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Draconic Codex brought us this bad boy.
[three-actions] Requirements The bog archdragon is in a swamp and doesn't have a creature grabbed or restrained in their jaws; Effect The dragon Burrows, and if they end their movement directly under a creature, they make a jaws Strike against that creature, who is off-guard against the attack. If the Strike is successful, the dragon makes an Athletics check to grapple the target with their jaws; like Grab, this check doesn't use or contribute to the archdragon's multiple attack penalty. The dragon then Burrows again; any creature they have grabbed or restrained in their jaws moves with them.
This isn't like the Burrow + Swallow Whole debate where there's an argument to be made that a combo was overlooked by the devs or is/isn't technically allowed. This monster seems to explicitly bury people alive.
This is powerful because most players are not buying an arsenal of items on the off-chance some ambush predator will bury them alive. I'm not even sure what counterplay exists. A bag full of infinite air? Buried alive means you're restrained with no way to Escape, so no manipulate actions. Hero Points? The dragon is the one making all the rolls.
On the flip side, it looks difficult for the dragon to pull off. First it likely makes a DC 11 flat check (imprecise tremorsense) unless the target is Flying high enough that the dragon can see the target at the end of the first Burrow but not so high that the dragon cannot reach. Then the dragon makes that Strike with off-guard, then I think the dragon also needs a separate flat check for a separate Grapple. That's a 3-action activity requiring 4 successes in a row to get the full effect.
But it does kinda fly in the face of that GM Core guideline: "If you're making up an effect, creatures should be incapacitated or killed on only a critical success (or for a saving throw, on a critical failure)." Against lower level players, the dragon might have a very easy time getting all the required successes, especially if a PC is Flying (meaning there is enough room under the PC for the dragon to observe them before the Strike and Grapple).
Does this ability sound right for a level 19 creature?
I'm not even sure what counterplay exists.
Partially that should be something that the GM considers when using this creature.
But yes, there are likely options that are available to an approximately level 19 character to handle being drug under the muck of a swamp. I'm not sure what they are currently either - I rarely play at that high of level.
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Yes, this sounds appropriate for a 19th level creature. As you mentioned, it’s not easy for the dragon to land for level-appropriate PCs. The move is memorable, will lead to a moment of panic as the PCs try to figure out what to do, and it lends to an iconic encounter that people will be talking about for some time.
At this level, the players should have enough resources to deal with it or the attack creates a grudge between the rest of the party and the beast. Either way is great shared storytelling!
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The counterplay is having some vital earth pellets (they’re cheap, 30gp each, should always have them on you by this level)
This will absolutely murder any party that doesn’t habitually carry vital earth though. Brutal game knowledge check.
The counterplay is having some vital earth pellets (they’re cheap, 30gp each, should always have them on you by this level)
This will absolutely murder any party that doesn’t habitually carry vital earth though. Brutal game knowledge check.
Applying those is an Interact action, which can't be done while buried alive. Surely you aren't expecting every party to just burn 30 gp per person at the start of every day in anticipation of this? And if they're such a fundamental item, what are they doing in a supplemental book?
If the ground is that loose, walking on it in the first place probably isn't feasible, as it's likely a quicksand hazard (which has special rules for Swimming out of it).
According to the swamp rules, a lot of swamp is really just difficult or greater difficult terrain.
Applying those is an Interact action, which can't be done while buried alive. Surely you aren't expecting every party to just burn 30 gp per person at the start of every day in anticipation of this? And if they're such a fundamental item, what are they doing in a supplemental book?The counterplay is having some vital earth pellets (they’re cheap, 30gp each, should always have them on you by this level)
This will absolutely murder any party that doesn’t habitually carry vital earth though. Brutal game knowledge check.
If you're being burrowed you ought to have some room to maneuver. Otherwise how are you being moved through the earth?
If you're being burrowed you ought to have some room to maneuver. Otherwise how are you being moved through the earth?
Via dragon magic.
The notion that something could dig a tunnel fast enough that you'd be off guard to the creature is waaaay into the realm of magic.
It's like cartoon logic to the same degree as scrooge mcduck jumping onto a pile of coins and swimming through them.
If it's not in-story magical or supernatural, combat burrow speeds break the verisimilitude really badly, and just makes everything operate under loony toons logic where the notion of action --> reaction itself is no longer intact, lol.
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And burrow speeds deliberately do not leave a tunnel behind by default, that is a separate mechanic that needs to be explicitly stated.
