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Hey everyone,
I’ve been digging into Razmiran lore lately and ran into a question I can’t quite pin down with certainty: Do Razmiran priests genuinely believe in their own divinity and in the supposed godhood of Razmir himself?
On paper, Razmir’s entire nation is built on a lie and plenty of sources make it clear that high-ranking clergy know this. But what I’m curious about is the internal culture of belief among Razmiran’s priesthood:
Do most priests know it’s a hoax, or is that knowledge limited to the top tiers?
Are low-ranking acolytes indoctrinated from the start to truly believe they serve a living god?
How much self-deception exists within the hierarchy? Are there priests who choose to believe because the alternative undermines their identity or power?
And lastly, do some priests genuinely believe they themselves possess divine authority derived from Razmir, even if they don’t consciously buy into his supposed godhood?
There’s a lot of room for interpretation here, especially given how propaganda-heavy and cult-like Razmiran society is, but I’d love to hear how others have handled this in their games or how you read the canon lore.
Looking forward to your thoughts!
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I mean, in the real world there are an unsettling number of people who believe in the divine mission of politicians who don't even profess divine provenance, so I'd believe that this sort of thing happens all the time in Razmiran.
There are assuredly some grifters in the bunch, but it's not 100%.
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Like any large organisation, some are in it for the grift and personal gain, some are true believers, most are probably just going with the flow because even if Razmir isn't a god, he's powerful enough (politically and magically) that functionally there's no difference.
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Like any large organisation, some are in it for the grift and personal gain, some are true believers, most are probably just going with the flow because even if Razmir isn't a god, he's powerful enough (politically and magically) that functionally there's no difference.
That sounds about right. In Golarion, Aroden, Iomedae, Cayden Cailean, Norgorber, Irori, Urgathoa and Nethys all ascended from human(ish?) to god status, so it's not even unbelievable that Razmir could just be the *eighth* person to make the jump. And even if one isn't convinced that he really did, he's still powerful enough that it doesn't matter. Tar-Baphon doesn't claim to be a god, and yet still killed a (demi)god. Geb doesn't claim to be a god, and still raised one up and bound her to his side as his undead queen.
And there's the brainwashing said to happen. I suspect that 'priests' who are a little too openly Doubting Thomas' get brought to Thronestep for some attitude adjusting, and come back full-throated 'I have seen the light! Hallalujah! Have you heard the good word of Razmir?' which leads anyone with a bit more discretion to keep any doubts they have about Razmir's divinity entirely to themselves.
And, bear in mind, not a single person who doubts Razmir's 'divinity' has ever had the gall to walk up to Nethys and ask him to *prove* that he's a god, and not just a ludicrously powerful Archmage... :)
None of the 'big 20' have really provided proof of divinity. to the people of Golarion They have clerics that cast healing spells, but Razmir's got 'priests' that can, in some cases, cast healing spells as well (even if they have class levels in Bard, rather than Cleric...).
And few, if any, folk outside of Razmir's immediate borders, have any idea that Razmir doesn't have clerics, anyway. I live in a world with information about stuff going on across the world at my fingertips, and I have no idea if a dentist certified to operate as such in Indonesia, would count as a licensed dentist in the United States. I doubt someone living in Andoran would have the slightest clue about the ecclesiastical status of 'priests' in an old established nation like Qadira, let alone some little podunk River Kingdom like Razmiran.
I am curious about whether or not there are any survivors of the original ruling family (an heir to the 'Duke of Melcat'), who might find themselves propped up (possibly with their enthusiastic approval, perhaps very much against their will!) to serve as a legitimizing face for a movement to oust Razmir... Or, even if there aren't any such survivors, could an 'heir' be manufactured with some magical chicanery?
This is a world where people opposed to a woman leading Taldor would dig up a grave to find a suitable challenger for her claim...
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I mean, in the real world there are an unsettling number of people who believe in the divine mission of politicians who don't even profess divine provenance, so I'd believe that this sort of thing happens all the time in Razmiran.
There are assuredly some grifters in the bunch, but it's not 100%.
Yeah this is the answer. We find it hard to accept that people can go along with this so readily in fiction because it seems so ridiculous (and anyone with Recognize Spell realizes pretty quickly Razmir's Preists aren't divine at all), but people go along with easily disprovable nonsense in reality all the time.
