You get a free archetype. Here is what I’m thinking. Dwarf or Conrasu as cha is useless. Go wizard with staff of nexus. Buy wands so I can cast the other spells I know but choose not to prepare. I only ever need Intelligence at 14 to do psychic dedication for more force barrages. The other stat boosts will increase dex, con wis and strength to survive hits and saving throws once I have 14 intelligence. Wizard feats are useless for an all force barrage character so sacrifice them for extra ranger dedication feats and psychic feats, as foundry lets you do it. As many ranger dedication feats as possible so I benefit from +3 to Hp per feat. I only need 5 psychic feats for all the extra spell slots, master psychic spellcasting plus the one that gives you 2 extra for other than my first slot. Thoughts or other ideas to max out the all force barrages character.
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I think this is going to have a hard time holding up well, but we can definitely improve on it at least a little bit. I think a class that can add some damage to each casting, like sorcerer with their Sorcerous Potency feature, will do a bit better than wizard.
Carrying around a sack of Dargon Breath Scale catalysts could let you tag the occasional damage type weakness (or shut off regeneration or the like, depending what you fight).
Witch might be a better archetype than psychic, if you're not using any other spells, since you could also grab the Ceremonial Knife feat, and make yourself an extra daily Force Barrage wand that is so cheap you don't worry about Overcharging it. That's more extra Force Barrages than psychic archetype will give you.
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Also, Psychic archetype doesn't have a spellcasting breadth feat, so that part of the plan is a bit off.
Warpriest of nethys, multiclass wizard. When your poor damage output inevitably gets you beat up, you can survive it, and when you run out of spells at least you can bonk with your staff.
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Use imperial sorc, make force barrage signature and then pick up all the generically good spells for if you get bored or are forced out of being the force missile guy. I'd say use bard or something but iirc spore war has mental immunity all over the place which weakens the occult list.
Buy and maintain multiple wands of shardstorm instead of trying to buy wands/scrolls of actually good spells.
Then just spend your feats and free archetype slots on generic good stuff. One for all, bard cantrips, etc.
Sample:
Ancestry: Halfling (aiuvarin)
Class: sorc (Imperial)
Background: Pilgrim
-1 str, +3 dex, +1 con, +0 int, +2 wis, +4 cha
Level 01: Halfling luck
Level 02: anoint ally, bard dedication
Level 03: tough, fleet or Ancestral Paragon
Level 04: arcane evolution, bard casting
Level 05: cultural adaptability (human), natural ambition (reach spell), dex,con,wis,cha
Level 06: muse whispers (lingering composition), swashbuckler dedication
Level 07: tough, fleet or Ancestral Paragon
Level 08: anthemic performance, flair (one for all)
Level 09: multitalented (witch [aiuvarin bypasses int requirement])
Level 10: basic witchcraft (cauldron), basic witch casting, dex,con,wis,cha
Level 11: tough, fleet or Ancestral Paragon
Begin the campaign with a party buff, strong reaction, 1/day print a haste potion for your melee. Your base slots should suffice for force barrage as long as you switch to lower level slots for cleanup or something.
Level 12: expert bard casting, advanced witchcraft (knife)
Level 13: shared luck
Level 14: energy fusion, gunslinger archetype
Level 15: canny acumen (fort), dex,con,wis,cha
Level 16: evasiveness, eagle eye
Level 17: incredible luck
Level 18: master bard, expert witch
Level 19: incredible initiative
Level 20: bloodline perfection, advanced witchcraft (double double), str,int,wis,cha
End on master fort, reflex, will and perception. Spend your archetype slots to add more bonus damage to your spells via energy fusion. If you use spirit damage spells, you can proc weakness if any of your allies use shining symbols. As you level you print more haste potions for your martials to use with potion patches.
If you don't care about perception, just replace gunslinger with more casting
I think this is going to have a hard time holding up well, but we can definitely improve on it at least a little bit. I think a class that can add some damage to each casting, like sorcerer with their Sorcerous Potency feature, will do a bit better than wizard.
Carrying around a sack of Dargon Breath Scale catalysts could let you tag the occasional damage type weakness (or shut off regeneration or the like, depending what you fight).
Witch might be a better archetype than psychic, if you're not using any other spells, since you could also grab the Ceremonial Knife feat, and make yourself an extra daily Force Barrage wand that is so cheap you don't worry about Overcharging it. That's more extra Force Barrages than psychic archetype will give you.
These are the kind of replies I’m hoping for. The only concern I have with witch is that an enemy kills my familiar and I’m out spell slots during the combat. Tree Razor has high ac for instance and I need enough force barrages to make up for it. Familiar dying on round 1 or 2 can be bad. Gesalt here has very specific builds for suggestions so I also like his post.
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These are the kind of replies I’m hoping for. The only concern I have with witch is that an enemy kills my familiar and I’m out spell slots during the combat. Tree Razor has high ac for instance and I need enough force barrages to make up for it. Familiar dying on round 1 or 2 can be bad. Gesalt here has very specific builds for suggestions so I also like his post.I think this is going to have a hard time holding up well, but we can definitely improve on it at least a little bit. I think a class that can add some damage to each casting, like sorcerer with their Sorcerous Potency feature, will do a bit better than wizard.
Carrying around a sack of Dargon Breath Scale catalysts could let you tag the occasional damage type weakness (or shut off regeneration or the like, depending what you fight).
Witch might be a better archetype than psychic, if you're not using any other spells, since you could also grab the Ceremonial Knife feat, and make yourself an extra daily Force Barrage wand that is so cheap you don't worry about Overcharging it. That's more extra Force Barrages than psychic archetype will give you.