I personally think it's a badly made ability.
It should not be possible for the PCs to have 0 agency as the dragon starts its turn above ground, then does that entire lethal combo within that single turn. That is entirely within the "I had no possible way to know, and now I'm dead" territory. Like, it's legit bad game design, straight up.
At the very, very least, that should have been a [1A]+[2A] 2-turn ability, where the dragon ends one turn underground as a telegraph, then the next turn it makes an attempt to bury a PC 40 ft under. Even if they have no way to know what ending its turn underground means if unfamiliar with the dragon, they can all learn quickly, and the one PC without flight can scramble up a tree to avoid it.
Like, every rpg ever already figured this "telegraph the dangerous stuff, else it comes across as BS" stuff out decades ago.
No reason for ttrpgs to be so far behind.
I'd wager the first Final Fantasy style game with a danger telegraph like "BadBoss raises his sword high!" warning might be 30 years old by now. This aint new.
And those old RPGs also included a cool down, ffs. This bog dragon can literally do this 4x in a row and bury a party of 4 just as quickly. Wtf.
I'm sort of confused at all the hype this ability is getting. It's basically just a free action grab at the cost of only getting to strike once that turn because it's a three action move/strike/move routine.
Good skirmishing. Good for battlefield control, but not really that out there unless you start adding extra bits and bobs to it as a GM... and if you're doing that it's not really a statblock problem in the first place.
It should not be possible for the PCs to have 0 agency as the dragon starts its turn above ground, then does that entire lethal combo within that single turn.
It's actually even nastier than that. The dragon has extreme Stealth and the following reaction.
[reaction] Trigger A creature walks on top of an ancient bog dragon who is burrowed into the mud or peat below; Requirements Initiative has not yet been rolled; Effect The bog dragon automatically notices the creature and Burrows before rolling initiative.
So the dragon is likely to begin combat by Burrowing, then winning initiative with extreme Stealth (I think being 50 feet underground qualifies as greater cover, so +4 bonus on top of that), then using Drag Beneath the Muck immediately.
And given the Stealth usage, I think most GMs would say the PCs start without reactions, so no air bubble in response to someone getting buried.
I'm sort of confused at all the hype this ability is getting. It's basically just a free action grab at the cost of only getting to strike once that turn because it's a three action move/strike/move routine.
Good skirmishing. Good for battlefield control, but not really that out there unless you start adding extra bits and bobs to it as a GM... and if you're doing that it's not really a statblock problem in the first place.
Did you miss the part where the target gets buried alive? The target without a Burrow Speed?
The phrase "buried alive" appears nowhere in the statblock, so no.
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Being buried alive is just the consequence of being buried and also alive.
Or are you suggesting the ability called "Drag Beneath the Muck" is actually just dragging people along the surface of the muck?
What I'm suggesting is that you're injecting a bunch of stuff that has no mechanical presence in the ability. Stuff that you may be able to plausibly string together by inference but does not exist within the monster's entry. There's no mechanical guidance for how to run any of that at all, so you're ending up adlibbing a bunch of new power into an ability and the calling it overpowered based on that.
The ability literally says the dragon drags the target along for the burrow, meaning it then leaves them there. That's 40ft underground. With no burrow speed to get out.
They are fully immobilized, and if they don't already have an air answer (all my PCs now use Deep Breath, because of insta death scenarios just like this one), then they are going to suffocate.
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The Almiraj (level 4) has a similar ability, Into the Earth, where it drags a (not 19th level) PC underground up to its Burrow speed, 25'. That's pretty far down and I'm unsure how digging would operate, but a 25' hole would take hours w/ shovels and a team. Presumably the creature's attacking you too since it "attempts to flee with its meal..."
If the first PC runs up to the beast, the bad-bunny might bury them before the second PC even goes. Hope you have an Earth Kineticist on hand.
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Holy crap, wtf is that L4 Almiraj monstrosity. Into the Earth is a 1A. Any time a PC is grabbed, save or suffocate.
I think some misguided Paizo dev might genuinely think instant kills make the game fun or something, that is even more explicitly a "you're dead" ability than the L19 dragon's...
Almirajes have a nasty habit of grabbing their prey and vigorously shaking them until they go limp. If this fails, they'll drag their prey underground until they suffocate deep in the earth. Few have ever escaped the burrow of an almiraj.
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And the closest relevant rules we have are the burial rules.
