It's one of those, "who cares if it works because it's still not a good idea."
Here's your casting.
Best use case I can think of is I guess you could cast three 1 one action force barrages, then free action cast Extend Blood Magic after each one, to use three 1st level spell slots to do force barrage damage while using Explosion of Power six times I guess. I guess that would be pretty brutal.
Be like 1 action force barrage sets off Explosion of Power, then free action Extend Blood Magic sets off Explosion of Power, Then you do it three more times. I guess that would be a pretty nice chunk of damage.
So let me see here. I have to use a feat to buy the Extend Blood Magic Spell. Then I have to use a 9th level slot on Implosion and a 6th or 7th level slot on disintegrate against a target, then blow off all my focus points on one target. After setting up Explosion of Power to use against a single target.
Then at level 20 if I do all this and can't think up a better way to use my spells like using Ancestral Memories, then this works.
To get Implosion, a possible 70 point damage hit with a save, and disintegrate which requires an attack roll and a save with no true strike because I've blown all my spell actions, and then use all my focus points to blow off Extend Magic.
To get 9d6 and 7d6 and 10d6, 10d6, 10d6 on a single target with reflex saves.
But here's another monkey wrench in your thinking.
You have to pick up the ability to do two blood magic effects because explosion of power is a blood magic effect with no duration. So you can't use Extend Blood Magic with Explosion of Power. Explosion of Power replaces the normal blood magic effect of a spell.
And you can only activate one blood magic effect unless you pick up the feat that allows you to activate two blood magic effects as one must have a duration to use Extend Blood Magic.
What is that feat again? I can't remember.
To think of it, why IS it a focus spell? It looks LESS valuable than a lot of simple normal spellshapes. Or at least the same.
Even if there are some broken lasting blood magic to combo with, it doesn't look worth focus point in general. It would look normal as a common spellshape. And seems they created a strange problem basically for nothing.
Not many take Extend Blood Magic. It's not a great feat.
We had a discussion about Extend Blood Magic and Explosion of Power a while back, they don't work together because Extend Blood Magic only works with a blood magic effect with a duration. You'd have to pick up the feat to give two blood magic effects, one with a duration to make this all work.
Normally, you take Anoint Ally and then use Explosion of Power off your ally. Explosion of Power is instantaneous, so can't use Extend Blood Magic and it replaces the normal blood magic effect. So it's an either/or effect and not both.
I'm pretty sure there is a feat that allows you to use two blood magic effects at the same time. Can't remember the name of it. But for this combo to work Teridax has to take that feat too because without it you can't use Explosion of Power with Extend Blood Magic.
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You have to pick up the ability to do two blood magic effects because explosion of power is a blood magic effect with no duration. So you can't use Extend Blood Magic with Explosion of Power. Explosion of Power replaces the normal blood magic effect of a spell.
Deriven, you don't need to pick up Blood Sovereignty (that's the feat you're thinking of).
Casting Extend Blood Magic by itself triggers any Blood Magic effect you want (which can be Explosion of Power) because it, itself, is a Bloodline Spell.
Extend Blood Magic isn't a Spellshape single action. It is a Focus Spell, cast using the Cast a Spell activity like any other Focus Spell.
Yes it is, it is both. Focus spells can be single actions too, spells and actions are not mutually exclusive in Pathfinder.
Extend Blood Magic is absolutely a dead feat. Don't even try to argue that. I've seen over a dozen Imperial Sorcerers and no one has ever used it.
And I have seen Imperial Sorcerers take this feat and put it to good use, so once again, this is a matter of taste. I would ask that you do not use your personal preference as license to tell others not to speak, and furthermore, I would ask that you either keep your posts topical to the subject of this thread, which is the explanation of a specific rules interaction (and not how good you think it is), or find some other thread to derail instead.
To get 9d6 and 7d6 and 10d6, 10d6, 10d6 on a single target with reflex saves.