An enemy killing your familiar doesn't do anything to your spell slots. And, if you're worried about preparing tomorrow, there are always things like turning your familiar into a tattoo.
Adding on what Gesalt has said:
Imperial Sorcerer has Force Barrage as bloodline spell, so you can also try to grab another bloodmagic effect, e.g. Explosion of Power – or Crossblooded Evolution for Psychopomp bloodline if your GM lets you add bloodmagic damage to Force Barrage.
Try to get the party Cleric to always cast Coiling Dance so your Force Barrage triggers the Holy weakness of all the demons. If you do SF2e content, the Knight of Golarion archetype can do that natively for you.
A party of 4 Imp Sorcs + 1 Cleric of Nethys can melt Treerazer in 1-2 rounds.
Warpriest of nethys, multiclass wizard. When your poor damage output inevitably gets you beat up, you can survive it, and when you run out of spells at least you can bonk with your staff.
This. Minus the staff bonking, instead casting Heal from your font. The hit points, AC, & Shield Block make you durable for those many times you're doing little...because you're built around a spell that's made for killing hard-shell bosses, not meat-sack peons. It's also a spell that begs for 3 actions, tying you up when pressed. You'll want to contribute then too.
Which is to say if you go "Pure Force Barrage!", you'll be unhelpful and a lot of your low-level spell slots will waste actions. Thus I'd recommend Bard MCD. Pour out the Force Barrages vs. the hard-shell opposition while using a Composition, move to flank, Raise Shield, maybe Demoralize, and definitely Heal during other combats. Low-level Soothe is also good for the Will save bonus. Uplifting Overture will help your PC contribute vs. all skill-based obstacles. You'll also qualify for Sorcerer to get the damage bonus (maybe via 9th level & 10th level feats), maybe even Champion simply for the Reaction. Use your even-level Rank Cleric slots for support, Reactions, spare Heals, and buffs, etc. (Assuming you have modest Wisdom or a hard self-ban on using non-Force Barrage attacks.)
A PC w/ buffing Compositions, aid for all skills, and a Healing Font? Every party will appreciate that. Then when you face a high-AC BBEG, a vicious Swarm, or Incorporeal creatures and your PC does about half the damage because their Force Barrages bypass those high defenses & Resistances, they'll love you. That's where I see you getting the most mileage out of a Force Barrage focus. And as tempting as it is to get Wizard for the mini-Force Barrage Focus spell, it kinda doesn't pay off. Do get some Focus spell(s), but that one's kinda for spare actions at best.
Are you specifically wanting to play a Force Barrage caster, or are you looking to play a caster that will be effective in Spore War against targets like Treerazer?
Because if it's the latter, the specific nature of this campaign opens up some options that are normally a lot more niche. But if you're specifically excited for Force Barrage, then none of that matters. :)
Are you specifically wanting to play a Force Barrage caster, or are you looking to play a caster that will be effective in Spore War against targets like Treerazer?
Because if it's the latter, the specific nature of this campaign opens up some options that are normally a lot more niche. But if you're specifically excited for Force Barrage, then none of that matters. :)
yes more down the lines of going up against enemies like him. Deal maximum amount of damage with force barrages or have many force barrages while tanking damage and will saves. Looking at it, it seems sorcerer is better than a focused wizard, but also if force barrage is my only attack spell and I only ever put in utility spells, water walk and walls don’t require cha. It seems I can be a dwarf and be at 10 cha during the entire game while putting points into wis, dex, con and str for escapes. When I ask google, it suggests psychic but I can only get that extra damage every 3rd turn.
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Okay. So feel free to ignore all of this if it doesn't fit your concept. :)
Spore War has a very high concentration of Unholy tagged enemies. That means Moonlight Ray and Holy Cascade are effective MUCH more frequently than in a typical AP. Against normal enemies these are both pretty meh spells, but they scale up dramatically on Unholy targets.
So another way to go about this is to go Oracle. Buy a Faith Tattoo so you can Sanctify Holy and a bunch of Divine spells now become Holy tagged and hit demons extra hard. Take Sorcerer dedication for Ancestral Memories to lower enemy AC (or give yourself an attack bonus for Moonlight Ray if you're not using Sure Strike) and blow stuff up.
If you take a mystery like Tempest you can also have spells like Chain Lightning for the non Unholy stuff, or Cosmos for the "I don't want to care about my Curse whatsoever" ease of play. Pick up a nice feat like Foretell Harm for extra free damage, or Whispers of Weakness for can't fail enemy info, or Nudge the Scales for 1 action healing.
Against Treerazor? Ancestral Memories/Holy Cascade. You can do it from 60' away (or 500' away if you dont Ancestral Memories, but the save penalty really helps), it's an AoE if he has any minions, it's Holy damage so it both tags his weakness and disables his regeneration, and the damage will be comparable to Force Barrage at a similar rank if he succeeds on the save. If he fails the save, you are hitting him REAL hard. Then you Foretell Harm and hit him again as a free action for a second weakness proc.
Against packs of demons? Holy Cascade + Foretell Harm or Divine Decree + Foretell Harm. Banish can flat out remove an enemy and end a fight at rank 9. Single target fight? Moonlight Ray is somewhat hard to land because Spell Attack rolls are weak until very high level (someone in the party landing Prone will help a lot, as do Ancestral Memories or Sure Strike), but it hits like an absolute truck against Unholy targets and procs their weakness (which demons generally have).
You can actually even have Force Barrage if you take it via Mysterious Repertoire (and you can make it a signature spell). And if you want it you can also have some healing (either via Heal or Moment of Renewal).
The blasting potential is actually pretty good here because this campaign specifically enables some strong spells that don't normally work so reliably. Something to consider. :) I'm playing in it now and I'm not set up for full damage (I brought over a character from Kingmaker) but it's super effective in this AP all the same.
