There are two related rules concerns that the community needs official guidance from Paizo to resolve. Both of these rules are ran differently at various tables, and the community cannot agree on the RAI since Player Core contradicts itself on Page 408.
Rule concern 1) Please define the phrase "instance of damage."
This phrase is only used two times, both times on Page 408, once under Weaknesses and once under Resistances. Unfortunately, Paizo has never defined this phrase. The two interpretations that the community uses for Instance of Damage are:
Definition A) A single strike/spell/ability that deals damage deals a single instance of damage. (i.e. a Flaming Longsword that deals 1d8 Slashing + 1d6 Fire is ONE instance)
Definition B) Each damage type dealt by a strike/spell/ability (i.e. a Flaming Longsword that deals 1d8 Slashing + 1d6 Fire is TWO instances)
For normal cases, everyone typically uses definition A, resulting in Weakness/Resistance only being applied one time per strike/spell/ability. The community (and PFS tables) become split when Holy/Unholy traits are brought into the equation, which leads us to the main contradictions we need Errata for.
Rule Concern 2A) How Weakness to Holy/Unholy is calculated against multiple damage types.
Consider a demon with the Unholy trait has a Claws Strike that deals Slashing + Spirit + Poison damage. The demon attacks a PC with Weakness 5 to Unholy. The relevant rule from page 408 says "If more than one weakness would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable weakness value. This usually only happens when a creature is weak to both a type of damage and a material or trait".
Weakness 5 to Unholy is ONE weakness, not "more than one weakness," so technically that rule doesn't even apply. Assuming is does apply though, we need a definition for "Instance of Damage" (See A or B above) to rule how to apply the Unholy Weakness; should it apply one time to the whole Strike, or three times - once for each damage type within the Strike?
The ruling I see most often for the Holy/Unholy Weakness is Definition A. However, the community primarily uses Definition B when dealing with Holy/Unholy Resistances!
Rule Concern 2B) How Resistance to Holy/Unholy is calculated against multiple damage types.
Consider the same Claws strike from the demon described above, hitting a PC with Resistance 5 to Unholy. There are two relevant, contradictory rules under Resistances on page 408, each one lending itself to a different definition of "instance."
The first rule supports Definition B of "instance": "If you have resistance to a type of damage, each time you take that type of damage, reduce the amount of damage you take by the listed number (to a minimum of 0 damage)." In this scenario, the Resistance 5 to Unholy would apply separately to all three damage types the demon deals. This is the same way that "Resistance to All" damage works.
Rule 2 supports Definition A of "instance": "If you have more than one type of resistance that would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable resistance value, as described in weakness." In this scenario, the Resistance 5 to Unholy would only apply one time to the strike.
From what I can tell, the majority of the community uses the Rule 1 / Definition B interpretation for Resistance to Unholy, but uses the Definition A interpretation for Weakness to Unholy.
To fix these rule contradictions, we need errata the defines what an "instance" of damage is (Definition A or Definition B), and reiterates how the Holy/Unholy traits should apply.
Thank you for you time and consideration.
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It's quite obviously definition A. Another rule that would be impacted (to ridiculous degree) by definition B being true is dying. If you're dying 1 and you get hit by a flaming shocking sword that would be 3 instances and bring you to dying 4 (or dying 7 if it was a crit). Who is seriously arguing for definition B? It seems ridiculous.
I agree definition A should be used across the board, but from what I've seen in online discussions, Definition B is favored for Resistances when Holy/Unholy is applied.
Foundry VTT uses this interpretation as well. Here is an image that shows how Foundry applies Definition A for Unholy Weakness and Definition B for Unholy Resistance. Anecdotally, from playing with different groups and participating in online discussions on the topic, this seems to be the most widely applied ruling. I found a GitHub ticket from two years ago that was opened for a PF2e Foundry rule change, but it was closed and disregarded in favor of Definition B.
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Rule concern 1) Please define the phrase "instance of damage."
Bwahahaha! Best of luck with that. I've been asking for that for literally years.
