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I was just thinking about the free-hand MAP rule for Athletics maneuvers.
Multiple Attacks with Athletics
Several Athletics actions have the attack trait, meaning that using them more than once in the same turn makes them less accurate. Since these actions use your free hand, you use the traits for your fist attack to determine the multiple attack penalty, so your fist's agile trait applies. Therefore, you take a –4 penalty if the action is your second attack of the turn, or a –8 if it's the third. Some weapon traits allow you to take these actions using a weapon, in which case the penalty might be –5 or –10 if the weapon doesn't have the agile trait. Some characters can get unarmed attacks without the agile trait as well. If it's unclear which penalty to use, the GM makes the call.
I notice that most of the Risky Press maneuver-like options don't require any kind of free hand, so it seems like you can use them while wielding a two-handed weapon. Generally, the class would like to have a free hand for whenever it does a regular maneuver, but it seems like it's an option.
What does something like Wheeling Pull Stunt use? Can you use a free hand to give the pseudo-maneuver agile? If you have a non-maneuver agile weapon, does the pseudo-maneuver gain agile? Can you use your "fist" attack with your foot to get agile even with your hands occupied?
Going two-handed with DD is an option. The big problem is that it limits you to using Daring Stunt, which is currently the first way to get adrenaline without Press but requires a free hand or a weapon with Trip, Grab or Push traits to allow the character to get adrenaline at the first action to be able to use actions that require adrenaline, especially those that are 2-actions.
Only when you reach level 6 is it possible to get Rushing Strike and get adrenaline without needing a free hand or some special weapon trait.
Yeah, but those weapon with those traits feel pretty on-brand for Daredevils, esp. polearms and bo staffs re: Trip & critting to move your opponent. Since Stunt Damage is mild and circumstantial, the weapon die is much of a Daredevil's damage so hopefully abilities that require a free hand account for that, perhaps with easier Stunt Damage.
Going two-handed with DD is an option. The big problem is that it limits you to using Daring Stunt, which is currently the first way to get adrenaline without Press but requires a free hand or a weapon with Trip, Grab or Push traits to allow the character to get adrenaline at the first action to be able to use actions that require adrenaline, especially those that are 2-actions.
Only when you reach level 6 is it possible to get Rushing Strike and get adrenaline without needing a free hand or some special weapon trait.
Why would you need Daring Stunt? Just attack someone with your d12 two-handed weapon at no MAP, then use a risky press to inflict grabbed or prone via Athletics without using Grab/Trip or using your hands. Adrenaline doesn't do you any good until you have MAP or want to do something that requires it.
Yeah, you're not mobile until Rushing Strike, but that's fine- you still have an action to move and a conditional movement boost.
There are several feats that require Adrenaline that can't be used or get maximum MAP when you get Adrenaline via press action, like Caroming Charge, which costs 2 actions, Daring Reversal, and Headsmash, which suffers from MAP.
There are several feats that require Adrenaline that can't be used or get maximum MAP when you get Adrenaline via press action, like Caroming Charge, which costs 2 actions, Daring Reversal, and Headsmash, which suffers from MAP.
I guess I'm not seeing why you'd want those feats anyway?
Caroming Charge is normally not combined with a damaging attack, outside "random floor junk" or Rushing Strike. Why would you pair it with a two-handed weapon?
Daring Reversal has a similar problem even if you don't have a weapon: you need a non-press source of adrenaline, and that's mostly Daring Stunts. That requires you to have an empty flank spot to move into instead of capitalizing on being flanked.
Headsmash is an incapacitation press adrenaline ability that requires grabbed and being next to the same prop as your target. You only take that if that's your exact build anyway.
If you're grabbing a two-hander, then the class is there to let you do a variety of maneuvers without hands at a reduced MAP which weapon traits don't normally give on two-handers.
Caroming Charge is normally not combined with a damaging attack, outside "random floor junk" or Rushing Strike. Why would you pair it with a two-handed weapon?
Because it's a no MAP damage with a hit and run tactic. Just use Rushing Strike with your d12 weapon to do good damage and get Adrenaline. Then use Caroming Charge to move through that enemy and any other enemies that you can move through, doing automatic Stunt Damage. Try to end in a relatively safe position to do all this again in your next round.
Surely it isn't a bad tactic, and you take the advantage that you can end your turn away from enemies reach, forcing them to have to use at least an action to get closer too.