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yes more down the lines of going up against enemies like him. Deal maximum amount of damage with force barrages or have many force barrages while tanking damage and will saves.
Be aware that such a "one trick pony"-build will feel incredibly weak during the entire campaign.
Spore War starts at level 11, when you have 6th-rank spell-slots, while Force Barrage only ever heightens on odd spell-ranks. And even if you use your highest odd rank, 5th going into this campaign, with all 3 of your action, you will only shoot a total of 9 force shards, each dealing ~3.5 dmg [not including damage bonuses], for a total of ~31.5 dmg against a single target. Your Fighter, Rogue, … will easily do that with their first Strike, including ranged Fighters, … and not including crits.
Especially considering since this just appeared on the Pf2e-Subreddit yesterday, where a martial landed a big hit for 538 points of damage; for comparison, Treerazer has between 500 and 600 hit points.
You will also waste half your spell-slots for no additional effect, since your even-ranked slots do not improve your Force Barrage spells. So if you really want to go down that route, try asking your GM for a bit of leniency to give you some leeway/improvements on your Force Barrages.
If he is willing to do so, then I suggest one other build to consider:
A Lore Oracle of Nethys.
Oracles use the divine spell-list, but your Divine Access class feature at level 11 lets you pick one deity's spells (if that deity has one of your accessible domains). Lore Oracles have the Magic domain and Nethys obviously has that one, and he has Force Barrage as one of the spells you can then add to your list & repertoire, so you can start the campaign with Force Barrage without investing anything really.
Oracles have the same amount of spell-slots as Sorcerers and you can pick up the Dangerous Sorcery feat via the Sorcerer archetype for the same bonus damage as Sorcerers. Foretell Harm then adds a bit more damage as well.
Then grab the Domain Fluency oracle feat for the Magic domain (grab Domain Acumen during character creation at level 2 or so) to get the Mystic Beacon focus spell – and here ask your GM to have it apply to Force Barrage, allowing you to use your even-ranked spell-slots to cast with +1 spell-rank, e.g. turning your 6th-rank slots into 7th-rank slots; it costs an action and Force Barrage increases its damage by firing more shards, so I think RAI this is fine to apply.
Finally, ask your GM to let you apply the effects of the 2nd-rank spell Coiling Dance to your own spells as well, not just those of your allies. You're basically forced to jump through hoops to get Holy on Force Barrage (your deity's granted spell), while martials just add a Holy rune to their weapon or grab the overpowered Exemplar archetype to get holy on all their Strikes (and also getting Cold Iron weapons to always trigger TWO weaknesses with no real investment at all). But 50%+ of your enemies have a weakness to holy in this campaign, and getting that to trigger would be a massive damage boost to your Force Barrages. [Personally I think it should be easier to get sanctification on divine spellcasters and the bonus spells directly granted by a deity through Divine Access should also have the sanctified trait, but you gotta jump through hoops here; a Faith Tattoo can give you holy sanctification if you care about it.]
You can also focus on a lot of buff spells from the divine list, so you don't really need Charisma, if you don't want to go with save DC or spell-attack spells. A high Intelligence and Wisdom would be awesome for Recall Knowledge checks (Additional Lore for Demons & Tanglebriar) – you could even grab Domain Acumen for the Knowledge domain as well to absolutely smash those.
@theaitetis good point but my other spells will be buff and utility spells, but absolutely no spells that would work off of cha or be boosted by cha in any way making the stat useless in combat. I can be helpful indirectly, let’s say a big bad is coming. Okay I cast blur on the fighter, or level 4 invisibility. Or I find out the enemy does a little bit of fire damage with each hit, the fighter gets that spell that increases elemental resistance on him. Sure, I might do a less damage than a fighter, but keeping a fighter alive because the big bad misses every other hit will keep him alive. I do like the idea of oracle and would consider it. But I would have to boost cha to 14 to multi class sorcerer. @Everyone else, am taking into consideration your build suggestions, I’m looking them up and analyzing what I’d be capable of or not.
I do like the idea of oracle and would consider it. But I would have to boost cha to 14 to multi class sorcerer.
Just to note that Oracle is CHA based class. You want to max CHA so having enough for Sorcerer is no problem. It and Sorcerer tend to be handy archetypes for each other for that reason and also because they have abilities that help the other one. :)
I do like the idea of oracle and would consider it. But I would have to boost cha to 14 to multi class sorcerer.Just to note that Oracle is CHA based class. You want to max CHA so having enough for Sorcerer is no problem. It and Sorcerer tend to be handy archetypes for each other for that reason and also because they have abilities that help the other one. :)
I know but given this isn’t pathfinder 1e, I’m trying to pick spells not affected by cha, cause it is very hard to not get koed as a sorcerer even if you keep distance because of bad saves and Hp. Points into cha means I can’t put them elsewhere. At level 20 I could have, 20 con, 20 wis, 18 dex 18 str, 12 int, 12 cha. Dwarf gives con and Wis and another dex preferably. Background with con and add Wis, str, dex, con Wis at level 1. Every 5th level pump those 4. Last level you already have 20 con and Wis so you pump int and cha. The goal is to not be koed during the whole campaign while still being useful at least a tiny bit, even though the healers get you up quickly. Edit: I looked at tree razors ac. 54. So a fighter with 22 str or dex and a +3 weapon has to roll a 17 just to hit as his modifier is 37. Not taking into account buff spells. Hence the force barrage. The other way for almost guaranteed damage is fighter with a sling and the biggest big rock bullets you can afford since they do half damage on a miss, you just have to roll above a 7 to not miss and pump your sling full of runes for extra damage.