I think they painted themselves into a corner on it. There isn't a consistent definition that can possibly be created that will work 'as intended' in all cases.
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We had it confirmed all the way back in the PF2 playtest that "Definition A" is not correct. And those specific rules didn't change in the release.
The lack of a formal definition DOES cause ambiguities and unaddressed edge cases (and there's a reason this has been one of the most frequently asked questions that Paizo has refused to answer for the last six years), but the different damage types on a Strike being different instances is one part that we do know for sure.
Traits like Holy/Unholy on a Strike (not on a specific damage type) and thaumaturge's Personal Antithesis are some of the most frequent offenders for the lack of a definition to cause issues, but stating that a whole Strike is obviously one instance is basically the only thing that we DO know is wrong.
I thought (maybe because of the clarifications Hammerjack references that it was not A) and have operated that sets of damage with different traits were different instances. But instances of damage could occur at the same time, which is why I wouldn't have taken the approach that taking damage while dying would count as two or three from one source. Different instances are ways of sub-counting your damage, which in the end gets added up after dealing with the appropriate modifiers to it.
So a creature with Resistance: Slashing 5, Fire 5; Weakness: Bludgeoning 5, Holy 5 would have the following happen:
When struck by a flaming longsword for 8hp damage, and 6 fire damage, would take a total of (8-5) + (6-5) or total of 4 HP of damage. After which if they are struck by a Holy Mace for 4hp from the mace with 5hp of holy spirit damage would take a total of (4+5) + (5+5) or 19hp damage. If the holy mace only made the weapon damage holy, not adding a block of spirit damage that was holy, it would have meant they would only take 9hp of damage (losing the5 hp spirit damage from the other instance, and losing the weakness the other instance triggered).
Things like double-slice have you combine damage for purposes of damage instance (affecting weakness and resistance to have them affected collectively) Now, I have to admit, I hadn't considered what would happen if you double-sliced with the flame sword, does that combine both instances within that one weapon, or would it only merge similar type weapons (physical to physical). That does bring up questions I hadn't considered.
But for me I wasn't handling holy differently than other types of damage.
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Also, I'm fairly sure that a creature with the Unholy trait doesn't automatically pass that trait on to its attacks. (Can't find anything in a quick search that says it does.)
There is nothing automatic about the trait passing on, no. It needs to be a specific ability, like how Sanctified Champions apply their Sanctification to their Strikes.
Me everytime someone walks through more than one square of hazardous terrain: is each square an instance of damage, or is one move action through an arbitrarily large number of squares one instance? (I know it's the latter, and why, but I don't feel it's for a good, principled reason.)
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We had it confirmed all the way back in the PF2 playtest that "Definition A" is not correct. And those specific rules didn't change in the release.
...
And we had folk even back at that time politely tell Mark that the rules do NOT match with his explained procedure, and that, at minimum, there is a missing instruction or two. You literally cannot follow the RaW to get to his method without extra rules on what does get chunked into the same "instance" bucket, and what is put into a separate instance of damage.
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This issue of "A was right all along" is further unavoidable when it comes to Alchemist bombs.
After the remaster, Bomber is able to freely select energy type and include metal flakes for targeting weaknesses.
This is a single bomb throw, no runes. This is rather unavoidably all "one instance" of damage, and therefore only the highest weakness should trigger, not both a metal and energy.
Except, if we actually avoid double-think / hypocrisy, it's not so simple. The flaming silver longsword example pretends that the rune's fire being bonus damage is why it's a separate instance from the Strike it's directly empowering.
For that to truly be a "separate instance," then all bonus damage has to be a separate instance.
Meaning, the Alch feat for Expanded Splash, which explicitly adds bonus status damage to the splash, would now trigger weakness independent of the rest of the bomb; it's bonus damage, same qualification as a rune. But we all know that's arbitrary b+$~~@%+, and that bonus damage to a Strike is definitionally adding damage into that Strike's "instance" of damage.