Although the example I cited was mainly to show a use case, your math is also wrong, as for whichever reason you're downranking disintegrate to 7th-rank when I pointed out it could be cast at 8th rank. These Explosions of Power alone make 47d6, or 164.5 average damage, which on top of the other two spells makes for a total of 327.5 raw damage. Were I to use this combo, I likely wouldn't use it on the first round of combat (and given that this would likely involve Anointing an Ally to use Explosion of Power from a safe distance, doing so would likely not be possible), but that damage represents about 60% of Treerazer's HP, so I'd argue that's fairly substantial for a single turn as far as novas in 2e are concerned.
You have to pick up the ability to do two blood magic effects because explosion of power is a blood magic effect with no duration. So you can't use Extend Blood Magic with Explosion of Power. Explosion of Power replaces the normal blood magic effect of a spell.
You visibly do not understand how this interaction works. As the OP and several comments further down make abundantly clear, Extend Blood Magic's specific effects are irrelevant to the conversation. All you need to do is Cast extend blood magic, which as a bloodline spell lets you trigger any blood magic effect of your choice that you have (in this case, Explosion of Power), and do so as a free action as many times as you have Focus Points. The spellshape does not have to modify anything; its benefits are wasted each time.
I will say as a personal note, I'm glad I set up this thread, because clearly there appears to be a lot of misunderstanding around how this rules interaction works, including among experienced players. It's not even the funkiest interaction that's ever cropped up in Pathfinder either, given how it wasn't so long ago that a Magus could trigger the same damage weakness four times in one Spellstrike.
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You have to pick up the ability to do two blood magic effects because explosion of power is a blood magic effect with no duration. So you can't use Extend Blood Magic with Explosion of Power. Explosion of Power replaces the normal blood magic effect of a spell.
You don't though? The actual effect of the extend blood magic spell is completely irrelevant. Just casting it triggers the explosion. The idea is that you can just blow 3 focus points on 30d6 force damage at will during a single turn for 0 actions before doing the rest of your turn.
Say you have two +2 enemies to deal with, typical extreme encounter. You walk up to one, detonate for 30d6 and then quandry the other one and explode for another 10d6. Average damage taking into account saves is probably somewhere around 100 force damage. Is that good? Not really, not when enemies that high have hp pools in the 500s. Is it funny? Kinda.
The important thing is that it's doable by the book because paizo printed a spell that is also a spellshape.
Extend blood magic is weird because casting it, by itself triggers blood magic. So the order of operations is:
Cast EBM. Trigger blood magic (for the oooh powerful example, explosion of power is the only thing worth using). Now you have an active spell shape that will make your next spell (eligible for blood magic) have its blood magic effect last 1 more round).
For the “this is broken combo,” that’s it. You just cast EBM again, completely waste the effect of EBM, and just trigger Explosion again off of having cast another of your bloodline focus spells.
Does it get to count as a spell shape if it cannot be used to modify the next spell you cast (because you are not using a durational blood magic ability?) RAW, it seems like it. Can a character use their last of 3 actions to perform the widen spell shape, even if they don’t cast a spell with it?
But this spell really doesn’t need to be a Spellshape in the first place. It doesn’t do things any differently than ancestral memories, so it should probably just lose the Spellshape tag. That way it can go back to being a feat that is completely useless to take ever, instead of having this one weird niche trick you can do with it 14 levels later.
Let's see this action series.
First Action: So you cast 9th level Implosion. I guess you can cast it at 10th level, but it has to be at a least 9th level. So we'll waste our 10th level slot on Implosion, not something too many people would do but it kind of has to happen as it is your 9th level spell.
Free action: Focus point Extended Blood Magic which activates Explosion of power. 10d6
Free Action Quicken Spell: Reduce a 2 action spell to 1 action.
1 action: Disintegrate 8th level.
Free action: Extend Blood Magic.
Free Action: Extend Blood Magic using the Extend Blood Magic spell to extend blood magic.
10th level implosion: 85 damage untyped and 10d6 force
8th level Disintegrate: 16d10 untyped with 8d6 force
Extend x 3: 30d6 force
Total possible damage:
85 untyped
16d10 untyped
48d6 force damage
All your actions and all your focus points. Sorc version of mega-disintegrate.