Why are you so hung up on your stats? You're going to end on +7 int/cha (max casting with apex), +5 dex (max AC for non-plate), +4 con, +4 wis (base 12, boost at 5, 10, 15). And as a caster you need to blow general and/or archetype feats to access heavy armor which is a total waste unless you're going into champion archetype which needs cha anyway unless you get it through aiuvarin multitalented. Skipping your casting stat only gets you +1 con or wis in the end which is pretty pointless.
Why are you so hung up on your stats? You're going to end on +7 int/cha (max casting with apex), +5 dex (max AC for non-plate), +4 con, +4 wis (base 12, boost at 5, 10, 15). And as a caster you need to blow general and/or archetype feats to access heavy armor which is a total waste unless you're going into champion archetype which needs cha anyway unless you get it through aiuvarin multitalented. Skipping your casting stat only gets you +1 con or wis in the end which is pretty pointless.
if as many enemies are as tanky as tree razors, that fighter or gunslinger has to roll a 17 just hit tree razors, any other class would have to roll a 19 since their attacks start with trained and not expert. I’m betting other bosses/enemies have really high ac and saves. In other words it is pointless to attacks that target ac or saves in the campaign unless you are a fighter. Any class except the fighter will have a hard time hitting the bosses. They won’t have 54 ac, but I’m sure you will have to roll high just to hit. I’m not picking up heavy armor, a good dex with light armor is just one less ac than platemail. Anyway I looked at oracle and I still don’t understand how you get a curse or exactly what triggers it.
@Everyone thanks for the reponses. Wizard preparing nothing but force barrage is the worse choice I can make. Psychic is almost as bad. I looked more closely at sorcerer bloodlines hence missed the psycho pump . I definitely am taking a closer at oracle, cleric and bard. I knew bard was option, didn’t know the divine classes were an option.
You... you do know you're not aiming to kill Treerazer in a white room, right? It's a level 25 unique creature, you are not fighting anything close to it, I'm not sure why you're taking Treerazer's stats to be representative of anything
If you're that microfocused on beating Treerazer (and only treerazer) without playing the buff/debuff game you're better off finding some way to automatically or near-automatically apply holy damage (holy champion w/ shield of the spirit, swashbuckler multiclass exemplar to Precise Strike with sanctified soul, anyone who can cast Divine Immolation). At least then you won't die to the regular enemies because you hyperfocused on a low damage spell thinking you can't hit enemies for ???
what do you mean by playing the buff/defuff game? If I cast haste on all my allies which isn’t affected by how much cha I have is that not a buff? Or elemental absorption. Many bosses are immune to debuffs or at least resistant in every version of D&d I’ve known. Immune to demoralize, fear effects, etc. +2 vs fear effects.
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I'd reemphasize the Oracle option here, since it can grab all the benefits of the Sorcerer, but Oracles also get:
+ Legendary Will saves
+ Light Armor Proficiency (so 4 DEX gives you max AC for a caster)
+ 8 hp per level (2 more than Sorcerers, Wizards, and Witches)
+ the entire divine list with all its amazing buffs & holy damage options
Grab Nethys as your deity and get Force Barrage, Wall of Force, and Quandary as your deity spells from Divine Access.
Get a Faith Tattoo for a pittance of gold to get Nethys' Holy sanctification. You can also upgrade the tattoo to get 1 more cast of Force Barrage per day, if you really want to.
An Oracle's curse is dormant unless you use special oracle abilities with the "cursebound" trait; each time you use such an ability your cursebound increases by 1 step, worsening the curse's effects on you. Each mystery has its own curse and it describes which effects you experience at any given cursebound level (+ the effects of the lower cursebound levels). These cursebound abilities are often quite strong and have a low action cost, so they're still worth using. You can get one for free, Whispers of Weakness as a Lore Oracle, and get others from oracle feats; good ones are Foretell Harm (for damage), Oracular Warning (for initiative), Nudge the Scales (for Healing), and Knowledge of Shapes (if you have Reach or Widen metamagic). Whenever you Refocus you decrease your cursebound value by one (cursebound 0 means the curse is dormant again).
These are basically "negative focus point"-abilities. For example, say you cast a 5th-rank Force Barrage for 3 actions, for a total of 9 force shards, then use Foretell Harm (a free action!): every enemy hit by at least one of the shards would take an additional 10 force damage (double the 5th rank) at the beginning of their turn once. This is a big damage upgrade! Your cursebound value would increase by 1, resulting in a -1 status penalty to your Will saves (for a Lore Mystery Oracle).
As for other classes: While the Bard is a great buffer, your party will expect you to buff them instead of dealing damage, and you have fewer spell-slots than a Sorcerer or Oracle. Cleric is similar in this regard (unless you have the Warpriest doctrine) with healing expected from you throughout and fewer spell-slots (not counting your additional Heal spells from Divine Font). Cleric is also a prepared caster, which means you can't spontaneously decide to use a spell-slot for Force Barrage.
As for abilities: There's no need to skip Charisma. The highest non-class ability you can reach is 5 [which is the modifier +5, i.e. a score of 20 in DnD terms]. Your Charisma can go up to 6. Casters usually dump Strength and either Charisma (prepared casters) or Intelligence (spontaneous casters). Since you get 4 ability increases at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, and you can't put two increases at the same level into into the same stat, you basically choose 4 ability to increase and 2 to leave be. For defenses you need WIS (for Will saves), CON (for hit points & Fort saves), and DEX (for AC & Reflex saves). So you can totally raise Charisma to its max (+6) and still max out those 3 other ability (+5), though you would need an ancestry with either a -1 ("ability flaw") in Strength or Intelligence to reach +5 in all 3 (or take the Amnesiac or Discarded Duplicate background). Now if you want to invest more into Intelligence, then you can – by all means – divest from Charisma, but it's still better to decrease Dexterity or Constitution by 1 to do so.
