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One thing I’ve never really understood is why thrown weapons use Dexterity for accuracy instead of Strength. It would make more sense if thrown weapons were tied to Strength by default, while finesse thrown weapons like daggers could use either Strength or Dexterity. From a balance perspective, Dexterity-based characters already have little reason to use thrown weapons outside of flavor. Thrown weapons require far more investment to function properly (such as Quick Draw and a returning rune) while regular ranged weapons offer much better range and more useful traits with fewer drawbacks. From a logic standpoint, throwing something effectively relies more on physical power than finesse. The exception would be small weapons specifically designed for throwing, like darts, where precision and technique matter more than strength.
PF2e is melee-centric, to the point where all-melee parties are fairly common. That often forces GMs into awkward situations when dealing with flying enemies, either avoiding using flying creatures altogether, have them ignore the fact that they can fly, or keep them low enough for players to hit with jumps and melee Strikes. On top of that, keeping a primary melee weapon fully upgraded is already expensive enough as is, so asking Strength-based characters to maintain an upgraded thrown weapon as a backup feels unreasonable, especially when they’ll be attacking with a −3 or −4 penalty compared to their main weapon.
Fundamentally, drawing the weapon is *not* reloading, and getting those mixed up is how the devs created this mess.
The rules on ranged combat are so slipshod, that "Reload x" means different things btwn projectile and throwing weapons.
Projectile Reload 0 means that no bonus actions need to be spent to ready the weapon to fire.
Thrown Reload 0, explained by Shuriken, means that you skip one normally required draw action.
Because of that contradiction, someone had to invent and explain a non-number of Reload "-", which is the proper "Reload 0" that means "0 extra actions needed."
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Truthfully, Shuriken should be "Reload -1",* allowing Javelin, etc, to be the proper "Reload 0"
*really though, Shuriken should have a [quickdraw] trait that carries that mechanic, because again, drawing a weapon and reloading are two different concepts, lol.
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Just don't forget that GMs can/should houserule and improve the pf2 system. It's fine to look at the rules and feats needed for ranged weapons, and then say "That's dumb, you don't need to do that. Instead, ____"
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One thing I’ve never really understood is why thrown weapons use Dexterity for accuracy instead of Strength. It would make more sense if thrown weapons were tied to Strength by default, while finesse thrown weapons like daggers could use either Strength or Dexterity. From a balance perspective, Dexterity-based characters already have little reason to use thrown weapons outside of flavor. Thrown weapons require far more investment to function properly (such as Quick Draw and a returning rune) while regular ranged weapons offer much better range and more useful traits with fewer drawbacks. From a logic standpoint, throwing something effectively relies more on physical power than finesse. The exception would be small weapons specifically designed for throwing, like darts, where precision and technique matter more than strength.
PF2e is melee-centric, to the point where all-melee parties are fairly common. That often forces GMs into awkward situations when dealing with flying enemies, either avoiding using flying creatures altogether, have them ignore the fact that they can fly, or keep them low enough for players to hit with jumps and melee Strikes. On top of that, keeping a primary melee weapon fully upgraded is already expensive enough as is, so asking Strength-based characters to maintain an upgraded thrown weapon as a backup feels unreasonable, especially when they’ll be attacking with a −3 or −4 penalty compared to their main weapon.
We have literal decades of trying to avoid DEX or STR supremacy in DnD score systems, or trying to argue in one direction or the other.
Trying to restart it will likely just derail the discussion.
I don't see how anything I said contributes to "DEX or STR supremacy".
Dex characters are already the kings of ranged combat by virtue of being the only ones that can actually fight at range. They also have access to finesse weapons, which despite what most people think aren't that weaker than the best pure Strength weapons. Meanwhile, Str characters have access to the weapons with the highest damage but those have their downsides like having your hands occupied all the time and no ranged optiosn whatsoever, which for a melee-centric system such as PF2e limits the encounter design by not allowing GMs to make encounters with flying enemies because they can potentially alienate most members in the party.
Thrown weapons don't have a niche at all. Nobody uses them outside of flavor. So what would be wrong about allowing Str characters to use them as a back up in case a ranged combat happens without having to invest GP and attributes into something that's already really situational?
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I don't think you're getting your point across.