That's a lot of potential damage at level 20. Might be worth building for. Wouldn't come up too often.
You could also change out Implosion to 10th level disintegrate. That would boost the damage to 20d10 untyped which even at half damage would be better than implosion.
That might be pretty nasty to build for.
Just one more reason why the sorcerer is an S-tier blaster. Then add on the +10 and +8 status bonus to damage.
Total possible damage:
20d10+10 untyped
16d10+8 untyped
48d6 force damage
Yeah. That would be one absolutely brutal level 20 blast on almost anything.
Definitely why the sorc is the undisputed S-tier blaster of PF2. This is just one more way to do it.
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Would that match quickened mega-disintegrate.
Wizard Spell Combination.
10th level double disintegrate but two levels lower:
32d10 untyped
Quicken with 8th level double disintegrate.
24d10 untyped
Potential Damage: 560 untyped with an average of 176 and 132 or 308.
Sorc Potential damage:
Total possible damage:
20d10+10 untyped
16d10+8 untyped
48d6 force damage
210 and 168 untyped and 288 or 666 damage (dark number, so we will call this the Sorcs Devil Disintegrate)
Average damage: 120 and 96 and 168 or 384 average damage
Hmm. So it seems the sorc at level 20 can outdamage mega-disintegrate. This build might be worth doing. That is an absolutely brutal combo.
You can do it all day with Extend Blood Magic focus points regnerating with lower level spell slots.
Sorc is indeed the ultimate S-tier blaster.
Teridax, I must commend you. This is indeed a potent blasting combo. It further cements the Sorc as an untouchable blaster.
Nice addition there, Kyle. Maybe use Effortless concentration to summon some creature that can cast some spell on you to trigger Blood Rising reaction as often as possible.
Sorc has almost always made the wizard look like their little brother in PF2.
Kyle,
I'm not concerned about someone acquiring the cantrip. I think most players won't want to spend the actions to cast a cantrip on another player so they can do some damage.
But a high level sorc will get effortless concentration, so they can summon some creature, sustain it with effortless concentration, then have the creature cast the cantrip on them.
Best I can find quick is a ghost mage. That would only be a 5th level cantrip. 5d6 force damage.
The quicken casting of disintegrate is once a day.
Deriven, how many encounters does your party typically get at level 20 before the campaign is over? Or do you all build characters for level 20 and then do campaigns at that level?
The quicken casting of disintegrate is once a day.
Deriven, how many encounters does your party typically get at level 20 before the campaign is over? Or do you all build characters for level 20 and then do campaigns at that level?
We usually do modules and if someone makes something it's some end game encounter.
Modules maybe 6 to 8 encounters. One section.
It's not long. It's nothing to worry about. At level 20 we just let people be crazy tough.
Kyle,
I'm not concerned about someone acquiring the cantrip. I think most players won't want to spend the actions to cast a cantrip on another player so they can do some damage.
But a high level sorc will get effortless concentration, so they can summon some creature, sustain it with effortless concentration, then have the creature cast the cantrip on them.
Best I can find quick is a ghost mage. That would only be a 5th level cantrip. 5d6 force damage.
Thats not my experience and I already played three AA EoP Sorcerers in 1-20 campaigns. Players were always happy to do team work an if they had free 3rd action they were more than happy to make Joe The Exploding Martial to explode again. Hell, Joe was more than happy as Message cantrip doesn't have manipulation trait so on 3rd action he could blow himself again.
Also many characters that are together in backline with sorcerer don't have much to do with 3rd action anyway many times so they were very eager to cause serious damage instead of rising shield again even though nobody was near them to attack them.
And since that tactic scales aaaaaaaall the way from lvl 8 till 20 with 10th level cantrip, it's always good. Maybe I am just lucky and get players that work as team instead of chasing only individual style points but in 3 party I played people loved to help Joe explode.
Speaking of nova. The other underrated Nova is Angelic Sorcerer with Holy Light and EoP and Blood Rising Vs Unholy target (which is a lot of enemies especially on higher levels or for example pretty much ALL enemies in Blood Lords):
10th rank Holy Light + quicken Holy Light + Blood Rising EoP Vs Unholy enemy is 68d6 +18 + 30d6 for total of 361 average DMG.