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The "different instance, so double pop weakness" elemental rune was never legit, even back then. Devs can misspeak, or houserule their own way.
Folks just shut down their brains upon hearing a word of dev response, and didn't question it enough at the time.
I'm happy to see that the community is coming around these days.
(And no, Foundry is not an excuse. It'll allow double weakness/resistances to proc even with that single bomb example.)
Wait so resistence is applying multiple times in the image? I am confused because as far as I know weakness 5 unholy with a 2 on the 1d6 spirit damage becomes 2 unholy damage which you add 5 weakness is now 7 but the resistance 5 unholy in the example should be only -2 not -11... That would make resistance grossly overpowered, meaning the 17 should be 15 damage not only 6...Since only the Spirit Damage becomes Unholy, right?
Where is this rule for sanctified Spirit Damage becoming Holy/Unholy?
Dude, you are inventing a rule out of thin air.
There is no rule that says to "instance silo" certain kinds of weakness from any other. There is no text saying that non-damage weaknesses are put into a different instance. It just says that contact procs those kinds of weakness. That's it. It's required instruction, because otherwise those weaknesses would have no way to activate, as "water damage" does not exist.
The only time the text discusses a specific kind of weakness to treat differently is resist/weakness all, which does mean you apply the resist/weakness to each type separately.
Water could essentially trigger both blunt weakness and water weakness.
You are doing so many backflips to justify the old word of dev that you are directly contradicting the text's instruction.
If you have a weakness to something that doesn't normally deal damage, such as water, you take damage equal to the weakness value when touched or affected by it. If more than one weakness would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable weakness value.
Most of the time, non-energy type contact weaknesses are still triggered via attacks or damaging effects. Such as a water blast spell triggering both weakness to cold & water at the same time.
In that circumstance, both do activate, but you still hit the "only the highest" rule, and you do NOT double up on weakness damage. Those sentences are directly next to each other, ffs.
The rules make no exception for contact weaknesses, so none exists.
I am still confused by this thread. So, does resistance still apply multiple times somehow?
We had it confirmed all the way back in the PF2 playtest that "Definition A" is not correct. And those specific rules didn't change in the release.
...
And we had folk even back at that time politely tell Mark that the rules do NOT match with his explained procedure, and that, at minimum, there is a missing instruction or two. You literally cannot follow the RaW to get to his method without extra rules on what does get chunked into the same "instance" bucket, and what is put into a separate instance of damage.
________________
This issue of "A was right all along" is further unavoidable when it comes to Alchemist bombs.
After the remaster, Bomber is able to freely select energy type and include metal flakes for targeting weaknesses.This is a single bomb throw, no runes. This is rather unavoidably all "one instance" of damage, and therefore only the highest weakness should trigger, not both a metal and energy.
Except, if we actually avoid double-think / hypocrisy, it's not so simple. The flaming silver longsword example pretends that the rune's fire being bonus damage is why it's a separate instance from the Strike it's directly empowering.
For that to truly be a "separate instance," then all bonus damage has to be a separate instance.Meaning, the Alch feat for Expanded Splash, which explicitly adds bonus status damage to the splash, would now trigger weakness independent of the rest of the bomb; it's bonus damage, same qualification as a rune. But we all know that's arbitrary b!&~@#&*, and that bonus damage to a Strike is definitionally adding damage into that Strike's "instance" of damage.
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The "different instance, so double pop weakness" elemental rune was never legit, even back then. Devs can misspeak, or houserule their own way.
Folks just shut down their brains upon hearing a word of dev response, and didn't question it...
Almost none of this is correct
I am still confused by this thread. So, does resistance still apply multiple times somehow?
Foundry does stack them by default.
In an AP, the party got ambushed by a mob of foes that dealt hybrid piercing and cold damage.
Everyone else but me had, and activated, their flight during that opening turn.
I instead drank something for phys resist, and already had a cold resist charm on.
It was absurd. I was literally surrounded, with a 9nth foe unable to get into melee with me because it did not have reach. I got grabbed, tripped, and bit many, many times.