Str thrown weapons (and Dex finesse thrown) would, in your opinion, contribute to Str supremacy? If that's the case, how isn't Dex weapons contributing to Dex supremacy when it already applies to both melee finesse and ranged? Str thrown weapons is a QoL improvement that changes nearly nothing about how Str and Dex characters work, with the exception that characters that didn't have a way to contribute to ranged character now have a (subpar) option to do so.
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Str thrown weapons is a QoL improvement that changes nearly nothing about how Str and Dex characters work, with the exception that characters that didn't have a way to contribute to ranged character now have a (subpar) option to do so.Only that of course they already have that option: thrown and ranged weapons.
Except they don't, unless you are seriously pretending every Str martial should invest into Dex in they case they just happen to have a bad GM that designs an encounter without taking them into account, and at the same time gives them enough GP or runes to keep a second weapon fully upgraded at all times.
The changes I'm proposing don't solve the second issue, but it at least allows Str martials to not be forced to use a ranged thrown weapon with a -4 or worse to hit when compared to their main weapon, worst range than every other ranged option, and that still requires Quick Draw and a returning rune to function at all.
Like, I'm surprised there's people against it. The design of thrown weapons is so poorly made (like ranged combat in general, but worse in this case) that I didn't think this many people would be against making it a tiny bit less bad for Str characters (which can't interact with it at all).
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I don't think you're getting your point across.
Str thrown weapons (and Dex finesse thrown) would, in your opinion, contribute to Str supremacy? If that's the case, how isn't Dex weapons contributing to Dex supremacy when it already applies to both melee finesse and ranged? Str thrown weapons is a QoL improvement that changes nearly nothing about how Str and Dex characters work, with the exception that characters that didn't have a way to contribute to ranged character now have a (subpar) option to do so.
I find Aklys, Bola, Combat Fishing Pole, Flying Talon and Wrecker to be a Str option for short ranged combat. Ranged Trip doesn't cause damage on it's own, but a successful trip causes a fall.
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Dual thrower is a pretty good feat. It lets you treat thrown and 1 handed ranged weapons as melee weapons for purposes of two-weapon warrior feats.
Returning is a level 3 rune. Ricocheting Stance is a level 6 fighter feat.
Now you can use a ton of fighter feats with two thrown weapons all day long.
Plenty of feats work just fine with thrown weapons. The below feats are fighter feats that work with Thrown weapons. This doesn't include the feats that are explicitly for thrown (i.e. ricocheting stance).
Point Blank Stance
Exacting Strike
Assisting Shot
Advantageous Assault
Mobile Shot Stance
Felling Strike
Incredible Aim
Agile Grace
Debilitating Shot
Savage Critical.
That's 10 feats. Is throwing the best option in the game? No. Is it perfectly viable? Yes.
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There's nothing super wrong about forcing melee to spend a combat at -x for using a bow at +0 dex instead of whatever their str bonus is. Particularly in the earliest levels where casters likely still have magic weapon on their bar so the two weapons thing isn't even a factor.
It's a total nonfactor in the midlevels where flight becomes available and if the whole party failed to have a plan for flying enemies, or worse, knew it was an issue and did nothing, then it's not bad gm-ing to exploit that to force them into being prepared for it afterwards.
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There's nothing super wrong about forcing melee to spend a combat at -x for using a bow at +0 dex instead of whatever their str bonus is. Particularly in the earliest levels where casters likely still have magic weapon on their bar so the two weapons thing isn't even a factor.
Except I'm not asking a Str character to use their Str modifier to use a bow here, I'm asking for a Str character to use their Str modifier for a hatchet, javelin, or similar non-finesse thrown weapons (usually between 10 ft and 30 ft range), which I think we can agree are way worse than bows (between 60 ft and 100 ft range). And I'm saying this without taking into account that these, unlike a bow, require a returning rune and Quick Draw to function at all.
I find Aklys, Bola, Combat Fishing Pole, Flying Talon and Wrecker to be a Str option for short ranged combat. Ranged Trip doesn't cause damage on it's own, but a successful trip causes a fall.
This is exactly what I described earlier as "limits the encounter design by not allowing GMs to make encounters with flying enemies because they can potentially alienate most members in the party". Why would a flying enemy remain not further than 20 ft (the range of all the weapons you describe here) when they likely could have moved further away to avoid being tripped at range? Out of 1096 creatures that have a flying speed, only 62 have a flying speed lower than 20 ft (thanks AoN). This means that your "Str option for short ranged combat" only affect between 5-6% of flying enemies.