Allies or bystanders can attempt to dig out a buried creature. Each creature digging clears roughly a 5-footby-5-foot square every 4 minutes with a successful Athletics check (or every 2 minutes on a critical success). Using shovels or other proper tools halves the time.
The simple DC for the check varies by environmental feature. Avalanches, where the burial rules are found, run from expert to legendary, but that's probably just for the Reflex save to dodge the avalanche. The substance one is buried in should probably be used to determine the DC.
Bog runs from untrained to trained. Ice runs from trained to master. Rubble, sand, and snow run from untrained to expert, and I would probably throw dirt in that list since I don't see a DC band for that in the table. Since the burial rules seem to expect everyone to be pitching in to dig out the victim, the untrained DC 10 is probably best in most circumstances.
If the almiraj Burrows downward the full 25 feet, the victim should end up 20 feet below the surface having traveled the same path. If the other 3 party members all succeed, they can probably dig out each square in 1 minute and 20 seconds. There are 4 squares, so that's 5 minutes and 20 seconds. No one is holding their breath that long without building their character specifically to do that.
Even if the almiraj is nice and only leaves the creature 5 feet underground, that's still 1 minute and 20 seconds. Most people will already be making those Fort saves to avoid death after what, 7 rounds?
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Also, here's a monster that explicitly causes burial.
Urglid, Creature 13. it seems to originate from a legacy AP, but Monster Core 2 has brought it back as a common demon.
[one-action] (concentrate, earth, unholy) With a single, devious thought, the urglid causes a mound of grave soil to well up at a creature's feet. That creature must succeed at a DC 30 Reflex save or become restrained (Escape DC 30). The restrained creature then begins sinking below the ground into a spontaneously formed grave. A creature restrained by this ability for 3 rounds is buried 6 feet deep in the ground and begins suffocating within 1 minute. A buried creature must be dug up to be freed (see Burial). A creature that is slain by Ravenous Earth rises as a ghoul the next midnight.
This one is much better designed since you have an actual opportunity to Escape. Better still, you get a minute to breathe. It's almost like the devs want the player to not automatically die.
I do find it odd that the almiraj was rebuilt from a level 1 creature with a niche horn into this level 4 instakill monstrosity for the remaster. Meanwhile, phantasmal killer (an early spell, but not this early) was changed from instakilling after two unfortunate saves to causing fleeing after crit failing just one save.
While this is brutal to an unprepared party, I would say:
1) We (as GM) should basically never use dragons as a random encounter. I think it undermines dragons as an enemy. So the encounter should always be telegraphed.
2) At the most extreme, we're talking level 15 PCs encountering this dragon. This is going to be extremely challenging, but if they know they're going after a bog dragon they can prepare.
3) With knowledge of what they're facing, they should be able to get some kind of breathing solution. And if the players don't know about a solution, the GM should inform them. The players likely should realize they need access to a source of air. And if nothing else, should tell the players here are some various items that could help in this situation, vital earth easily being the best solution for the situation.
Edit: Additionally NPCs could tell the players about items like the Robe of Stone. Which would be a great item for fighting this dragon, aside from the normal limitations that come with battle forms (this one stops you from casting or using your normal weapons).
There's probably some item out there that could grant you a burrow speed, but this is the first one I found when searching and isn't quite what I want since it's a battle form. But even if your melee PCs only had this option, it's probably still useful since they can challenge the dragon on their terms instead of waiting for it to come to them.
Using foreknowledge to gain an advantage is all well and gold, but if the threat is actually impossible without foreknowledge, then it probably needs more time in the oven.
Using foreknowledge to gain an advantage is all well and gold, but if the threat is actually impossible without foreknowledge, then it probably needs more time in the oven.
Well then, really any creature that can burrow and take other creatures with them probably needs "more time in the oven".
As do creatures that can pick someone up while flying (if they have a fast movement speed) because they could pick them up, fly up high, and drop them. Potentially before the opponent can do much. Although there are a lot of common solutions to reducing/negating fall damage so this one isn't as bad. But if you don't know you need it in advance, you could be pretty screwed.
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The counterplay is having some vital earth pellets (they’re cheap, 30gp each, should always have them on you by this level)
This will absolutely murder any party that doesn’t habitually carry vital earth though. Brutal game knowledge check.
To be fair, I don't think these knowledge checks are particularly interesting or healthy for the game.
You can basically justify any ability against the players as long as there is one item, feature, or spell in the game that lets you counter it.
