moosher12 wrote: Remastered first party non-licensed content. This is not a yes or no answer. You don't refer to the Kineticist as remastered OGL-licensed content. You refer to the Kineticist as not remastered.
moosher12 wrote: Though, I see where you are trying to go with this. You're trying to catch me with what you see as an inconsistency that if unlicensed content can still be a remaster, and be fine, then incorrectly licensed content can be considered remaster, and be fine. That's kind of what I have to do at this point. I said a couple of posts back that this is purely a difference in how we use the word remastered, and then tried to explain my point of view. Your replies read like you reject that.
moosher12 wrote: I'll remind the difference between nonlicensed content, and incorrectly licensed content. Here's the thing, I as a writer, am already fine with content being intentionally unlicensed. Let's look at the April Fool's blog you like to use as an example. These items are not actually up to QA standards. They are not vetted for product use for the intended gameplay. Some entries, like the cat on keyboard, don't even work, while other enties, like Speedrun Stats, can actively break the game. They are unlicensed, because they are not an intended part of the actual game. And that's fine. Paizo has the right to leave things unlicensed for any reason, if low QA for a meme is the reason, I'd rather it be that over them being possessive of their IP. Note that at no point in here did you say the content was not remastered. You're only referring to the license. To me, and I'm willing to bet most people on these boards, remastered refers to the rules, not the license.
moosher12 wrote: But ultimately, your question does not act as a relevant counterpoint, because Kineticist is not unlicensed. It is licensed, and that is a different issue. This license is not compatible with the rest of the body of the Remastered content, and is only compatible with Legacy content. By these metrics then you know Magus and Summoner in Secrets of Magic. Those are Remastered content, because they got an errata pass. Barbarian in Core Rulebook? That's a remaster class, because it does not need compatibility to function in Remaster, and therefore, is remaster. Bold by me. Magus and Summoner are not remaster classes any more than Kineticist. As far as publishing is concerned, all three classes only have an OGL publication they appear in (until Impossible Magic comes out a the end of the month). The errata did not change which license they were published under. In fact, unless the errata is included in a published product, the errata itself is not licensed under OGL or ORC.
And for Barbarian, do you mean Player Core instead of Core Rulebook? Because the Barbarian in the Core Rulebook is not ORC or remastered. You could not refer to the Mighty Rage free action they gain at 11th level in an ORC-licensed book.
moosher12 wrote: According to this logic. You as a player or GM can say, "It looks remastered because I can use it in my game without issue." You as a customer are not subject to any regulation, you can take any legacy class, apply any needed errata, and apply it to your game. A writer can say "It's unlicensed, so no one can use it." and that's fine, because they may want to protect their IP. But what do you do when a writer has to say, "I can only mix the Kineticist with Legacy content, so for practical purposes, it might as well be Legacy to me."? As a writer in that situation, you have to realize that most people you talk with are not writers in that situation. You've now had two different people ask you for clarification in a short period of time when you've said the Kineticist is not remastered. And each time you've had to explain that you mean they are not published under the ORC license. Because how most people use the word "remastered", they mean rules that are usable without conversion. To us, a class, feat or other rules element either is remastered or isn't. To most people, it does not matter whether this is because it got errata or re-released, and neither does its licensing status.
I am not even saying you are wrong. Clearly the license is important to you as a writer, so they way you use "remastered" is correct for you. But I will say that you will continue to confuse people if you refer to content that is rules-wise remastered as non-remastered. Because then people expect there to be something wrong with the rules like using old terms, not the license.
I need to ask: WHAT is there to remaster for the Ifrit, Oread, Sylph and Undine anyway?