And btw, there's just 4 thrown weapons with a range higher than 20 ft (boomerang, chakri, harpoon, and javelin), so in most cases you are not only required to invest into feats, runes, and a secondary stat for a backup weapon, but you are likely also taking a range increment penalty on top of that. At that point I feel you are literally wasting actions trying to hit the target, assuming the GM didn't notice the issue a mile away and made the flying enemies not fly higher than 10 ft and introduced a ruling for the PCs to be able to jump and Strike, and again, assuming these PCs have Quick Jump and/or Powerful Leap to even jump that high (yay, situational taxes!)
It's a total nonfactor in the midlevels where flight becomes available and if the whole party failed to have a plan for flying enemies, or worse, knew it was an issue and did nothing, then it's not bad gm-ing to exploit that to force them into being prepared for it afterwards.
Saying "It's a total nonfactor in the midlevels where flight becomes available" isn't as good of an answer as you think it is. PF2e is system that was supposedly made to make every class and party composition work, and assuming every party is going to have a full caster that is going to spend a sizeable amount of spell slots in the PCs to fly or that the party is going to have enough GP to buy some fly wands is a really big "if" that I would honestly prefer the system didn't have to assume.
If anything, the fact that you are suggesting these solutions and assume these are basic knowledge ("if the whole party failed to have a plan for flying enemies, or worse, knew it was an issue and did nothing") shows that everybody knows this is a failure of the system, forcing them to either have a caster or hope to have enough GP to buy wands. Wouldn't it be much easier if, rather than "assume" stuff and force certain party compositions, to just patch the core of the problem instead?
There's nothing super wrong about forcing melee to spend a combat at -x for using a bow at +0 dex instead of whatever their str bonus is. Particularly in the earliest levels where casters likely still have magic weapon on their bar so the two weapons thing isn't even a factor.
It's a total nonfactor in the midlevels where flight becomes available and if the whole party failed to have a plan for flying enemies, or worse, knew it was an issue and did nothing, then it's not bad gm-ing to exploit that to force them into being prepared for it afterwards.
Absolutely.
Also STR martials are already main characters so can sometimes be not at their peak, especially if unprepared. -4 is like a second attack, they are perfectly fine with their proficiences, secondary weapons (yes, they must have them) and probably even working damage bonuses for some classes.
Except the penalty is likely going to be much higher than -4.
Assuming an average 10th level (its uncommon to be facing flying enemies earlier than this I feel) Str medium armor martial character with +5 Str and +1 Dex, your penalty is going to be at least -6, assuming the target is within your second range increment and not further away, and again, still not taking into account the fundamental runes needed to keep this backup thrown weapon viable, and the returning rune and Quick Draw feat for this playstyle to work at all.
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Except the penalty is likely going to be much higher than -4.
Assuming an average 10th level (its uncommon to be facing flying enemies earlier than this I feel) Str medium armor martial character with +5 Str and +1 Dex, your penalty is going to be at least -6, assuming the target is within your second range increment and not further away, and again, still not taking into account the fundamental runes needed to keep this backup thrown weapon viable, and the returning rune and Quick Draw feat for this playstyle to work at all.
At 10th level the penalty is 0 because you have had flight access since at least 7th level(fly/air walk from a melee magus or summoner), and definitely at 9th (aeromancer at human 9, flight tattoo, etc) and the extending rune (also 9) if you absolutely refuse to interact with flight.
I'm more than willing to call player skill issue on this one. If not that, then a group of players gambling on their gm being enough of a pushover not to exploit obvious flaws in their strategy.
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This is exactly what I described earlier as "limits the encounter design by not allowing GMs to make encounters with flying enemies because they can potentially alienate most members in the party". Why would a flying enemy remain not further than 20 ft (the range of all the weapons you describe here) when they likely could have moved further away to avoid being tripped at range? Out of 1096 creatures that have a flying speed, only 62 have a flying speed lower than 20 ft (thanks AoN). This means that your "Str option for short ranged combat" only affect between 5-6% of flying enemies.
