| theincrediblecuh |
Played DnD5e - new to pf2e. Settled on Sparkling Targe Magus. I liked the idea of "dilemma tanking" via the threat of absurd burst damage. Seems I picked a pretty complicated idea/class to start the game with. Committed at this point - so just interested in making the idea work as optimally as possible. We're playing free archetype, and ancestral paragon. Kingmaker campaign (1-20)
Character is an elf or half elf. Not a fan of beastmaster or champion archetypes for this flavor wise. Psychic interests me the most because I see Imaginary Weapon spellstrike as my "taunt" in a way. I'd also be open to investigator, guardian, bastion, sentry. In fact if I do go psychic i suspect I still add bastion or sentry later regardless.
Is heavy armor necessary? Is it ok to just get it from the armor proficiency feat or is not being able to have mastery of it at later levels a big issue? As an elf - would going nimble elf + fortress shield help make up for the lack of heavy armor potentially, then supplementing psychic with bastion later? Guardian free archetype has potential, but I feel like having an outright taunt sort of ruins the whole idea of damage being the dilemma presented.
Anyway just looking to get some thoughts on this. I'm using pathbuilder and I'm finding the layers of all the different places my spells are coming from to be a bit confusing, but if i take the Psychic dedication, i think there's a fair few ways for me to cheat on action economy, get truestrikes, extra movement, etc. to make it work. Let me know what you think
Sir Belmont the Valiant, II
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A tower shield (I believe you called it 'Fortress Shield') is difficult to use in Pathfinder 2e, in that you have to Raise Shield (1 action) to get +2 AC. Then you get another +2 AC if you take Cover behind it (1 action). As Magus is one of the more intensive action juggling classes, the extra action to Take Cover doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
BotBrain
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Honestly you don't NEED heavy armour, if you hit your dex cap on the medium armour you'll have enough AC for most purposes, espesically with your shield.
Not having mastery of it at later levels is a pretty big issue, especially since you want to be tanking, imo. You'll be down +2 AC which is pretty harsh, so if heavy armour is something you want, sentinel/bastion dedication is a good idea.
Psychic dedication w/ Magus is one of if not the best class/archtype combos out there, for all the reasons you noted, but especially imaginary weapon.
I would also really advise against investigator/guardian, as Sir Belmont said, Magus is incredily action heavy, as you need to be consistently spellstrking, refreshing spellstrike and potentially arcane cascade, and having to add the additional action cost of divise a stratagem or taunting on top is going to squeeze you, especially since you're potentially raising a shield and taking cover.
| theincrediblecuh |
A tower shield (I believe you called it 'Fortress Shield') is difficult to use in Pathfinder 2e, in that you have to Raise Shield (1 action) to get +2 AC. Then you get another +2 AC if you take Cover behind it (1 action). As Magus is one of the more intensive action juggling classes, the extra action to Take Cover doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
Nah i meant the fortress shield:
"Hefty +2
Hardness: 6
Hit Points: 24
Speed Penalty 10 ft.
Price: 20 gp
Bulk: 5
Usage: held in 1 hand
Also known as portable walls, these thick and heavy shields are slightly larger than tower shields. Like tower shields, they’re typically made from wood reinforced with metal, but many are made from larger amounts of metal or even stone. Getting the higher bonus for this shield of +4 AC requires using the Take Cover action while the shield is raised."
Basically leveraging being a fast elf to eat the speed penalty and get another +1 AC.
| theincrediblecuh |
Honestly you don't NEED heavy armour, if you hit your dex cap on the medium armour you'll have enough AC for most purposes, espesically with your shield.
Not having mastery of it at later levels is a pretty big issue, especially since you want to be tanking, imo. You'll be down +2 AC which is pretty harsh, so if heavy armour is something you want, sentinel/bastion dedication is a good idea.
Psychic dedication w/ Magus is one of if not the best class/archtype combos out there, for all the reasons you noted, but especially imaginary weapon.
I would also really advise against investigator/guardian, as Sir Belmont said, Magus is incredily action heavy, as you need to be consistently spellstrking, refreshing spellstrike and potentially arcane cascade, and having to add the additional action cost of divise a stratagem or taunting on top is going to squeeze you, especially since you're potentially raising a shield and taking cover.
Yeah I'm leaning towards psychic, its the coolest from flavor standpoint too. So basically, if I don't go after heavy armor, I need to make sure I am DEX based instead of STR? And yeah I really want to take bastion, but it doesn't give heavy armor proficiency for some reason (annoying). I think psychic/bastion would be ideal.