To me, the only geniekin worth remastering is the Suli, because now you need to factor 2 extra elemental planes going from 4 to 6. Yeah, pretty sure that Tetramental Assault should be now an "Hexamental" one ^^;
The rest though? Not too sure...
moosher12 wrote: Brief side note if Kineticist did get extra material: Personally, I have a quiet hope that Kineticist at some point could get a feat that lets you impulse through a held implement. I've been wanting to do an air kineticist that dual wields fans for a long time, but the fact that they can hold at most one fan is a bit saddening. Would love to see a feat that let you cast impulses with your hands full, using a held implement as a focus for the impulse, and potentially even letting you graft some elemental power onto an existing weapon if the implement is one, instead of creating a weapon from elemental power. Wait, Avatar made a joke about something similar.
JiCi wrote: I need to ask: WHAT is there to remaster for the Ifrit, Oread, Sylph and Undine anyway?
To me, the only geniekin worth remastering is the Suli, because now you need to factor 2 extra elemental planes going from 4 to 6. Yeah, pretty sure that Tetramental Assault should be now an "Hexamental" one ^^;
The rest though? Not too sure...
Besides that, actually putting in the ifrit's new name in a book.
JiCi wrote: I need to ask: WHAT is there to remaster for the Ifrit, Oread, Sylph and Undine anyway?
To me, the only geniekin worth remastering is the Suli, because now you need to factor 2 extra elemental planes going from 4 to 6. Yeah, pretty sure that Tetramental Assault should be now an "Hexamental" one ^^;
The rest though? Not too sure...
For me, at least, it's less a need and more. It would be cool to polish them up and add new feats. Everything that we have is perfectly workable already, but I'd like to see what they would add, or buff, or whatever, if they went through the original four after all these years. I like elemental themed characters, and I'd love to get more themed feats for them, and a Remastered version seems like the most likely way to get that.
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JiCi wrote: I need to ask: WHAT is there to remaster for the Ifrit, Oread, Sylph and Undine anyway?
To me, the only geniekin worth remastering is the Suli, because now you need to factor 2 extra elemental planes going from 4 to 6. Yeah, pretty sure that Tetramental Assault should be now an "Hexamental" one ^^;
The rest though? Not too sure...
Aside from the fact that remastering one and not the others would be confusing, most of the ancestry guide reprints have given a significant improvement, especially thanks to the extra page space produced by collapsing the weapon familiarity feats into one.
Also various licensing nonsense I don't understand fully means it's nice to have an ORC version of things.
Nightwhisper wrote: This is not a yes or no answer. You don't refer to the Kineticist as remastered OGL-licensed content. You refer to the Kineticist as not remastered. All this is why I try to refer to it as a Legacy/Remaster hybrid, but I cannot refer to it as wholly remaster or wholly legacy. The issue is, a yes or no question cannot be honestly answered, because the actual answer is yes and no. Because I cannot say yes, because from this writer's space, it is effectively Legacy. But I cannot say no either, because it is still Remastered language, and works within the realm. So I cannot say yes, or no. Because neither answer is wholly correct. If I answered any of these, I'd be lying in one way or another. But I take this seriously, and do not wish to lie.
Nightwhisper wrote: Note that at no point in here did you say the content was not remastered. You're only referring to the license. To me, and I'm willing to bet most people on these boards, remastered refers to the rules, not the license. This is why I exerted from the beginning that players and GMs do not need to care about this distinction. It is a distinction that is important to writers. But that is why the problem feels alien and insignificant, when there is significance to it. I say this, because it's a blind spot from your perspective. It's still an important blind spot, mind you. Because there is one way in which the player and GM is affected, but when they participate in 3rd party products. Someone can make a lovely book on class expansions, or an adventure where various classes appear as NPCs that you might be interested in, and you can ask, "Hey where's Kineticist?" Well, the answer is in the previous posts. It means a hole in content.
Nightwhisper wrote: Magus and Summoner are not remaster classes any more than Kineticist. As far as publishing is concerned, all three classes only have an OGL publication they appear in (until Impossible Magic comes out a the end of the month). The errata did not change which license they were published under. In fact, unless the errata is included in a published product, the errata itself is not licensed under OGL or ORC.