A shocking number of encounters in AP's are in fairly enclosed areas from my experience. Add to that that there's a lot of flying options as you level and you can extend that 20' range with a few feats [Rogue and Ranger can increase range increment]. If all that fails, Ready can be used if the flyers are using melee. I've found that a Bola came in handy chasing those flyers with a speed faster than you but within 20' speed of yourself.
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Except the penalty is likely going to be much higher than -4.
Assuming an average 10th level (its uncommon to be facing flying enemies earlier than this I feel) Str medium armor martial character with +5 Str and +1 Dex, your penalty is going to be at least -6, assuming the target is within your second range increment and not further away, and again, still not taking into account the fundamental runes needed to keep this backup thrown weapon viable, and the returning rune and Quick Draw feat for this playstyle to work at all.
At 10th level the penalty is 0 because you have had flight access since at least 7th level(fly/air walk from a melee magus or summoner), and definitely at 9th (aeromancer at human 9, flight tattoo, etc) and the extending rune (also 9) if you absolutely refuse to interact with flight.
I'm more than willing to call player skill issue on this one. If not that, then a group of players gambling on their gm being enough of a pushover not to exploit obvious flaws in their strategy.
I already answered this earlier. "Assuming" people are going to have X thing is bad design. More so for something situational like this.
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This is exactly what I described earlier as "limits the encounter design by not allowing GMs to make encounters with flying enemies because they can potentially alienate most members in the party". Why would a flying enemy remain not further than 20 ft (the range of all the weapons you describe here) when they likely could have moved further away to avoid being tripped at range? Out of 1096 creatures that have a flying speed, only 62 have a flying speed lower than 20 ft (thanks AoN). This means that your "Str option for short ranged combat" only affect between 5-6% of flying enemies.A shocking number of encounters in AP's are in fairly enclosed areas from my experience. Add to that that there's a lot of flying options as you level and you can extend that 20' range with a few feats [Rogue and Ranger can increase range increment]. If all that fails, Ready can be used if the flyers are using melee. I've found that a Bola came in handy chasing those flyers with a speed faster than you but within 20' speed of yourself.
AP map design is another issue that needs its own solution.
The Ready action also has its problems and it works if, like you said, the flying enemies need to be in melee.
These rogue and ranger feats still do not fix the issue of making a Str character needing to invest into Dex for a backup weapon.
And because I know people are going to say it, I also think that Dex melee characters having to invest into Str to not roll flat dice for damage is a problem as well, but I feel a +4 Dex/+0 Str character having a +0 damage modifier is better than having a -6 penalty to attack and need a returning rune and Quick Draw, personally.
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At the end of the day, this is an issue that exists because attribute exists, but I think talking about attributes here would be a bit off-topic.
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These rogue and ranger feats still do not fix the issue of making a Str character needing to invest into Dex for a backup weapon.
It helps with the issue you had with the 20' range of the ranged trip weapons: you can get it up to 60' if you invest enough.
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Dual thrower is a pretty good feat. It lets you treat thrown and 1 handed ranged weapons as melee weapons for purposes of two-weapon warrior feats.
Returning is a level 3 rune. Ricocheting Stance is a level 6 fighter feat.
Now you can use a ton of fighter feats with two thrown weapons all day long.
Plenty of feats work just fine with thrown weapons. The below feats are fighter feats that work with Thrown weapons. This doesn't include the feats that are explicitly for thrown (i.e. ricocheting stance).
Point Blank Stance
Exacting Strike
Assisting Shot
Advantageous Assault
Mobile Shot Stance
Felling Strike
Incredible Aim
Agile Grace
Debilitating Shot
Savage Critical.That's 10 feats. Is throwing the best option in the game? No. Is it perfectly viable? Yes.
Just to add for all classes :
Thrower's Bandolier is a level 3 item.
Returning throw is a level 9 Dwarf feat.
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Just to add for all classes :
Thrower's Bandolier is a level 3 item.
Returning throw is a level 9 Dwarf feat.
Hunt Prey is even better on a Thrower. You will rarely need to worry about attacking into your second range increment with a shortbow and almost never with a longbow. But getting no range penalty up to 40 feet instead of 20 is much more likely.