So its looking like I either go for Dex > Psychic > Bastion
Or STR > Psychic > Sentinel? That seem right? I mean Bastion lvl 10 just blows anything Sentinel would give me out of the water too, really comes down to is quick shield better than heavy armor?
BotBrain
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Yeah I'm leaning towards psychic, its the coolest from flavor standpoint too. So basically, if I don't go after heavy armor, I need to make sure I am DEX based instead of STR? And yeah I really want to take bastion, but it doesn't give heavy armor proficiency for some reason (annoying). I think psychic/bastion would be ideal.
You don't need to be dex based. You could take something with a dex cap of 2 with medium armour and your AC would still be pretty decent.
In your case, i would probably rate quick shield higher than heavy armour because it means you can take reactive strike (or attack of oppertunity, whatever magus calls it) without comprimising your ability to hold melee attackers in position.
| Alkarius |
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Fortress Shield is way too heavy IMO. That, a weapon, and armor, and you're likely overweight. I almost feel the Fortress Shield is best on a monk, but thematically awkward.
I played a ST Magus and it was really durable and fun. Heavy armor did feel necessary to me, so I took the general feat Armor Proficiency to get full plate with the plan of taking Sentinel sometime after lvl 10 and retraining Armor Prof. Bastian I cant recommend enough, for Reactive Shield and Quick Shield Block. And I did take Psychic because IW is bonkers, and extra spell slots for buffs. I usually had a 2 turn rotation. On turns was (Stride or Sure Strike) + Spellstrike, with Reactive Shield or Reactive Strike in my pocket for my reaction. Off turns was Shielded Strike to recharge SS + actions other than Spellstrike: Electric Arc usually, Stride, MAP Strike, cast (psychic) Shield on an ally, etc... and Reactive Strike or Shield Block ready. It gets a little repetitive since a Magus wants to Spellstrike a lot, but you have enough variation and combat flow adaptation to keep it engaging. Focus Point management is something to watch, but even depleted you're still very effective. Arcane Cascade was only used when there was an enemy caster present, the enemy had a weakness I could exploit, or if the encounter allowed turn 1 to be a buff turn for Blur/Heroism/Haste + Cascade. A 1H reach weapon was ideal for me (Breaching Pike, had a Lancer style going on) to go with a Sturdy Shield, as most dmg comes from your SS nova instead of your weapon die, and that reach can save you the occasional Stride or avoid the occasional Reactive Strike.
If you can get your hands on a Tactician's Helm, it was my favorite equipment. Also a Spellstriker Staff can be shifted to a shield boss or spike and attached to your shield, and give you ample amounts of Sure Strikes.
However, as I leveled I began to feel Spellstrike amped IW was a bit too unbalanced for my liking. I dumped Psychic for Wizard. Losing amped Shield hurt a bit, but I still felt powerful, durable, and more thematic with more arcane spells in my book. When you just delete enemies on an amped IW, it can feel great! But when I practically ended a boss encounter in 1 turn I did feel a bit cheesy, so I made the switch.
| gesalt |
You want to either be 0 dex or max dex. Wasting time on +1 or +2 dex just puts you at lower AC than plate while also having lower ref vs damaging effects while also taking those stat investments away from con or wis.
My basic plan for this build would be:
Half elf
+4 str +2 con +2 int +1 wis
01) General training (armor), nimble elf
02) force fang or expansive spellstrike (b route), psychic archetype
03) if your gm allows spell battery to work, natural ambition (familiar), otherwise your choice
04) emergency targe, psi casting
05) gloomseer, darkseer (if the ethnicity requirement doesn't bother you), otherwise your choice
06) psi development, reactive strike
At level 8 you need to determine if you get reactive strike off often enough that you need quick shield block for the bonus reaction or if you want ally block
Assuming that:
08a) bastion archetype, shield warden
09a) multitalented (alchemist)
10a) quick shield block, advanced alchemy
If not:
08b) sentinel archetype, steel skin (skill feat), standby spell
09b) multitalented (alchemist)
10b) mighty bulwark, advanced alchemy
11) elf step
12) expert casting, conflux focus
14) any alch archetype feat, witch dedication
16) basic and expert witch casting
18) conflux wellspring, master casting
20) master casting, supreme spellstrike
What this gets you is IW, 2x 1st-8th rank occult slots from psychic and witch, printing haste potions for your potion pouch to save on some money and make your life less miserable pre-20, and your choice of ally shield block plus bonus reaction or super bulwark plus standby spell for any spell you can use with expansive spellstrike. I only included the ancestry stuff I most recommend, pick whatever you like.