Using foreknowledge to gain an advantage is all well and gold, but if the threat is actually impossible without foreknowledge, then it probably needs more time in the oven.Well then, really any creature that can burrow and take other creatures with them probably needs "more time in the oven".
As do creatures that can pick someone up while flying (if they have a fast movement speed) because they could pick them up, fly up high, and drop them. Potentially before the opponent can do much. Although there are a lot of common solutions to reducing/negating fall damage so this one isn't as bad. But if you don't know you need it in advance, you could be pretty screwed.
Depends on the level of threat but if it's in instakill territory then yes.
Does this checkbox counterplay actually add anything interesting to these fights? Like it's either you have the counterplay or you don't, and if you don't you die. If you don't have the system knowledge you might not even know how to get that counterplay, so it turns into searching Archives of Nethys for an item or spell that helps you beat the monster. It's just not that interesting.
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Using foreknowledge to gain an advantage is all well and gold, but if the threat is actually impossible without foreknowledge, then it probably needs more time in the oven.
On posts like this I always see people defend the design as long as there is one potential way to counter it through an item or spell. I feel like this logic just leads to there being basically no ability that could be problematic as long as there exists one solution in the rules.
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Using foreknowledge to gain an advantage is all well and gold, but if the threat is actually impossible without foreknowledge, then it probably needs more time in the oven.On posts like this I always see people defend the design as long as there is one potential way to counter it through an item or spell. I feel like this logic just leads to there being basically no ability that could be problematic as long as there exists one solution in the rules.
Yeah, the logic holds up better in a video game where you can reload saves. I have fond memories of changing my entire load-out across multiple saves to experiment and find the right set of abilities to defeat Galdera in Octopath Traveler 1.
But in a TTRPG, your solution needs to already be correct or else you permanently lose a character you've had for a year.
The ability literally says the dragon drags the target along for the burrow, meaning it then leaves them there. That's 40ft underground. With no burrow speed to get out.
They are fully immobilized, and if they don't already have an air answer (all my PCs now use Deep Breath, because of insta death scenarios just like this one), then they are going to suffocate.
Even without scenarios like this, Deep Breath is always a pick for my high-level casters, it saves you from alot of hassle's and effects.
its also fun envisioning to not be breathing most of the day and just taking big breaths from time to time to top off the "tank".
This all reminds me of an analogy I heard on YouTube comparing dating to water parks.
Suppose the first time you go to a water park, a stranger randomly punches you in the face. You had a bad day at that park. Your friends later ask you to come to another water park. You're like, "I dunno. Last time I got punched in the face." But they tell you that you should've just worn a football helmet and give it another try.
So you go to the water park wearing a football helmet. This time, you get stabbed in the leg. Another bad day. Your friends convince you that you should have also been wearing body armor to avoid being stabbed, that not all water parks are like this, and that you should come to a third water park.
So you go to the water park wearing a football helmet and body armor, and it's amazing. You have a wonderful time and would like to go again. But this water park already has a girlfriend, so no such luck.
So you go to a fourth water park wearing a football helmet and body armor and hope in your heart. This time, you get shot.
The analogy is to explain to men why women might be slow to trust them, even in public. But this seems kinda similar to a player only finding out after getting buried before their first turn that "Um, actually, deep breath is a required cantrip and your fighter is unviable without it."
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This all reminds me of an analogy I heard on YouTube comparing dating to water parks.
The analogy is to explain to men why women might be slow to trust them, even in public. But this seems kinda similar to a player only finding out after getting buried before their first turn that "Um, actually, deep breath is a required cantrip and your fighter is unviable without it."Suppose the first time you go to a water park, a stranger randomly punches you in the face. You had a bad day at that park. Your friends later ask you to come to another water park. You're like, "I dunno. Last time I got punched in the face." But they tell you that you should've just worn a football helmet and give it another try.
So you go to the water park wearing a football helmet. This time, you get stabbed in the leg. Another bad day. Your friends convince you that you should have also been wearing body armor to avoid being stabbed, that not all water parks are like this, and that you should come to a third water park.
So you go to the water park wearing a football helmet and body armor, and it's amazing. You have a wonderful time and would like to go again. But this water park already has a girlfriend, so no such luck.
So you go to a fourth water park wearing a football helmet and body armor and hope in your heart. This time, you get shot.
I heard this same analogy over the weekend from @clair_hawkins. Is that where you heard it?
But anyways, I do somewhat agree about the sense of "if your character can be killed with little to no recourse then the GM needs to make you aware of that threat before having you encounter it and also provide a reasonable means to access a solution to that problem prior to the encounter".
