Overlap with Envoy

[siegfriedliner]

I find it a little weird that Starfinder 2e has two martial charisma based buffers right out the gate and I don't think Pathfinder 2e has 1. This is not a complaint just a observation on the different direction of classes in starfinder to pathfinder,

Obviously the Envoy and Luminary are both "stars" if I wanted to play a vid-game influencer either of them would work thematically. If I wanted to play a non-magical buffer I could play either of them, if wanted to play a face I could play either of them.

So what sets them apart - thematically little it seems, mechanically we have the lead by example and the spotlight mechancs. Both of them are buffs but one is active and the other is more passive.

I was wondering what sort of character concepts work for one but not the other ? So your charismatic captain figure could be either but what could be only an envoy or only a Luminary and why would you pick one over the other ?

[Xenocrat]

There is zero non-magical buffing in the Luminary.

[siegfriedliner]

Fair I meant non-spell caster/ slot but I take your point.

[Justnobodyfqwl]

The difference to me is mostly mechanical - an Envoy is a Martial Skill Monkey, while the Luminary is a Martial Focus Point Caster. Envoys have more damage, more skill actions, more skill feats, and a lot of buffs. Luminaries have more spells, more tricks and illusions, more "every ten minutes" abilities, and a lot of Debuffs and Buffs mixed together.

I think the Luminary playtest could definitely differentiate the two classes a little more by de-emphasizing the martial side of the Luminary and emphasizing the Caster side. Spells are obviously the big difference between the classes- but the Luminary as it exists now has very few spells.

I think an easy way to differentiate between the two classes would be to lean into the razzle dazzle illusionist side of the class. Thematically and flavorfully, I think that's a side of Luminary magic that Envoys don't overlap with at all.

[Don Hastily]

siegfriedliner wrote:

I find it a little weird that Starfinder 2e has two martial charisma based buffers right out the gate and I don't think Pathfinder 2e has 1. This is not a complaint just a observation on the different direction of classes in starfinder to pathfinder,

Obviously the Envoy and Luminary are both "stars" if I wanted to play a vid-game influencer either of them would work thematically. If I wanted to play a non-magical buffer I could play either of them, if wanted to play a face I could play either of them.

So what sets them apart - thematically little it seems, mechanically we have the lead by example and the spotlight mechancs. Both of them are buffs but one is active and the other is more passive.

I was wondering what sort of character concepts work for one but not the other ? So your charismatic captain figure could be either but what could be only an envoy or only a Luminary and why would you pick one over the other ?

Princess Leia is an Envoy but not a Luminary.

(I also think a charismatic captain figure wouldn’t work well as a Luminary)

[Justnobodyfqwl]

I would also say that thematically, Envoys are more "plucky every-man" class. You are a normal person who has feats like "insult person" and "say excuse me as you squeeze past someone" at low levels. You give inspiring speeches and pep talks and battlefield commands. Very much for Han Solo and Peter Quill types.

The Luminary is more explicitly in the Bard space of "performing and visual arts class". But more broadly, it's for performers, creatives, storytellers, public figures, etc. You have an extremely elaborate bag of tricks using magic and technology to achieve your specific creative vision. Your abilities are all heavily encouraged to be specifically flavored around your specialty. You use tricks to even kind of blur the line between fiction and reality, as you do smash cut scene transitions and summon fake special guest star celebrities.

I think that some Luminaries could have been Envoys, but a lot of Envoys can not be Luminaries. But honestly, again, it's mostly a mechanical difference: the developers probably started with the idea of "pop star: the class" and then decided that would be an occult support caster. Since Witchwarpers are debuff casters and Mystics are buffing casters, Luminaries do a little bit of both. Since Envoys are plucky every-men, the Luminary does the opposite and goes over the top performative. Bam, now you have the outline of a class with a mechanical and thematic gimmick built on understood tropes!

[waltero]

Playtested at level 3 last night with an Envoy in the party. Was outperformed in all aspects by the Envoy: combat, buffing and healing.

Maybe this should be a caster class? This would separate it a bit from the Envoy.

[Dracomicron]

waltero wrote:

Playtested at level 3 last night with an Envoy in the party. Was outperformed in all aspects by the Envoy: combat, buffing and healing.

Maybe this should be a caster class? This would separate it a bit from the Envoy.

It technically is a caster class, with the focus spells. Just not a very good one.

But I take your meaning. There is room for a full Charisma caster right now, as Witchwarper is Int/Cha and defaults to Int as a an archetype.