Example ability array for a level 20 Oracle and the ancestry either Gnome, Halfling, Sprite, Ratfolk, or Tripkee:
STR -1
DEX +4
CON +4
INT +4
WIS +5
CHA +6
Since boosting an ability from +4 to +5 takes 2 boosts, leaving DEX & CON at +4 instead of raising them to +5 gives you 4 boosts to raise your Intelligence to +4 as well.
For comparison, here is a maxed defensive ability array (same ancestry as before):
STR -1
DEX +5
CON +5
INT +0
WIS +5
CHA +6
The +5 in DEX isn't doing anything for your AC, since Light Armor has a +4 DEX cap, so it would only give you a +1 on Reflex saves. The +5 in CON would give you 20 hp and a +1 in Fort saves.
All of those arrays assume you max Charisma. So you see that you can totally raise CHA to the max and still reach maximum defenses for a caster. I.e. dumping Charisma doesn't do anything to help you with your defenses. The only question is whether you want to sacrifice your casting stat for some more Intelligence – which only really helps with Recall Knowledge for Lore skills; the main Recall Knowledge skill for Spore War is Religion, which is based on Wisdom anyway and doesn't care about Intelligence.
I know but given this isn’t pathfinder 1e, I’m trying to pick spells not affected by cha, cause it is very hard to not get koed as a sorcerer even if you keep distance because of bad saves and Hp. Points into cha means I can’t put them elsewhere. At level 20 I could have, 20 con, 20 wis, 18 dex 18 str, 12 int, 12 cha. Dwarf gives con and Wis and another dex preferably. Background with con and add Wis, str, dex, con Wis at level 1. Every 5th level pump those 4. Last level you already have 20 con and Wis so you pump int and cha. The goal is to not be koed during the whole campaign while still being useful at least a tiny bit, even though the healers get you up quickly. Edit: I looked at tree razors ac. 54. So a fighter with 22 str or dex and a +3 weapon has to roll a 17 just to hit as his modifier is 37. Not taking into account buff spells. Hence the force barrage. The other way for almost guaranteed damage is fighter with a sling and the biggest big rock bullets you can afford since they do half damage on a miss, you just have to roll above a 7 to not miss and pump your sling full of runes for extra damage.
I think you're overthinking it. :) Spore War is a high level campaign, so you start with lots of boosts and enough general feats for things like Toughness.
My Gnome Oracle in this campaign is level 17. Here's my super not-optimized ability scores:
STR -1, DEX 4, CON 3, INT 4, WIS 3, CHA 6.
At level 20 it'll be:
STR -1, DEX 4, CON 4, INT 5, WIS 4, CHA 7.
I have so much INT for character narrative reasons. I still managed to get all my defense abilities to +4 and max CHA. If you don't dump so much into INT the way I did, you can get your defenses up a lot earlier and still max CHA.
Like its possible to start this campaign with 0 STR, +4 DEX, +4 CON, 0 INT, +3 WIS, +5 CHA. You want that CHA because all your best offensive spells use it, and at some point you're going to want to cast offensively. There's massively devastating spells that use it and can effectively end fights in one cast.
So, don't worry. Max CHA, invest in your defenses and then whatever else you want some of, and you'll be in good shape. :) Especially if you go Oracle, as it's base defenses are better than Sorcerer: 2 extra HP/level, light armor proficiency, legendary Will saves. You can even give yourself a reusable 1 action heal in Nudge the Scales to help with extra sustain while still casting offensively if you want to.
Stuff in this campaign does hit hard, but the best defense is a good offense: If you remove something from the board entirely, it's not attacking anyone.
what do you mean by playing the buff/defuff game? If I cast haste on all my allies which isn’t affected by how much cha I have is that not a buff? Or elemental absorption. Many bosses are immune to debuffs or at least resistant in every version of D&d I’ve known. Immune to demoralize, fear effects, etc. +2 vs fear effects.If you're unfamiliar with PF2e, the answer to 'what do I do if a maxed out fighter can only hit the enemy on a 17' is 'give buffs and debuffs until it's more of a 11' which is broadly doable especially since, I have to emphasise, you are not fighting Treerazer until level 20.
Treerazer is tragically immune to mental and poison, but there are ways to stick sickened and clumsy that aren't those, so use them. Heroism 9th is the easy way to give others +3 everything. There's four of you vs one of him, you should be able to get that to stick somehow. Ideally by having, you know, a good casting stat.
But more generally, it's incredibly silly to leave most of your kit as a caster at home because you're scared the enemy crit succeeds. Spells that target enemies are good! OK, not AC spells, but still. Treerazer has a low Ref of +40 and no way to upgrade saves. The aforementioned Divine Immolation is a reflex save spell with persistent damage that deals holy damage, its weakness. It will chew through Treerazer's HP if you do the sensible thing and max out your casting stat. Heck, cast Divine Wrath anyway; it targets the stronger Fort save but it inflicts sickened on failure.
Also, I have to emphasise:
I’m betting other bosses/enemies have really high ac and savesTreerazer is level 25. Not even AV was mean enough to throw PL+5 enemies out like candy. Most bosses you face will not be nearly as hard to hit BUT they will have more minions that can hurt you, more ways to put the hurt on you. Get a good casting stat and save spells. Don't pin everything on the reliable but piddly damage of force barrage. Please. That's just asking...
okay that makes sense, I did miss 40 reflex was low, and I mostly played at low levels, I didn’t know buffs could go that high. I’ve seen bards buff in action. Edit looking at the oracle again as to what people said, it does seem like a good choice and pick spells that target reflex. Blessed boundary seemed like a really good one. Doesn’t do holy buff continuous damage is good.