On the bastion route you will need to boost dex at some point to switch to medium armor or sacrifice witch to take sentinel. Personally, I prefer the sentinel route.
Since you're new, here's a short list of general feats:
Fleet
Toughness
Incredible initiative
Canny acumen (late game only)
| Bluemagetim |
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One suggestion.
If you are using a non reach weapon but want to pick expansive spellstrike as a magus pick up the enlarge spell. You can enlarge +arcane cascade for your round one. Now you have reach and can place lines and cones from more advantageous angles instead of just from you forward.
| Tactical Drongo |
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Okay, my view on things as someone who loves to experiment with builds and gamemasters a lot
1) Medium armor is good, light also, if your campaign goes high level, picking up heavy armor with a feat is a misinvestment as heavy gives you +1 ac over medium, -5ft movementspeed but your proficiency lacks behind by -2
1.1) Light armor has the advantage of being cheaper in the early levels and giving a better saving throw, heavy armors can compensate for that but you need an archetype to really use them properly
2) as said before, tower shields and similar are too action intensive (and possibly slow you down), you are going to be action starved anyway and likely have to use your focus spell for shield raising (or at least want to do that as often as possible for the action economy)
Thhe best shield for most characters is the standard steel shield
3) imaginary weapon is arguibly the strongest spell you can regulary use for your spellstrike, in fact is so good that there are people forbidding the archetype for your class wwith houserules and there are rumors of possible spell nerfs
4) Spellstrike is build with attack spells in mind, we do have enough of those but just in case you should check with your gm on how he rules expansive spellstrike in particular, using the spellstrike to deliver a saving throw spell is not quite as effective in the current ruling, but the system has a certain leaning towards those
5) I would advise against the guardian archetype *except* you get specifically the shield raise taunt
the taunt is a great teamwork skill, but as magus you have no need for dozens of alternate options, one or two are good, but you still have cantrips, a shield to raise and other stuff to do, so many players I know try to avoid getting to many extra action options, since we rarely have the actions anyway
| Finoan |
Sir Belmont the Valiant, II wrote:Nah i meant the fortress shield:A tower shield (I believe you called it 'Fortress Shield') is difficult to use in Pathfinder 2e, in that you have to Raise Shield (1 action) to get +2 AC. Then you get another +2 AC if you take Cover behind it (1 action). As Magus is one of the more intensive action juggling classes, the extra action to Take Cover doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
That's actually worse. A standard Tower Shield is always 1 action to raise and 1 action to take cover behind in order to get a better bonus than a regular shield.
The Fortress Shield (which is also a Tower Shield) is 1 action to raise as long as you have a +2 STR bonus. Otherwise it is 2 actions to raise. And it is always still another action to take cover behind in order to get a better bonus than a regular shield.
And that is assuming that your campaign is ignoring Bulk rules.
A normal shield with level-appropriate shield runes would probably be best.
| NielsenE |
I played a tanky sparkling targe magus in a Strength of Thousands campaign. I did go Champion MC however. (Ancient Elf to pick that up, GM allowed it alongside the AP's limited Free-Archetype, but was limited to spending regular class feats on the MC Champion, rather than the FA bonus feats).
Personally, I didn't feel like I was being a useful tank until we reached level 6 and got the champion's reaction to be able to negate some of the incoming damage. (And I think Champion is better than Guardian for Magus based tanks due to action economy).
Prior to 6, it really came down to simply placing myself as the easiest to hit target. There weren't enough long-lasting fights or fights where the opponents new ahead of time who the bursty damage dealers were. So they had no reason to target me, unless I made it easy. This often means you're spending an action to position yourself, an action to raise shield, and then a non-spellstrike in the early rounds. Round 2 spell strike, and raise shield (or shielding strike, but you're wasting the high MAP strike). Round three was often move, shielding strike (to recharge, strike, raised shield) and a skill action or an extra strike. You will be a movement based tank which is tough, until you're hasted.
If you intend to be a primary tank, and not just a once in a while tank, I would plan on going down the champion dedication. You'll need the champion's reaction to create the real dilemma for the opponents. And I would save the heavy armor is worth it for the 1 extra AC, especially on turns you can't get the shield raised.