[Driftbourne]

Considering that the Liuminary likely won't come out until 2027, its main competition is not the Envoy or Bard, it's the Neon Odyssey Icon

[Don Hastily]

Driftbourne wrote:

Considering that the Liuminary likely won't come out until 2027, its main competition is not the Envoy or Bard, it's the Neon Odyssey Icon

Yeah, but the envoy and bard aren’t in competition, they are other classes that Paizo publishes that need to work synergistically with the Luminary.

[Driftbourne]

Don Hastily wrote:

Driftbourne wrote:

Considering that the Liuminary likely won't come out until 2027, its main competition is not the Envoy or Bard, it's the Neon Odyssey Icon

Yeah, but the envoy and bard aren’t in competition, they are other classes that Paizo publishes that need to work synergistically with the Luminary.

The Bard inspires the party (Courageous Anthem)

The Rhythm Mystic inspires the party (Anthem)
The Envoy commands the party (Get'Em!)
The Luminay highlights someone (Spotlight)

The main issue is bonuses of the same type not stacking, but you have the same problems if you have 2 of the same class listed above in the same party.

[Xenocrat]

Until level 8 and doing ersatz get em the luminary doesn’t overlap at all with the envoy when comparing their every round resourceless combat loops.

I guess some of the stagecraft spells can give status bonuses to hit, but they also do more or do it better than get em. If nothing else they’re more action efficient once they’re up.

It’s surprising no one has said much about the comparison of the luminary to the much lamented envoy playtest penalty to reflex saves from get em. It’s back (albeit status and not circ), now with Will and Fort options!

[Justnobodyfqwl]

Xenocrat wrote:

Until level 8 and doing ersatz get em the luminary doesn’t overlap at all with the envoy when comparing their every round resourceless combat loops.

I guess some of the stagecraft spells can give status bonuses to hit, but they also do more or do it better than get em. If nothing else they’re more action efficient once they’re up.

It’s surprising no one has said much about the comparison of the luminary to the much lamented envoy playtest penalty to reflex saves from get em. It’s back (albeit status and not circ), now with Will and Fort options!

That actually is where my mind went too- I liked the debuffs of the playtest Envoy, so seeing them again was nice.

[Perpdepog]

Justnobodyfqwl wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Until level 8 and doing ersatz get em the luminary doesn’t overlap at all with the envoy when comparing their every round resourceless combat loops.

I guess some of the stagecraft spells can give status bonuses to hit, but they also do more or do it better than get em. If nothing else they’re more action efficient once they’re up.

It’s surprising no one has said much about the comparison of the luminary to the much lamented envoy playtest penalty to reflex saves from get em. It’s back (albeit status and not circ), now with Will and Fort options!

That actually is where my mind went too- I liked the debuffs of the playtest Envoy, so seeing them again was nice.

Same. It's also why the luminary feels a lot like the 2e engine's take on the mesmerist from 1e, swapping out the stare options for the luminary's spotlights.

[NoxiousMiasma]

Having now run a playtest with an envoy and luminary in the same party, they don't particularly feel like they're overlapping much, if at all.

Like, just pick roles that don't give the same bonuses as the envoy, and maybe spend a little more time giving enemies roles, and the skill monkey and buff/debuff focus caster can very much feel different and work well together without overlapping.

[BotBrain]

Driftbourne wrote:

Considering that the Liuminary likely won't come out until 2027, its main competition is not the Envoy or Bard, it's the Neon Odyssey Icon

So, bard.

[Driftbourne]

BotBrain wrote:

Driftbourne wrote:

Considering that the Liuminary likely won't come out until 2027, its main competition is not the Envoy or Bard, it's the Neon Odyssey Icon

So, bard.

I was thinking of the 46,186 backers on Kickstarter that raised over $15.2 million dollars.

I don't feel that Icon is just the Bard in a Sci-fantasy game. It's like being the bard for Starfinder if the Star Stone were in Songbird Station instead of Absalom Station.

Music-inspired galaxy known as Stardust Rhapsody
The Magic of Music: The entire system is woven together by musical themes. The currency is called "Notes," the universe’s life force is "The Harmony," and the evil, corrupted realm is known as "The Cacophony."
2 real songs with music videos for the game.
Icon has the subclasses of Holostar, remix, Headbanger, and Soul Jammer.

This is the closest Sci-fantasy game I've seen to Starfinder in flavor. I'd love to see a crossover adventure that is a battle of the bans between systems. The Songbird Station version of Abomination Vaults, wiht 5 levels of music competitions.

[Driftbourne]

The kickstater is over, ending with 49,115 backers pledging $16,138,971
I normally don't follow Kickstarter news, so I'm only now realizing this is the new record for TTRPG kickstarters.