And for Barbarian, do you mean Player Core instead of Core Rulebook? Because the Barbarian in the Core Rulebook is not ORC or remastered. You could not refer to the Mighty Rage free action they gain at 11th level in an ORC-licensed book.
Which is sort of my point. Firstly, yes, as for the Barbarian, I do mean the Core Rulebook, OGL license, published in 2019. Thank you for checking, but you did read me right. Those entries are and will always be OGL content until replaced, and the errata won't upgrade their license, but it did bring their mechanics up to Remastered par. And no, I cannot refer to that class action, but as far as customers were concerned, it does not affect them. I believe you said,
Nightwhisper wrote: "To me, and I'm willing to bet most people on these boards, remastered refers to the rules, not the license. " Players and GMs can use it just fine. I ran Legacy Barbarians in my game with zero issue, because in this space, I don't have to care about licensing. Because very few of the rule changes actually touched the Barbarian's functionality. And with this logic, many players and GMs during the OGL situation exerted that all of these classes, Out of 23 OGL classes, the remaining 15, were all effectively Remastered content, because the mechanics was all that was important. Licensing is a dubious higher concept that most customers don't have to care about. I brought this point forward because I do not agree with it. I see any discrediting of Kineticists need for the license as in tune with the same exertations that the other 15 classes did not need republishing under ORC books. Because the errata already did its job and made them work. I was in the faction that said ALL classes needed to be republished into ORC to earn the name Remaster, and I still stand by that stance with one class left. It can be made as compatible as possible, but while it's OGL, I cannot 100% consider it Remaster, nor will I participate in deluding others that it is anything other than what it actually is. All those folks that said we never needed these books sure aren't complaining that these books came out.
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To repeat myself, that's what makes Rage of Elements so frustrating. It is very Remaster. I've said this before, but that it is not compatible with Remaster content, is what is so frustrating. Because I CAN use it. OGL is right there. I just can't use it with the content it's made to work with. The fact I cannot say it is wholly remaster is a problem. Because I want to be able to answer your question yes. But I would be lying if I answered yes, and I'd be lying if I answered no. Your question is one that cannot be answered the way you wish for it to be. So please, Paizo, make it to where I can answer yes.
Lightning Sentinel wrote: moosher12 wrote: Brief side note if Kineticist did get extra material: Personally, I have a quiet hope that Kineticist at some point could get a feat that lets you impulse through a held implement. I've been wanting to do an air kineticist that dual wields fans for a long time, but the fact that they can hold at most one fan is a bit saddening. Would love to see a feat that let you cast impulses with your hands full, using a held implement as a focus for the impulse, and potentially even letting you graft some elemental power onto an existing weapon if the implement is one, instead of creating a weapon from elemental power. Wait, Avatar made a joke about something similar. Oh they did, how so?
JiCi wrote: I need to ask: WHAT is there to remaster for the Ifrit, Oread, Sylph and Undine anyway?
To me, the only geniekin worth remastering is the Suli, because now you need to factor 2 extra elemental planes going from 4 to 6. Yeah, pretty sure that Tetramental Assault should be now an "Hexamental" one ^^;
The rest though? Not too sure...
Changing Aquan to Thallassic, Auran to Susurran, Ifrit to Naari, Ignan to Pyric, and Terran to Petran are the guaranteed changes. There might be some formatting changes without actually changing any abilities. There's also the offchance of all geniekin being combined into one heritage, which would mean a complete overhaul.
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moosher12 wrote: Lightning Sentinel wrote: moosher12 wrote: Brief side note if Kineticist did get extra material: Personally, I have a quiet hope that Kineticist at some point could get a feat that lets you impulse through a held implement. I've been wanting to do an air kineticist that dual wields fans for a long time, but the fact that they can hold at most one fan is a bit saddening. Would love to see a feat that let you cast impulses with your hands full, using a held implement as a focus for the impulse, and potentially even letting you graft some elemental power onto an existing weapon if the implement is one, instead of creating a weapon from elemental power. Wait, Avatar made a joke about something similar. Oh they did, how so? A brief scene in season 3 in a weapon and armor store with Aang wearing excessively ornate heavy armor covered in skulls and spikes and him mentioning an "air sword" that's a sword hilt that he could airbend through. And then he fell backwards.