Of course, this places a higher burden on GMs because it means some monster should never be used as random encounters and that requires a GM to understand what kinds of abilities are potentially problematic for their party.
Even a simple roc can be a deadly encounter if the roc picks up and flies away with a PC. Especially if the roc is "smart enough" to carry them far away from the party. Which is potentially doable if the roc lives near a mountain, like they normally do.
And sure, you might have enough rounds to potentially break the grapple/restraint. But can you survive the fall? Do you have cat fall? Or featherfall? Or a snap leaf? Can the wizard cast a flying spell on you before you're out of range?
A few things go wrong and now you're a 7th level PC fighting this Roc on your own and having to contend with it potentially dropping you from high enough to kill you.
This all reminds me of an analogy I heard on YouTube comparing dating to water parks.
The analogy is to explain to men why women might be slow to trust them, even in public. But this seems kinda similar to a player only finding out after getting buried before their first turn that "Um, actually, deep breath is a required cantrip and your fighter is unviable without it."Suppose the first time you go to a water park, a stranger randomly punches you in the face. You had a bad day at that park. Your friends later ask you to come to another water park. You're like, "I dunno. Last time I got punched in the face." But they tell you that you should've just worn a football helmet and give it another try.
So you go to the water park wearing a football helmet. This time, you get stabbed in the leg. Another bad day. Your friends convince you that you should have also been wearing body armor to avoid being stabbed, that not all water parks are like this, and that you should come to a third water park.
So you go to the water park wearing a football helmet and body armor, and it's amazing. You have a wonderful time and would like to go again. But this water park already has a girlfriend, so no such luck.
So you go to a fourth water park wearing a football helmet and body armor and hope in your heart. This time, you get shot.
I heard this same analogy over the weekend from @clair_hawkins. Is that where you heard it?
But anyways, I do somewhat agree about the sense of "if your character can be killed with little to no recourse then the GM needs to make you aware of that threat before having you encounter it and also provide a reasonable means to access a solution to that problem prior to the encounter".
Of course, this places a higher burden on GMs because it means some monster should never be used as random encounters and that requires a GM to understand what kinds of abilities are potentially problematic for their party.
Even a simple roc can be a...
The new adamantine dragons can do that, too. Even the young ones have a 90 foot Fly Speed (100 at half HP or lower) and Swallow Whole. And the older ones even get Improved Grab and Fast Swallow.
Have fun Escaping at an altitude of 400 feet.
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Exactly. Falling damage was kind of joke in PF1. But in PF2, it's relatively deadly unless you have something to negate it. And there are relatively ample ways to negate fall damage.
But, at level 7 which is a reasonable time to encounter a challenge like a ROC, you're not guaranteed to have those. You could afford a Snaplead, but did you buy one?
For that same 7th level character (if we look at the treasure for new characters table) to see available currency (baseline expectation is you have a certain amount of higher level permanent items and currency is used to be consumables) then the snapleaf is 9 gp of your 125 gp currency budget. Which is about 7% of your cash for that one item.
It's a good item, but there are lots of good consumables out there. Did you decide to buy this one? Did you have any idea that you needed to have this because otherwise your character might die?
Falling damage is so overtuned in this game. You’re telling me I can get smushed by a giant mech with shipping containers for hands and be basically fine, but god forbid I take a tumble? Bludgeoning damage from falling is treated as some uber deadly special force.
Actual real life unenhanced humans have occasionally taken falls from terminal velocity and lived to tell the tale, it’s on the edge of survivability, you can’t tell me my 10th barbarian will die from it - not when he can take blows that would kill a normal man 16 times over. And gets 60hp of heals the round after!
Falling damage is so overtuned in this game. You’re telling me I can get smushed by a giant mech with shipping containers for hands and be basically fine, but god forbid I take a tumble? Bludgeoning damage from falling is treated as some uber deadly special force.
Actual real life unenhanced humans have occasionally taken falls from terminal velocity and lived to tell the tale, it’s on the edge of survivability, you can’t tell me my 10th barbarian will die from it - not when he can take blows that would kill a normal man 16 times over. And gets 60hp of heals the round after!
Believability within the system/real life aside, the mechanics are very straightforward.
A fall from 400ft is basically a death sentence to anyone.
Even Tarrasque can die from a 1500 foot fall in a plane with the high gravity trait. That's 1500 bludgeoning damage. And since there's no saving throw, he doesn't revive three rounds later.