As they say: "Truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense."
There's no question many people in Razmir's priesthood know he isn't a god. Some of them are in it for themselves and are happy with the grift. Some will try to do the "what is a God, really?" line to try and throw it back on other people to deflect. Some people will just go with it and keep their heads down because that's a lot easier than saying something.
But quite a few will find a way to rationalize the contradictions because they want to believe it. Anything that gets in the way of that can be rationalized away, dismissed, ignored, or just lived with despite the contradictions.
Cognitive Dissonance is incredibly powerful. Just look at reality right now for endless examples.
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I would imagine that a clergy built upon one massive grift would run a wild spectrum. You would have the true believers (mostly confined to the lowest echelons. They believe Razmir is a god and rationalize away any proof to the contrary. and among them there will be those who try to use that faith to help people, and those who use it as justification for their own power-trip. Neither will advance far, but the second will make it slightly higher than the first.
They won't be allowed to advance very far because they are principalled. and as a clever pilot once said, you can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest, but an honest man... you never know what they'll do. That, and on some level, the higher levels of the church just think they are faking it, like them. because who would ever let themselves be guided by faith.
the next tier up will be the sycophantic in the know. the yes-men, who will profess even louder than the true-believers about the divinity of Razmiran. all to advance up the social ladder, giving them little tastes of power and authority. They advance only so far because despite having no scruples, and thus perfect to lead the Razmiri faith, they also have no vision and no cleverness, no ideas of their own.
Then the tops spots would go to the Schemers, and the Self-righteous, dangerously balancing each other out. The schemers, like the sycophants crave power and respect and MORE, that comes from advancement, but they have the brains and wit to know when to speak, when not to, and how to properly descent. They are shameless in how they will push the grift and the indulgences they will encourage their Living God grant.
The Self-Righteous have justified taking part in the farce to themselves as they believe they can twist it to something good, and that the order it gives, though based on a lie, is better than the chaos that would surely ensue if they... oops, Razmir were ever to fall. They believe their thin veneer of justification and moralizing will cover the dark deeds they do to keep their positions of power, and the indulgences they take as rewards.
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"Just because our daily prep differs, doesn't mean our powers aren't coming from Razmir Himself!"
That's if they even know their daily prep differs. Outwardly both types of prep might appear the same since Razmirans likely offer (unnecessary) devotions to Razmir every morning. Followers could think Razmir "works in mysterious ways", bestowing similar spells to Divine ones, but not tainted like Divine spells are.
Which is to say, Razmiran priests might rebuke the concept of "divinity" (as per OP), instead embracing "Razmir-ity"/Occult. "Occult > Divine!"
Sure, there will be those who may have forgotten their prayers only to discover they're as empowered as usual, but they also might attest that to Razmir's faith for their previous dedication. "Won't happen again!"
There are two factors to adjust for: one, we're seeing this objectively, from a meta-POV, rather from how it'd look on the ground. There's a lot to unpack from Razmir's lies before hitting bedrock that belies Razmir's true nature. As noted above, he's still so powerful to most people as to effectively be godly. And two, BITE model/high-control groups can operate on a massive scale, i.e. North Korea. YouTube has videos about North Korean reactions as they disentangle themselves from the web of lies told about outsiders and their dear (essentially divine) leader. As advanced academically as Razmir is, and given the lifespans of some citizens, there's likely a stronger undercurrent knowing the truth, but how much of that is public? It seems the cult hierarchy would attract two of the worst types, the blindly devoted and those faithless wanting to exploit the devoted and the power structure as a whole. Yuk.
I'm reminded of something I've heard several prominent atheists say; that is if they did lack morals as some apologists assert, they wouldn't be playing the atheist role. They'd have become prosperity gospel megapastors or famous ex-atheist converts with a million dollar book. It was because they had morals they didn't exploit the believing masses. Not sure how massive these masses are in Razmir though. How long before such token narratives entrench themselves as truth? (Especially with access to divination magic, outsiders, and Outsiders.)
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I think of it the same way we see grifters claiming magic powers in the real world.
Some believe their own hype, fully.
Others are aware they're lying to some extent, but they believe in the fundemental assumptions of the belief system
And others just want power, and will say and do anything to get it.
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And one more thing to add to discussion is that it's important to remember the difference between what we, the audience, know and what the characters in the game's world would know.