On a more serious note, I wouldn't complain if Kinetic Activation additionally got that for corresponding elements, at least wands and staves, possibly held relics as well.
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Yeah, because I'll admit, being able to spawn a weapon from elements is still cool. But sometimes you just want to attune an existing weapon to the elements, having a signature item. Sometimes you want fans that blow wind, a hammer that channels electricity, to create elemental ammo fired from a bow, or even a gun, a staff that infuses with metal to become a polearm. etc, etc.
moosher12 wrote: Yeah, because I'll admit, being able to spawn a weapon from elements is still cool. But sometimes you just want to attune an existing weapon to the elements, having a signature item. Sometimes you want fans that blow wind, a hammer that channels electricity, to create elemental ammo fired from a bow, or even a gun, a staff that infuses with metal to become a polearm. etc, etc. Well, we can always flavor our impulses as coming from an item in our hands as long as this item actually does nothing other than the visuals.
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BotBrain wrote: JiCi wrote: I need to ask: WHAT is there to remaster for the Ifrit, Oread, Sylph and Undine anyway?
To me, the only geniekin worth remastering is the Suli, because now you need to factor 2 extra elemental planes going from 4 to 6. Yeah, pretty sure that Tetramental Assault should be now an "Hexamental" one ^^;
The rest though? Not too sure...
Aside from the fact that remastering one and not the others would be confusing, most of the ancestry guide reprints have given a significant improvement, especially thanks to the extra page space produced by collapsing the weapon familiarity feats into one.
Also various licensing nonsense I don't understand fully means it's nice to have an ORC version of things. The licensing on this is actually pretty simple: if it's OGL, only the creator (ie Paizo) can use it willy-nilly without fear of Hasbro/WotC suing them. If it's ORC, anybody who uses ORC can freely use it.
The Raven Black wrote: moosher12 wrote: Yeah, because I'll admit, being able to spawn a weapon from elements is still cool. But sometimes you just want to attune an existing weapon to the elements, having a signature item. Sometimes you want fans that blow wind, a hammer that channels electricity, to create elemental ammo fired from a bow, or even a gun, a staff that infuses with metal to become a polearm. etc, etc. Well, we can always flavor our impulses as coming from an item in our hands as long as this item actually does nothing other than the visuals. Unfortunately, strictly speaking, we can only do that if the weapon is one handed. The requirement is that we have one hand free. Even if the item is a prop with no effect, that cannot satisfy the hand free requirement if it is two-handed, or involves using two props.
Of course, a GM can override this as a home rule. And I often do override this limitation myself, but relying on the goodwill of a GM is not always a reliable gambit, and I'd prefer, if possible, to see a 100% vanilla option over a reasonable GM override.
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The Raven Black wrote:
The licensing on this is actually pretty simple: if it's OGL, only the creator (ie Paizo) can use it willy-nilly without fear of Hasbro/WotC suing them. If it's ORC, anybody who uses ORC can freely use it.
Minor correction, but you're otherwise correct. When using OGL, Paizo is actually the 3rd party company. Paizo can use OGL, but they still have to worry about Hasbro/Wotc, and all OGL Paizo content is mechanically usable by other writers who use OGL with proper crediting, which includes Hasbro/Wotc. So in OGL's case, the creator is actually Wotc/Hasbro with the System Reference Document of 2000, not Paizo. It is ORC where Paizo is the creator.
Though, when dealing with original ideas, the creator of an original mechanic can put it to an array of different licenses and still own the idea. But the licenses determine how much rights other 3rd parties have to use their work
I could have sworn there was art for portraying what might have been Weapon Infusion as a temporary weapon made of elements, but I can't find it.
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