One thing I’ve never really understood is why thrown weapons use Dexterity for accuracy instead of Strength. It would make more sense if thrown weapons were tied to Strength by default, while finesse thrown weapons like daggers could use either Strength or Dexterity.Strangely, Dungeons and Dragons does exactly this, and it works.
Exactly. This is a rule that already exists in 5e and nobody cares about it because nobody cares about thrown weapons. In fact, Dex still is a god stat in 5e even with Str thrown weapons being a thing.
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Exactly. This is a rule that already exists in 5e and nobody cares about it because nobody cares about thrown weapons. In fact, Dex still is a god stat in 5e even with Str thrown weapons being a thing.One thing I’ve never really understood is why thrown weapons use Dexterity for accuracy instead of Strength. It would make more sense if thrown weapons were tied to Strength by default, while finesse thrown weapons like daggers could use either Strength or Dexterity.Strangely, Dungeons and Dragons does exactly this, and it works.
Isn't 5e a totally different system ?
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Isn't 5e a totally different system ?Exactly. This is a rule that already exists in 5e and nobody cares about it because nobody cares about thrown weapons. In fact, Dex still is a god stat in 5e even with Str thrown weapons being a thing.One thing I’ve never really understood is why thrown weapons use Dexterity for accuracy instead of Strength. It would make more sense if thrown weapons were tied to Strength by default, while finesse thrown weapons like daggers could use either Strength or Dexterity.Strangely, Dungeons and Dragons does exactly this, and it works.
Making it seem like 5e and PF2e don't share a similar DNA is a poor attempt of a strawman I think.
All the people here against the idea of Str thrown weapons either think it would contribute to "Str / Dex supremacy" and that the system knows and "assumes" of the problems I presented and that's why X or Y options exists and certain party compositions are needed, but when there's a perfect example of a similar system with Str thrown weapons that shows these don't move the "stat supremacy" balance towards Str at all are perfect example that they probably wouldn't do it here.
And besides, I feel like I already mentioned all the points that show that Str thrown weapons wouldn't break the balance of PF2e multiple times in this thread before I ever mentioned 5e having a similar rule here. I think trying to ignore that its also a poor attempt of a strawman argument personally.
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Isn't 5e a totally different system ?Exactly. This is a rule that already exists in 5e and nobody cares about it because nobody cares about thrown weapons. In fact, Dex still is a god stat in 5e even with Str thrown weapons being a thing.One thing I’ve never really understood is why thrown weapons use Dexterity for accuracy instead of Strength. It would make more sense if thrown weapons were tied to Strength by default, while finesse thrown weapons like daggers could use either Strength or Dexterity.Strangely, Dungeons and Dragons does exactly this, and it works.Making it seem like 5e and PF2e don't share a similar DNA is a poor attempt of a strawman I think.
All the people here against the idea of Str thrown weapons either think it would contribute to "Str / Dex supremacy" and that the system knows and "assumes" of the problems I presented and that's why X or Y options exists and certain party compositions are needed, but when there's a perfect example of a similar system with Str thrown weapons that shows these don't move the "stat supremacy" balance towards Str at all are perfect example that they probably wouldn't do it here.
And besides, I feel like I already mentioned all the points that show that Str thrown weapons wouldn't break the balance of PF2e multiple times in this thread before I ever mentioned 5e having a similar rule here. I think trying to ignore that its also a poor attempt of a strawman argument personally.
Sorry about that.
I do not know 5e, so I am unable to compute the differences between both systems in assessing if the impact in PF2 would be similar.
From what I read on these boards, 5e is rather different from PF2 though, so I am not sure comparison is reason for this point.
For example, I would not call DEX a god stat in PF2.
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For example, I would not call DEX a god stat in PF2.
Dex covers 2 saves [AC and Reflex], several skills, To Hits with ranged and Finesse attacks and a common Initiative roll [stealth]; just by sheer volume, Dex covers more ground that other stats. I'd say it's the easiest stat to max out and build around.
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For example, I would not call DEX a god stat in PF2.Dex covers 2 saves [AC and Reflex], several skills, To Hits with ranged and Finesse attacks and a common Initiative roll [stealth]; just by sheer volume, Dex covers more ground that other stats. I'd say it's the easiest stat to max out and build around.
There are other key stats though.
STR covers all melee to hits, including high damage weapons, AC and REF saves through Heavy Armor with Bulwark, damage on all melee weapons and several ranged ones, as well as the king in-combat skill of Athletics. Also you can carry more.