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I did miss 40 reflex was low
40 Reflex isn't low, but Reflex is Treerazer's lowest save. That's a typical thing: the bigger the creature, the lower its Reflex save and the higher its Fortitude save. A high Will save is often tied to spellcasting or supernatural powers, which is also something Treerazer has obviously.
But at level 20, if you max your casting stat, you have a DC of 10 [base] +20 [your level] +8 [legendary proficiency] +7 [casting stat] = 45. So Treerazer's chances on a Reflex save against your spells are:
5% chance to crit fail
15% chance to fail
50% chance to succeed
30% chance to crit succeed
And if your party manages to debuff Treerazer, e.g. Frightened or Sickened, then the chances move by 5%. in your favor. You might also be able to buff your DC a bit, e.g. the 10th-rank spell Conquering Soldiers gives your party a +2 status bonus to attacks, saves, and their DCs, which includes your spell DC (though Treerazer is immune to the negative arrival effects of that spell). And spells also have a short detrimental effect if an enemy succeeds (but not crit succeeds) against them.
So it's not as bad as you think, e.g. with him Sickened 1 and you buffed by the Conquering Soldiers, his chance to crit succeed would be merely 15%, lower than his chance to fail (30%).
I did miss 40 reflex was low40 Reflex isn't low, but Reflex is Treerazer's lowest save. That's a typical thing: the bigger the creature, the lower its Reflex save and the higher its Fortitude save. A high Will save is often tied to spellcasting or supernatural powers, which is also something Treerazer has obviously.
But at level 20, if you max your casting stat, you have a DC of 10 [base] +20 [your level] +8 [legendary proficiency] +7 [casting stat] = 45. So Treerazer's chances on a Reflex save against your spells are:
5% chance to crit fail
15% chance to fail
50% chance to succeed
30% chance to crit succeedAnd if your party manages to debuff Treerazer, e.g. Frightened or Sickened, then the chances move by 5%. in your favor. You might also be able to buff your DC a bit, e.g. the 10th-rank spell Conquering Soldiers gives your party a +2 status bonus to attacks, saves, and their DCs, which includes your spell DC (though Treerazer is immune to the negative arrival effects of that spell). And spells also have a short detrimental effect if an enemy succeeds (but not crit succeeds) against them.
So it's not as bad as you think, e.g. with him Sickened 1 and you buffed by the Conquering Soldiers, his chance to crit succeed would be merely 15%, lower than his chance to fail (30%).
Ancestral Memories from Sorcerer (or Sorcerer dedication) is great for this as well because that -3 to saves significantly changes the outcome chances and it just works.
Against a "boss" enemy like Treerazer it's IMO one of the strongest focus spells in the game.
I did miss 40 reflex was low40 Reflex isn't low, but Reflex is Treerazer's lowest save. That's a typical thing: the bigger the creature, the lower its Reflex save and the higher its Fortitude save. A high Will save is often tied to spellcasting or supernatural powers, which is also something Treerazer has obviously.
But at level 20, if you max your casting stat, you have a DC of 10 [base] +20 [your level] +8 [legendary proficiency] +7 [casting stat] = 45. So Treerazer's chances on a Reflex save against your spells are:
5% chance to crit fail
15% chance to fail
50% chance to succeed
30% chance to crit succeedAnd if your party manages to debuff Treerazer, e.g. Frightened or Sickened, then the chances move by 5%. in your favor. You might also be able to buff your DC a bit, e.g. the 10th-rank spell Conquering Soldiers gives your party a +2 status bonus to attacks, saves, and their DCs, which includes your spell DC (though Treerazer is immune to the negative arrival effects of that spell). And spells also have a short detrimental effect if an enemy succeeds (but not crit succeeds) against them.
So it's not as bad as you think, e.g. with him Sickened 1 and you buffed by the Conquering Soldiers, his chance to crit succeed would be merely 15%, lower than his chance to fail (30%).
okay thanks I might follow your build a good bit. I did play the game on a weekly basis for about 2 months before I spilled water on my laptop. The Dm mentioned during the campaign while we were level 12 that tree razor is almost impossible to kill or he will party wipe you, he and you need a plan to kill him. I did get a new computer, one better at handling foundry more than 3 months later, but I’d thought I’d wait till a new campaign of it started up. When I looked at his stats I was convinced guaranteed damage is the only way. I was looking at fighters using big rock bullets and spell casters force barrages. I plan to join the campaign around the 2nd or 3rd session. If nobody picks Oracle I’m joining with that. Otherwise fighter with sling, but I don’t have to specialize in slings at first, I start with bows, then pick slings when it asks me again. The one thing I’m not sure about, it says big rock bullets still do damage on a miss. If my sling has Greater frost, fire and electricity do those apply on a miss if I use big rock bullet and miss as well as the greatest striking rune? Edit actually I can pick bow the whole time cause I’ll get sling at legend at level 19.
Yes, if Force Barrage was just a means to an end – instead of the end itself – can you tell us a bit more about your goals? And maybe a little bit about any variant rules your campaign might use, e.g. Free Archetype? And do you know a little bit about the party composition already?
Yes, if Force Barrage was just a means to an end – instead of the end itself – can you tell us a bit more about your goals? And maybe a little bit about any variant rules your campaign might use, e.g. Free Archetype? And do you know a little bit about the party composition already?