Sufficient to say Sorcerer since remaster has been my favourite caster as I finally feel blaster caster is doing respectable damage and having fun doing so. Anoint Ally is also such s fun way to have fun together with your party martials. It also elevates grapplings and other...
1 action message. That is getting in some deep optimization. I commend you.
Most of my team won't cast a 2 action cantrip, but 1 action might be doable. Message. Haha. That is something that that works.
Is that the main 1 action cantrip someone could cast on you? That looks like the only 1 action cantrip that would fit the bill.
And I have seen Imperial Sorcerers take this feat and put it to good use, so once again, this is a matter of taste.Put your money where your mouth is and give us those examples of "good use" before level 20. Otherwise I would ask you not to lie by making stuff up.
In my opinion, the entire Extend Blood Magic focus spell needs to be reworked, because it's a complete mess.
Before level 20, I just use explosion of power with Anoint Ally with Ancestral Memories for an extra spell rank x d6 damage on top of whatever spell I cast.
No one is ever going to present a strong argument for Extend Blood Magic being a clutch use of a feat and focus point over just using ancestral memories because trigger blood magic and have your spell slot spell be more likely to land (with no restriction on what spell you might cast, but still could trigger blood magic itself) is much better than trigger one blood magic effect, then a second one that has to have a duration that will last one round longer, off a much more restricted spell list.
What might happen is that some one takes the feat to get extend blood magic just because it gives them an extra focus point without having to go into an archetype to get more focus points, and then just sit on it most of the time, but run into some non-combat encounter or a lighter combat encounter where they were going to cast haste or some other bloodline spell that doesn’t target an enemy, and isn’t threatening enough to want to use that focus point later for an ancestral memories on an offensive spell…so being able to milk one more round out of a protective blood magic, and getting a second blood magic off in the same turn might be better than not being able to do that.
...Kyle,
I'm not concerned about someone acquiring the cantrip. I think most players won't want to spend the actions to cast a cantrip on another player so they can do some damage.
But a high level sorc will get effortless concentration, so they can summon some creature, sustain it with effortless concentration, then have the creature cast the cantrip on them.
Best I can find quick is a ghost mage. That would only be a 5th level cantrip. 5d6 force damage.
Thats not my experience and I already played three AA EoP Sorcerers in 1-20 campaigns. Players were always happy to do team work an if they had free 3rd action they were more than happy to make Joe The Exploding Martial to explode again. Hell, Joe was more than happy as Message cantrip doesn't have manipulation trait so on 3rd action he could blow himself again.
Also many characters that are together in backline with sorcerer don't have much to do with 3rd action anyway many times so they were very eager to cause serious damage instead of rising shield again even though nobody was near them to attack them.
And since that tactic scales aaaaaaaall the way from lvl 8 till 20 with 10th level cantrip, it's always good. Maybe I am just lucky and get players that work as team instead of chasing only individual style points but in 3 party I played people loved to help Joe explode.
Speaking of nova. The other underrated Nova is Angelic Sorcerer with Holy Light and EoP and Blood Rising Vs Unholy target (which is a lot of enemies especially on higher levels or for example pretty much ALL enemies in Blood Lords):
10th rank Holy Light + quicken Holy Light + Blood Rising EoP Vs Unholy enemy is 68d6 +18 + 30d6 for total of 361 average DMG.
Sufficient to say Sorcerer since remaster has been my favourite caster as I finally feel blaster caster is doing respectable damage and having fun doing so. Anoint Ally is also such s fun way to have fun
I should be able to talk a martial into this, especially if it is the martial I use anoint ally on. Then they would feel like they were doing the damage with their third action.
This is a great idea for sorc/martial teamwork that I did not consider. Intuitively, you would think Blood Rising would be focused on a hostile use of a spell as payback, but the way it is written clearly allows a spell like message to activate it. Maybe this was intentional, but you can never be sure. It definitely works and one of the many reasons the sorcerer and spontaneous casters are superior to the wizard in this edition.