Looking for some advice on this:
Gift of Consumption:
Witch exposed to effect that requires Fortitude Save, can curse (immediate act, 30’) opponent with same effect.
Greater Gift of Consumption:
Witch can intentionally expose herself to an effect requiring Fortitude Save and opponent gets minus 4 to save. If witch fails own Fortitude Save, she can redirect the result to the opponent.
Player is using “Coup de Grace” as the effect requiring Fortitude Save. (Full round action with automatic Critical Hit).
My issue with this is that one of the main conditions of a Coup de Grace is that the opponent must be helpless, and that is not the case when this hex is being used.
Is this possible? Any thoughts?
To use to use gift on consumption the witch must be subject to the effect they are trying to share. That means in this case the witch must be subject to a coup de grace. To be the subject of a coup de grace the target (the witch in this case) must be helpless. Using the gift of consumption requires an immediate action. While the helpless condition does not explicitly prevent you from taking an immediate action, many of the conditions that impose it do.
Gift of consumption allows a witch to share a condition they have been exposed to that requires a fortitude save. The saving throw of a coup de grace is based on the damage the character takes. That means the saving throw comes after the damage has been determined.
For this to work, the witch must be helpless (to be subject to the coup de grace), but still able to perform an immediate action. They then need to survive the damage of the coup de grace, at that point they can use the hex on a legitimate target within 30 feet. At this point both the witch and the target need to make fortitude saves equal to the 10 + damage taken or die. In any case the with still takes the damage of the coup de grace even the subject of the hex is the one performing it.
I can see a witch attempting this to try and take down their killer. Considering how difficult it is to pull off, if the witch manages it great.
As long as the Witch can take a mental immediate action, she can use GoC to share (or pass on, with GGoC) the fort save from Coup de Grace.
Most CdG are made against unconscious enemies, but it would work if the Witch is paralyzed, pinned, or tied up, as these all allow mental actions yet allow CdG. Some class features can also probably make it happen.
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It is worth noting that while Gift of Consumption (Su) is flagged as being PFS Legal, Greater Gift of Consumption (Su) is not and since it doesn't seem to be outright 'evil' or involve any of the banned subsystems (crafting, stamina points, mythic, etc.), this is a decent indicator that it is considered either too powerful or too confusing for Organized Play.
I'm not seeing any obvious confusion issues, so I'm going say this power is just considered to be potentially too ridiculously powerful and GMs might want to think twice about allowing it in their games.
Fortitude is a low save for a witch. To use the hex the witch must be subject to the effect requiring the fortitude save. That is limits how powerful the hex really is. Its best use is vs another caster with a poor fortitude save to take out the opposing caster that also has a poor fortitude save. Most of the time that is going to be another arcane caster. Most divine casters have good fortitude saves, which limits its effectiveness vs them.
This will often be a hail marry action for the witch.
Thanks for all the comments and advice. I should probably have added that the manner in which the witch in question exercises this ability, is to have her scorpion familiar sting her. I think she would argue that she makes herself "helpless" in this way.
I am not sure that the witch allowing this actually makes herself helpless - more like "vulnerable".
Greater GoC says the witch can "redirect" the effect to her opponent, so I'm not sure if she should be subject to the damage of the coup de grace (i.e. damage dealt)
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Re-read the 'greater' version's text:Fortitude is a low save for a witch. To use the hex the witch must be subject to the effect requiring the fortitude save. That is limits how powerful the hex really is. Its best use is vs another caster with a poor fortitude save to take out the opposing caster that also has a poor fortitude save. Most of the time that is going to be another arcane caster. Most divine casters have good fortitude saves, which limits its effectiveness vs them.
This will often be a hail marry action for the witch.