All the ones I'm looking at on Start Playing have Free Archetype and are ready to start playing this month. Party composition, not sure yet. I'll pick Oracle if nobody else does with your suggestions, they have good reflex damaging spells. Otherwise Dex based fighter with bow but switch to sling at the last 2 levels and stack up on big rock bullets. I plan on joining on session 2 since I've already seen the beginning and can miss the first session. There is a chance someone else takes the last spot by waiting, but there are also multiple games I can join. Big Rock bullets hit on a miss I just don't know if other damage applies on a miss like greater striking runes, Greater shock runes, etc. I know he has resistance but some of that will get through.
Goals:
1st goal: Useful spells in combat, even if I can't damage the enemy or do very much damage, I can buff allies, haste, heroism, etc. Or say put a wall of stone up separating half of the enemies form the party so we only deal with 3 instead of 6 at a time. The other 3 might spend a round or 2 going around that wall, or I just barricade one or two in entirely thus it now has to break that wall.
2nd goal: Make sure I don't have to roll incredibly high just to do any damage to Tree Razor whatsoever or that he won't easily crit succeed my spells.
3rd goal: To not get koed before round 3 of any combat: I know this campaign has mind effects all over the place. So Con and Wis are useful here. Don't know how often grabbed will apply but maybe acrobatics dex instead of athletics strength will be useful here.
OK, that makes things a lot more clear, thank you.
First, Magical Ammunition (like Big Rock Bullets) only does the normal weapon damage on a successful hit. You only use your fundamental runes, i.e. +1/+2/+3 runes and normal/Greater/Superior Striking runes, but no property runes (like Shock runes). Major Big Rock Bullets add 12d6 extra bludgeoning damage on a hit or critical hit (this damage isn't doubled on a crit). The miss effect (but not crit miss) is special to the Big Rock Bullets and applies as written, so without any normal weapon damage, a mere 6d6 bludgeoning.
Now, without spoiling too much but Treerazer has physical damage resistance 20 (except cold iron). So on a miss with a Major Big Rock Bullet (which costs nearly 1,200 gp per shot), you would do an average of 1 bludgeoning damage: 6d6 = 21 (on average), then subtract the 20 resistance → 1 damage (on average). So I don't think they're helping you at all vs Treerazer if you're afraid of missing your strikes.
1:
Useful spells is difficult to explain, as that would take very long. So I would point you to Gortle's Spell Guide (for Sorcerers), as it is the best guide on spells out there, especially from the perspective of spontaneous spellcasters (Oracles are like "divine Sorcerers", so to speak). Divine casters don't have Haste or Wall of Stone, but Wall of Virtue is a good option: enemies can still move through, but their holy weakness is triggered (since you'll be playing in Foundry: good damage is turned into spirit damage with the holy trait).
2:
As shown above, even Treerazer has only a 30% chance of crit succeeding your Reflex spells if you raise your casting stat as normal to the max. Your party can debuff him, like Frightened, Sickened, or the Ancestral Memories focus spell of the Imperial Sorcerer. Boosting your spell DC is nearly impossible, except for the aforementioned Conquering Soldiers spell and the 8th-rank Holy Host (Garuda option) spell – this Holy Host (Garuda) spell even has a good chance to damage Treerazer (as it targets Reflex saves) and trigger his Holy weakness, before giving you the +1 DC bonus for 1 round.
3:
Your party should know how to work together and who is in the frontline (melee martials) and who is in the backline (casters like you). If you get your DEX, CON, and WIS to +4 (or even to +5) you will be mostly fine. Grabbed does come up sometimes, but it's usually the frontliners that get grabbed. If you're afraid of that, there are a few ways to deal with that using magic, the Coiling Dance spell for example. For saves, make sure to take Canny Acumen for Fort or Reflex saves. And for the mental effects: Oracles are one of the few classes that actually get legendary Will save proficiency, only trailing the Cleric with their higher WIS a bit.
Though, there is a neat little "cheat" to beat the Clerics there: Take the Mysterious Repertoire feat to learn Hidden Mind and cast it on yourself, then retrain the spell so you can put another one into your repertoire that you actually want to cast while "sustaining" the spell every day during Daily Preparations; that way the Hidden Mind spell will keep going and going, providing the +4 status bonus to your Will save, even though the spell is no longer in your repertoire.
Another option available to Oracles: take the Nudge the Scales feat and switch to void healing (as if you were undead), which makes you immune to all the void damage that comes your way. If you're the party healer, then it's not a big issue, as you can still heal yourself with Medicine (you're not actually undead, so it works just fine), the Nudge the Scales feat, or the Harm spell (maybe make it a signature spell just like Heal). Void doesn't comes up frequently but several times (especially fighting Treerazer!), while the opposite is true for vitality damage: it never comes up (apart from the super-rare enemy casting the Execute spell).
There are a few other ways to boost your saves, usually by taking certain ancestry feats. The Orc/Dromaar feat Pervasive Superstition is great here; and while Leshys have a very similar feat, it's really bad to play a plant or fungus creature against Tanglebriar, so no Leshy!
If you want to go on the offensive more often, the Tempest or Flames mysteries are good choices with their focus spells and their bonus spells (Chain Lightning, Fireball). Flames Oracles also benefit incredibly from the Orc feat Death's Drums, basically gaining a permanent +2 to their Fortitude saves.
In a Free Archetype game, take the Sorcerer archetype with the Imperial bloodline, so you can get their Ancestral Memories focus spell and can use arcane spells from items like scrolls, wands of Tailwind, or staves.
If you're that worried about treerazer why not just work with the rest of your party to make sure you're in a position to cheese him with quandry? Snarecrafter archetypes dealing damage and stunning with stunning snares and instant evisceration snares, kineticist archetypes dealing automatic damage with berms, throwing holy water at a familiar to splash him for 21 and negate regen, etc.