The game's text communicates to us in no uncertain terms that Razmir is a fraud and his priests ape divine power through occult substitutes and trickery. It HAS to, so GMs and players know what kinds of stories Razmir and his church are meant to be used in. If the text were more ambiguous, GMs might draw different conclusions (like "gods are powered by belief Forgotten-Realms-style, so Razmir is trying to get enough people to believe he's a god that the lie becomes reality" or "Razmir himself isn't a real person, his followers just made him up and it's the organization itself that's the villain").
But the average Golarion adventurer isn't going to find out what's going on with Razmir and his church unless they want to investigate, unless they stumble across that thread and decide to pull it. And for the average NPC, if they're not right on Razmiran's doorstep, have even LESS reason to know or even care whether Razmir's claim to Starstone-godhood is true.
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An interesting notion occurred to me that even if someone (PCs) dethrones/kills Razmir, that might not end the cult. Earth has many examples where religious leaders were killed, yet their followers persisted (albeit after losses). Arguably a majority of religions began this way (though never our own favorite one of course).
"Razmir's not dead, he's ascended." "He'll return for us." "His essence has passed on to his prophet." (etc.)
If Razmir's top followers wield enough power on their own, they could hold the organization together, maybe rally under a new prophet, or a new incarnation of Razmir (whether represented by a creature or just concept). Heck, an outside agent might step in (much like in Remington Steele). I'm watching Mr. Robot right now, where most of the story & conflict happens after "solving" the problem; now deal with the aftermath, try to build an actual alternative. Razmir isn't a single-minded cult country though, so other agents might step forward, educated & charismatic. Hopefully for the betterment of their society.
A "kill Razmir" AP might be more interesting if the PCs faced Razmir before the final book (likely the penultimate one since he is 19th+ level with a wealthy country's resources). Who knows, maybe he was only the figurehead for more sinister forces?* Or maybe keeping a country together is a max-level task?
*That might be too similar to the Galt AP though.
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I think the story Paizo is lurching towards is that the original Razmir is already dead, and was already replaced (perhaps several times) with another figurehead pretending to be him.
It's just tricky to tell that story now, since the old trope of "we will bring down this prominent figure by revealing a scandal" is sort of laughable in the modern era.
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The final boss might instead be whatever's behind the country's environmental issues. Whether that's tied to Razmir (or his replacement) trying for apotheosis or to outside (perhaps divine/anti-atheist) forces would be the question. I'm reminded of Skull & Shackles where the climactic fleet battle was vs. Cheliax while the AP finale arose from a separate track.
And Razmir's replacement might in most ways be Razmir. I could see him embedding himself within an artifact or possessing others. Or even already usurped by a council, making Razmir a broader entity (or even a puppet). With all the lies, there are many ways to explore this, the toughest part being the author treading around tropes (as best one can) so as to avoid predictability. This might require flexibility so GMs can tailor the answer in the opposite direction of where players/PCs think the conspiracy suggest. Hmm.
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I think there would be another group of cultists who have realized that Razmir isn't divine yet, but believe that he is getting close to achieving it. These ones know their current powers are a bit of a facade but believe that once he ascends they be getting into his actually-divine hierarchy on the ground floor. Maybe if they're his main servant now they'll even get to be transformed into his divine herald? Sounds sweet. These ones might be the ones Razmir uses for tasks like getting Sun Orchid Elixir or researching the Starstone since they're actually invested in him achieving godhood.
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I agree that even if Razmir were to die, the cult would continue. Look at other organizations in a similar vein in the real world.
I like the idea that the cult leaders pull a Dalai Lama. "Yes Razmir shed his mortal coil, but he was reincarnated in the form of this child who very conveniently was born at the exact moment of Razmir's death. It's a miracle and proof of his divine power!"
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I agree that even if Razmir were to die, the cult would continue. Look at other organizations in a similar vein in the real world.
I like the idea that the cult leaders pull a Dalai Lama. "Yes Razmir shed his mortal coil, but he was reincarnated in the form of this child who very conveniently was born at the exact moment of Razmir's death. It's a miracle and proof of his divine power!"
Also a further proof of his real involvement and proximity in mortal affairs, not to mention absolute compassion, as he choses to live among us again and again instead of retreating to his divine abode as do all those other distant and aloof "deities".