The witch can more effectively redirect effects to her proxy chosen by the gift of consumption hex. When the witch succeeds at her Fortitude save against an effect that she has redirected to a proxy, the hexed creature takes a –4 penalty on its Fortitude save against the redirected effect. If the witch ever fails a Fortitude save or intentionally exposes herself to an effect that requires a Fortitude save, such as by ingesting a poison, she can redirect that effect to affect ONLY the hexed creature, though the hexed creature can still attempt a saving throw to resist the effects. Once she has redirected an effect to another creature in this way, that creature cannot be affected by the gift of consumption hex again for 24 hours. The witch must have the gift of consumption hex to select this hex.
Did I just fail a Fort Save? I guess that's your problem, not mine...
With a Coup-de-Grace, the witch would still have to deal with the damage, but most other effects can just be pushed onto a foe (provided a 'fresh' target is within range and your immediate action is available) without any other consequences.
You succeed at your Fort Save: Your target takes a penalty on their save
You fail at your Fort Save: You are not affected at all, and your foe still needs to make their save against the effect.
Yep, I can see why this was banned from PFS...
I should probably have added that the manner in which the witch in question exercises this ability, is to have her scorpion familiar sting her. I think she would argue that she makes herself "helpless" in this way.
I am not sure that the witch allowing this actually makes herself helpless - more like "vulnerable".
Unlike willingly accepting spells, there is no rule that allows a PC to make themself helpless. So RAW, it doesn't work.
You could ask your GM to make a flavor-based exception, but beware: being helpless is a condition on the character, so if the Witch was helpless, she'd be helpless against everyone.
"" CRB pg. 567
So even if the GM were to give you permission to make your Witch helpless, that would be risky. And since every condition for helpless prevents the character from doing more than mental actions, the GM should only allow it if the Witch doesn't take any other actions that round.
I'm not seeing any obvious confusion issues, so I'm going say this power is just considered to be potentially too ridiculously powerful and GMs might want to think twice about allowing it in their games.
No, GMs should think twice before banning something just because PFS was too chicken to allow it. And a lot of stuff is banned in PFS not because it's overpowered in a regular game, but because they considered it overpowered in the very specific circumstances of PFS.
In this case, yes, GGoC is very strong. It also takes two hexes (the first one does almost nothing), requires an immediate action (which spends your next turn's swift action, a significant price for a spellcaster), only works once per turn, only works when there's an enemy within 30 ft, and only once for each enemy.
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Breakdown on how GoC and GGoC work:
GoG is usuable as an immediate action when you have to make a fortitude save, and the target has to make the same save.
Greater GoC is a passive hex, you don't actually use it. When you have GGoC, you still have to decide to use GoC, as normal. However, you make your save first. If you succeeed, the target of GoC has to make the save with a -4 penalty. If you fail, you don't take the effect, and the target of GoC has to save against the effect (without a penalty).
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So even if the GM were to give you permission to make your Witch helpless, that would be risky. And since every condition for helpless prevents the character from doing more than mental actions, the GM should only allow it if the Witch doesn't take any other actions that round.
Can you point to the place in the rules that says that you can take mental actions when helpless?
Earlier editions of the game allowed that, but Pathfinder bundled all action together, and, AFAIK, you can't take any action when helpless unless an ability allows them, and then you can take only the allowed actions.
I am really interested in knowing if I have missed something, as Helpless is a term often used but ill-defined. A lot of contributors have used it in different ways.
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Thanks for all the comments and advice. I should probably have added that the manner in which the witch in question exercises this ability, is to have her scorpion familiar sting her. I think she would argue that she makes herself "helpless" in this way.
I am not sure that the witch allowing this actually makes herself helpless - more like "vulnerable".
Greater GoC says the witch can "redirect" the effect to her opponent, so I'm not sure if she should be subject to the damage of the coup de grace (i.e. damage dealt)
Keep in mind that the target of the hex must be within 30' when it is used to redirect the effect. Willfully becoming helpless will require some kind of action, possibly a free action, so it can be done only during the witch's turn. Leaving the helpless condition should be another action (again, probably a free one), so the witch would stay helpless for a whole round. Essentially, the witch is saying to herself: "I must stay immobile, I must stay immobile, I must stay immobile, ..." over and over for 6 seconds while the scorpion familiar lines up its sting attack.