For example, triple kineticist archetype plus quandry is average 200ish automatic damage after resistance, (3×6×(9d6-20)) kills him in 3-4 quandries even through some regen, just make sure to position the berms and the party so he can't just fly away after losing an action to break the quandry. It's not glamorous, but it'll get the job done.
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Is it common in your groups to look at stat blocks of enemies of a campaign you are playing, let alone the end boss?
It would be a great no-no for me or any of the GMs i play with.
APs are designed to be beatable, improve your tactics, find group synergies and you should be fine.
Look for information in character, listen to clues your GM gives you and adjust your equipment or spells and you should be fine - dice willing, of course!
Is it common in your groups to look at stat blocks of enemies of a campaign you are playing, let alone the end boss?
It would be a great no-no for me or any of the GMs i play with.APs are designed to be beatable, improve your tactics, find group synergies and you should be fine.
Look for information in character, listen to clues your GM gives you and adjust your equipment or spells and you should be fine - dice willing, of course!
The DM said you guys need a strategy for beating Tree Razor, implying to look him up. He said he can party wipe you but is beatable if you build around him, implying build around him ahead of time. That was before water spilled on my labtop and thus I missed over 3 months thus continue the campaign or wait till a new one starts which I'm starting over.
Honestly though do good AP Dms give advice on how to beat endgame bosses or advice throughout the campaign, without direct spoilers? I've played with very few GMs that give character building advice. Like if I were to actually build a Sorcerer who's only attack spell was force barrage and all my other spells were say, water walk, fly, haste, ooze form, etc. where I actually had zero spells affected by charisma, would the DM actually say something and make suggestions on the spells? Or if I had an archetype that had little sense, like Sorcerer with Barbarian archetype would the DM actually question it or ask why. I had a DM while playing Abomination Vaults, I was playing a Wizard, he examined my playstyle and my wizard died. He told me I'd like Magus better and how to effectively use one and this was on Start playing. I did like Magus better. But DMs like that even on Start playing are rare.
Here's a sample build of for a strong, versatile Oracle (Pathbuilder link): Fierani's Frigid Fury.
- "Idea": Yaksha (primal guardian creature) who lived for centuries in the Fierani forest.
- Base: Tempest Oracle with Imperial Sorcerer & Medic archetypes.
- Maxed for defenses: +4 DEX & CON & WIS at level 11; +5 at level 20.
- Divine Access: Slow & Howling Blizzard (Sithhud, cold domain)
- Self-defense reactions: Deep Breath cantrip; Interposing Earth, Wooden Double*, Scintillating Safeguard, Unexpected Transposition spells.
- Medic: Medicine skill maxxed, Battle Medicine, Doctor's Visitation, Treat Condition.
- Healer: Heal*, Cleanse Affliction*, Restoration (2, H:4), Martyr's Intervention, Warping Pull spells.
- Buffer: Bless, Benediction, Infuse Vitality, Heroism (3, H:6, H:9), Enlarge (H:4), Invisibility (H:4), Haste (3, H:7), True Target spells.
- Debuffer: Calm*, Slow (3, H:6), Freezing Rain, Wall of Stone, Interstellar Void (F), Quandary, Overwhelming Presence spells.
- Offense (Reflex): Holy Cascade, Radiant Beam, Divine Immolation, Howling Blizzard*, Chain Lightning*.
- Offense (Fortitude): Thunderburst (F), Divine Wrath*, Spiritual Torrent, Divine Decree, Execute, Spirit Song.
- Offense (Will): Pain of Ages, Attacked from Within, Dimensional Excision.
- Spell DC Improvements: Ancestral Memories (AM) for -2/-3 status penalty, Hunt the Razer's Pawn (HtRP) for -1/-2 circumstance penalty, Holy Host for +1 circumstance bonus, Conquering Soldiers for +2 status bonus.
(This includes stuff gained at later levels, ofc. At the beginning you are level 11, with 6th-rank Oracle spells and 4rd-rank Sorcerer spells.)
This loadout is extremely strong on the Reflex side, especially for a divine caster, allowing you to choose between cone, line, burst, or selection – though one could add Eclipse Burst there if desired. The Will-save spells Pain of Ages & Attacked from Within are non-mental (so no immunity problems there) – but Ancestral Winds could be a good addition. The Fort-spells are all top.
Your first turn in a normal encounter could look like this:
1 Action: HtRP on one enemy
2-3 Actions: Loose Time's Arrow
Second turn
1 Action: AM on one enemy
Free Action: Knowledge of Shapes (Widen Spell)
2-3 Actions: Divine Wrath
Free Action: Foretell Harm
If you stack both HtRP & AM on one enemy, they basically have a -4 to their save vs Divine Wrath.
This is very versatile, with strong options in every area expected from divine casters, but with incredible offensive powers, and some arcane utility. Scrolls, wands, and a staff can expand on (arcane) options.
p.s.: Divine Access has nothing to do with the deity you worship. It's just a way for an Oracle to siphon divine power from one of your mystery's domains. You should choose a deity that offers Holy sanctification for your worship. (long list)
Is it common in your groups to look at stat blocks of enemies of a campaign you are playing, let alone the end boss?
It would be a great no-no for me or any of the GMs i play with.
It's worth pointing out that Treerazer was in the original Bestiary as the biggest creature. A lot of folks would have looked at it as an example of a BBEG because it was the only one in the book.
This AP also telegraphs pretty clearly who the BBEG is. Hell, LO: Shining Kingdoms even talks about the aftermath.
So while I don't think its normal to go look up the BBEG, this is not a normal situation in that regard. It appears the GM also specifically told OP that Treerazer would be hard to hit and that's what set this off, it's totally valid for OP to consider that.