Listing all this, I realize how much they made STR and DEX concurrent stats to enable builds based on either one.
WIS covers Initiative, Perception/ Sense Motive, Will save, several skills including creature-RK ones, and is the casting stat for several classes.
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I don't think Dex is a god stat in PF2e either. It is in D&D 5e because it does everything Strength does and much more, but in PF2e its fine. Yeah, it applies to a bunch of statistics like those graystone mentions, but its really easy to find ways to circumvent it.
Str characters don't really need more than a +1 Dex to max out their AC, and if they have access to heavy armor, they don't even need that. Heavy armor users also cover Reflex saves through the bulwark trait as well, but even if you are limited to medium armor, I never felt that hampered by having a lower Reflex save personally. Most effects that target Reflex do damage and that's it, and while survivability is ofc important, effects that target Fortitude and Will can deactivate some characters entirely.
Stealth is one of the better skills but Acrobatics and Thievery leave a lot to be desired. Unlike Athletics which open a ton of possiblities for Strength characters, Acrobatics is highly situational unless you are someone that can use its action for something else, like rogues or swashbucklers leaving targets off-guard with Tumble Through. Thievery is just bad though. All the APs I played always allow for other checks to be made when lock or trap needs to be disabled, usually Athletics checks.
And as I said earlier, a Dex character with a finesse weapon and no Str whatsoever is rolling flat dice for damage. Not like I would make Dex to damage the solution to this because Dex characters being slightly weaker than Str characters makes sense since Dex has more utility uses than Str, but its quite the norm for Dex characters in PF2e to have a +4 Dex / +3 Str stat array, and I feel that's nearly as bad as everything I said about Str characters and thrown weapons in this thread.
A Str character can, for the most part, ignore Dex exists. A Dex character can't do that.
And ironically, this allows Str characters to focus on their mental attributes and related skills more, which used to be a thing for Dex characters in earlier editions.
A Str character can, for the most part, ignore Dex exists. A Dex character can't do that.
Setting aside thrown weapons which are rare anyway as PF2 doesn't like them, missile weapons mostly don't care about Strength (one or two for the propulsive trait is not really that much) and thief racket. So there are some dex characters that can ignore strength.
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Exactly. This is a rule that already exists in 5e and nobody cares about it because nobody cares about thrown weapons. In fact, Dex still is a god stat in 5e even with Str thrown weapons being a thing.One thing I’ve never really understood is why thrown weapons use Dexterity for accuracy instead of Strength. It would make more sense if thrown weapons were tied to Strength by default, while finesse thrown weapons like daggers could use either Strength or Dexterity.Strangely, Dungeons and Dragons does exactly this, and it works.
I personally like the idea of giving the thrown trait the option to use strength to attack, like finesse but reversed.
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I personally like the idea of giving the thrown trait the option to use strength to attack, like finesse but reversed.Exactly. This is a rule that already exists in 5e and nobody cares about it because nobody cares about thrown weapons. In fact, Dex still is a god stat in 5e even with Str thrown weapons being a thing.One thing I’ve never really understood is why thrown weapons use Dexterity for accuracy instead of Strength. It would make more sense if thrown weapons were tied to Strength by default, while finesse thrown weapons like daggers could use either Strength or Dexterity.Strangely, Dungeons and Dragons does exactly this, and it works.
This will definitely hurt the Animal Barbarian's feelings even more.
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What I always found weird in Pathfinder 2e specifically when it comes to Thrown weapons is that they have printed the brutal trait specifically for the purpose of using STR to hit with ranged when it makes sense for a monster, but have never actually allowed PCs to get access to it even when it would make perfect sense for them, like making it part of Raging Thrower, or maybe making it a Stance feat.
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What I always found weird in Pathfinder 2e specifically when it comes to Thrown weapons is that they have printed the brutal trait specifically for the purpose of using STR to hit with ranged when it makes sense for a monster, but have never actually allowed PCs to get access to it even when it would make perfect sense for them, like making it part of Raging Thrower, or maybe making it a Stance feat.
Raging thrower granting Brutal, dont make me drool. It's so weird it exists and was never utilized. There is so much opportunity there for class and species feats, runes, and other items.