While you still don't have access to Rushing Strike, you can use Daring Stunt to do the same with a maneuver like Trip with a d12 trip weapon or a free-hand. You will do less damage because only Caroming Charge will apply but you probably will put your first target Prone while you get Adrenaline.
And with a d12 weapon you have the alternative tactic of just Strike strong with your big weapon and then using some Press Risky feat against enemies that can trigger a movement reaction.
Daring Reversal has a similar problem even if you don't have a weapon: you need a non-press source of adrenaline, and that's mostly Daring Stunts. That requires you to have an empty flank spot to move into instead of capitalizing on being flanked.
Daring Reversal is in a more circunstancial and risky situation to make it work but still too fun.
You can move to be between 2 enemies with Daring Stunt, get Adrenaline, then try to Trip or Grapple one of them with this action, then use Daring Reversal to try to Strike one of them (if you used Grapple must be the non-grabbed enemy) with just MAP-3/-4 (depending on if your weapon is agile or not). Shove this enemy to get out of flanking, and then Strike or make a maneuver to the other now off-guard enemy!
It's a perfect representation of what it is to be a Daredevil taking risks (it's basically a cinematic/anime like maneuver).
If you are already flanked, you can just move out and in to your flanked position to make the Daring Stunt/Rushing Strike. Nothing prevents you from using the same Stride to get back to your original position.
Headsmash is an incapacitation press adrenaline ability that requires grabbed and being next to the same prop as your target. You only take that if that's your exact build anyway.
If you're grabbing a two-hander, then the class is there to let you do a variety of maneuvers without hands at a reduced MAP which weapon traits don't normally give on two-handers.
Yes Headsmash is a bit more difficult to make work but can work pretty well with some teamwork and you are playing as a small creature or if you have a Large companion.
Use a Daring Stunt to get Adrenaline and move too close to an enemy adjacent to a larger ally/enemy or your companion (if you have a companion, you can command it to the position before using the Daring Stunt with a free-hand or a weapon like a Gill Hook) or a wall/large object that can be used as a prop and try to Grapple it. If you succeeded, then you can use Headsmash with just MAP-4 to try to do some Stunt Damage and Stun the target and still have a 3rd action to use as you will.
The big advantage of the usage of Daring Stunt instead of another Press Risky maneuver is that you can use Headsmash with a smaller MAP instead of your maximum MAP.
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Fair enough- I guess my approach would be either building around the other feats, or swapping weapons once you have Rushing Strike. The only maneuver trait on a d12 weapon is Shove, and that would require a blocking prop to not shove them out of your reach for Daring Reversal.
There is also the lower-value option of just using Daring Stunt to move without doing a maneuver to stride with the risky trait- it's not action-economy friendly, but you also don't increase MAP.
Yes, I had put the wrong dice. A two-handed Trip weapon is at maximum d10 and not d12.
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Fair enough- I guess my approach would be either building around the other feats, or swapping weapons once you have Rushing Strike. The only maneuver trait on a d12 weapon is Shove, and that would require a blocking prop to not shove them out of your reach for Daring Reversal.
You can add Disarm, Trip and Grapple with the Inventors Weapon Innovation: Entangling Form. You'd have to wait until 8th but you can have a Maul that's 1d12 B Disarm, Grapple, Shove and Trip. [or add Sweep, change damage to 1d12 S and Advanced weapon if you change a Butchering Axe instead]
I don't see why Wheeling Pull would benefit from agile. Inheriting agile is a specific feature of the weapon trait or free hand requirement, neither of which apply here.
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I'd also love to know how this is supposed to work, mostly because opening up daredevils to two-handed, highly mobile builds sounds like a very unique niche that would be great to play.
Ya, that's something I really want to play from the Daredevil.
I have a Greatclub Daredevil in mind that should focus on Daring Stunt to Shove with the Greatclub (and push an enemy more towards a prop), Pressing Pummel, and then Stumbling Retreat when targeted.
BUT...is that better than just playing a Fighter with Vicious Swing, Sudden Charge, or British Shove?
Not so sure it is, but I guess that's something I'll try out and let Paizo know.
I see:
1x agile shove weapon
1x agile grapple weapon
5x agile trip weapons
11x agile disarm weaponsAll of these weapons one-handed.
There are way more weapons with such athletic traits than this and 1/3 of them are two-handed.