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I think that Minions with a Fly Speed should be able to use the "Arrest a Fall" reaction.
This seems ... OC to make minions excessively vulnerable, and IC to make Minions act excessively dumb.
It's mostly the latter that bothers me, TBH.From a "player & DM cognitive load" point of view, the DM doesn't need to engage in any decision making with this - if the Flying Minion gets knocked prone, then yes, it will make that DC 15 acrobatics/reflex check to avoid damage. Done.
I think you're pretty firmly in the territory of "edge cases that require house rulings". Going in and adding a new line to the Player Core minion trait give them a reaction, but only if they have a fly speed, and only to Arrest a Fall, unless they have a reaction from another source...
The headache that would cause seems worse than the problem you're describing.
The headache that would cause seems worse than the problem you're describing.
What headache would it cause?
I think they mean the editing headache for Paizo, not that the rules wouldn’t be clear
Why would arrest fall be different than grabbing an edge? It feels like maybe general advice about what kind of reactions to allow and when would make more sense than trying to sort out all the specific exceptions.
What headache would it cause?The headache that would cause seems worse than the problem you're describing.
Editing headache, as well as all the cumulative little headaches of new players and GMs being presented with "Arrest a Fall" references in an unrelated section for an edge case.
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It seems like the minion trait just needs something in the sentence about having 0 reactions to specify that they have 0 reactions except default reactions to prevent damage, such as from arresting a fall or grabbing an edge.
It doesn’t come up in play because only players tend to have to use minion rules, but if players could just push any creature that wasn’t the boss enemy into a pit without those creatures getting a reaction to not fall, it would be blatantly unrealistic and unfair. The same should be applied to animal companions and other minions.
It almost feels implied by the statement they will take actions on their own to avoid harm, but the “0 reactions” text does look so authoritative that many GMs would assume no exceptions.
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It seems like the minion trait just needs something in the sentence about having 0 reactions to specify that they have 0 reactions except default reactions to prevent damage, such as from arresting a fall or grabbing an edge.
It doesn’t come up in play because only players tend to have to use minion rules, but if players could just push any creature that wasn’t the boss enemy into a pit without those creatures getting a reaction to not fall, it would be blatantly unrealistic and unfair. The same should be applied to animal companions and other minions.
It almost feels implied by the statement they will take actions on their own to avoid harm, but the “0 reactions” text does look so authoritative that many GMs would assume no exceptions.
Yeah, this.
You are right about "grabbing an edge" as well, thanks for spotting that.It's something that's needed for Animal Companions, plus Familiars, plus Summoned monsters.
Otherwise an enemy with Gust of Wind is just ridiculous.
"Minions cannot use reactions listed in that monster's stat block, although they can all default reactions, such as Arrest A Fall and Grabbing An Edge.
Oh, and it needs to be explicit for PFS.
As written, that would be a big buff to minions that would slow combat, since it allows them to use the Aid reaction, as well as readying an action. I know it can be cleaned up, just pointing out it's not quite that simple.
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As written, that would be a big buff to minions that would slow combat, since it allows them to use the Aid reaction, as well as readying an action. I know it can be cleaned up, just pointing out it's not quite that simple.
The familiar ability that gives Fly could also give a reaction for Arrest a Fall, just like several familiar abilities give reactions that can be used to Aid specific skills.
That doesn't help with Grab an Edge, but for the fly case it's an easy fix using existing mechanics and won't cause unexpected issues like a general reaction would.
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It would need to specify that it can use basic reactions to prevent immediate damage to itself. That should prevent any attempts for aiding another or readied actions
in general, a lot of "a normal animal can do it but as soon as it becomes a pet cannot do it" can be ruled in a per table basis to actually function because it's absolutely nonsensical to not baseline.
Definitely the best way to handle it in a home game. "This rule results in a ridiculous, not fun outcome therefore I'm ignoring it" is a great attitude for every GM to have.
it just is weird that a "pet hawk" cannot arrest a fall while a normal hawk can.
or that a "pet cat" can't grab an edge while a normal cat can.
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in general, a lot of "a normal animal can do it but as soon as it becomes a pet cannot do it" can be ruled in a per table basis to actually function because it's absolutely nonsensical to not baseline.
(Meanwhile captain dedication in the corner)
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Minions don't having access to reaction always was a problem in many circumstances.
If your GM allows to use 3rd party, the Magic+ designers solved this partially, allowing the summoned creatures to be able to get the main character reaction when you cast/sustain the summoned creature (but when you chose to do this, you lose your main reaction to your summoned creature). It mitigates the issue partially, but IMO the ideal was a general minion rule change to allow the character to share the reaction when needed like summoner and eidolon does to be able to use reactions with every minion creature.
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I think trying to insert any but the most basic, self-interested, harm reducing reactions for minions is going to be make for balance problems that probably lead to the blanket ban in the first place. That is why I think it would be important to get the intention in there as opposed to try to arbitrate the potential reactions that might qualify.
Minions are creatures that don’t want to die. All creatures have very basic ways to save themselves from certain life threatening situations that only work as reactions: namely arrest a fall and grab an edge. Minions should count as having one reaction (like any creature) when it is necessary to take a basic reaction to prevent harm to themselves. This is instinctual and does not require them to be commanded.
Text like that is almost implied in the first paragraph of the minion trait, but the fact that”action” is a game term that sometimes includes reactions and some times doesn’t means the second paragraph stating that they have 0 reactions will supersede the “minions take basic actions to defend themselves,” especially as that text is primarily about what they do when not commanded…even though basic defensive reactions would have to happen without command to make any sense.
Which is to say, I think there is still a case to say RAW, minions already can take basic reactions to prevent harm to themselves, because reactions are actions and the second paragraph is about what minions can do when commanded, which I interpret to be the time spent carrying out their commands, not necessarily the whole round in which they have carried out their master’s command. But I also think some clarity about that would greatly help avoid “my animal companion mountain lion got pushed off the side of a cliff without being able to try to stop itself” which is needlessly punitive to players (NPCs riding horses or having a close animal companion are never under the same limitations) and makes no sense.