All that for what? Forcing a Fortitude save at maybe 20 on an enemy (it is a scorpion familiar, the base damage is 1d2-4, it will require a lot of resources to get a positive modifier).Essentially, the player is asking you to develop a lot of rules to decide how a gray area of the game works, while getting very little in return.
Seems more like a way to say "How smart I am." on his part, than getting something functional.
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Following Derklord's RAW note: the rest of the helpless entry is
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.If a witch's familiar is an enemy of the witch, she has big issues.
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I think one of the issues with GGoC is that it is such a potentially potent ability available to witches as early as level 1 (when swift actions aren't yet common for many casters). PFS probably would have allowed it if it was a major hex.
The witch needs two hexes to play that trick. If a first-level Witch spends her hex and a feat to gain the ability at first level, she has crippled herself.
Even with the strongest basic familiar, a fox, the save DC would be 10+2d3-2. So, probably, a Fortitude save at DC 11.
The save against the Sleep hex of a first-level witch would be Will 13 even in a low-power campaign.
Most opponents at low levels are bruisers with good fortitude saves, so sleep would be way more efficient.
As an added "bonus", doing a Cop de Grace provokes an attack of opportunity. The Witch risks going through a lot of familiars.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. I now have enough information to bring this subject up at the Gaming Table tomorrow night and make a final decision with the Player in question.
beside having the familiar provoking for performing the coup de grace, you might want to consider smart opponent actions once some of them realize what the witch is doing. if word got out or they dug enough info about her (or rolled a good sense motive or a knowledge check etc?) a well prepared enemy might just ready an action to coup de grace the witch themselves when she let herself be helpless.
all in all a risky maneuver, not much unlike 'sheathing the blade' in all of them sword dueling epic fights. (the act to use one's own body as a sheath to hold the enemy's blade to get a chance to strike them), I'd say roll with it but play the smart enemies smart enough to make it worth it when it works, and dire when failing.
Can you point to the place in the rules that says that you can take mental actions when helpless?
"" CRB pg. 567
"" CRB pg. 568
"Held" and "bound" aren't conditions, but we have something using the term 'bound':
"" CRB pg. 568
"" CRB pg. 200
We also have something that explicitly allows a mental action when "bound":
"" CRB pg. 87
Following strict RAW gets wonky past here because sleep doesn't have any rules, and unconscious doesn't actually outright say anything about restricting actions (only ""), but for paralyzed and pinned we have explicit permission of mental actions.
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but for paralyzed and pinned we have explicit permission of mental actions.
And that is my problem. We have explicit permission for some of the conditions that make someone helpless, not for all.
In this particular situation, the witch should be able to take mental actions, but I was wondering whether you knew of a blanket permission to do so.
... a well prepared enemy might just ready an action to coup de grace the witch themselves when she let herself be helpless.
A minor point of correction here, just to make sure no one get the wrong idea about readying actions:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. ...
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe...
You cannot ready a full-round action, unless you've got another ability that explicitly allows it or lets you reduce the action cost.
Yea, i forgot to edit that, actually even if one could ready a coup de grace in this case i wouldn't recommend it, since he'll act before the witch used her immediate action, if she survive the damage she can bounce his coup de grace back to him, and i think the dc would be a lot higher then the familiar...
but taking a pot-shot at a helpless character (dex=0) is still fair game.
And that is my problem. We have explicit permission for some of the conditions that make someone helpless, not for all.
The "actions in combat" rules say "an immediate action can be performed at any time", so there's the blanket permission until something restricts you.
The actual issue is that unconscious doesn't say you can't take action, and that sleep is not even in the conditions. But I seriously doubt there's a single GM out there who'd let you use hexes while sleeping/unconscious just because the RAW don't technically say you can't.