They could not properly damage me, and would barely break through the numbing tonic each turn.
Stacking resistances is very easy for players to do, and it really should never be allowed. It genuinely does break the game's math.
Especially considering pf2 has items that grant "resistance to attacks by demons" which would be completely dumb if allowed to stack.
I still think resistance triggering more then once depending on source is the "Too Good To Be True" because I feel like this should be the same at weaknesses. If you got weakness 10 fire and weakness 5 slashing and you do 1d8 Slashing and 1d6 Fire you should trigger both weaknesses but if the creature has resistance 10 slashing and resistance 5 Fire and you deal 1d8 slashing + 1d6 Fire you have a chance, a very large chance to deal 0 damage which feels wrong to me but eh.
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And the biggest problem is that different people won't even agree on what the intended result is in some cases.
Take the example of a Magus with a shortsword who casts Runic Impression to get a Flaming rune on it, drinks an Energy Mutagen (fire), and casts Flame Wisp - then makes a successful attack with that weapon.
So we have:
slashing damage from the sword itself.
Fire damage with the magical trait from the Flaming rune.
Fire damage without the magical trait from the alchemical mutagen.
Fire damage with the magical trait from the Flame Wisp spell effect.
How much of that should be the same instance of damage?
* All of it is one instance of damage?
* Two instances of damage: one instance of slashing damage and one instance of fire damage?
* Two instances of damage: one instance of slashing and fire damage from the sword, rune, and mutagen, but the Flame Wisp is a separate instance of damage because of its narrative description?
* Three instances of damage: one instance of slashing damage, one instance of magical fire damage, and one instance of non-magical fire damage?
* Three instances of damage: one instance of slashing damage, one instance of fire damage from the rune and mutagen combined, and the Flame Wisp is a separate instance of damage because of its description?
* Four instances of damage: all of those are separate?
At this point I am not even asking about what the rules actually say about it . Because I am well aware that the game rules don't specify any one of those ruling options as being more correct than the others.
What is interesting is how each of those rulings interacts with other rules regarding resistances and weaknesses.
If all of the damage is one instance of damage, then that is a good ruling for a creature with multiple weaknesses - only one of the weaknesses would be triggered. It would similarly be good for an attacker if the target has multiple resistances (but not resist all) because only one of the resistances would take effect.
If each damage type is a separate instance of damage, then that is also good for the target with a fire weakness since only one instance of fire damage is present to trigger weakness with. If it is ruled that those fire damage entries are separate instances, then the same attack will trigger a fire weakness multiple times. And the opposite for a creature with fire resistance - they want the ruling that each of those fire damage line items is a separate instance of damage because then their fire resistance would apply to all of them separately.
Bonus damage adds damage into an existing effect/hit. Very clearly adding damage into the same instance. Great for triggering a weakness at all, but does not allow for multi-popping of weaknesses.
Flame Wisp specifies that a wisp follows after the attack to then impact the target. Its damage was set rather low because it's designed around being a separate instance, and would enable one to double up on a fire weakness.
Flame Wisp is not adding damage onto an existing attack, the spell watches and reacts to hits to then send a wisp that does its own damage. There's really not a way to argue this is bonus damage to the Strike. The spell is designed so that when the hit lands, the wisp is still idling, and only once the hit is completed does the wisp begin to fly.
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The line in the sand to look for is if some effect is adding damage onto another existing attack/hit/spell/etc, or if it's generating it's own impact.
Spells like Flame Wisp, where delayed damage is triggered by a Strike, are honestly pretty dang rare.
Instant Minefield may be another point to reference. The spell does split damage, so not allowed to pop both a fire & pierce weakness via a single mine.
But because the mines each create an independent boom triggered by movement, each mine will invoke it's own weakness pop.
If a Large+ creature steps on two at once, it's always up to the GM, but I think it would be fair to let each mine trigger its own weakness despite being chronologically triggered at the same time.
I would consider if multiple weakness are present and a strike has the damage types for more than one, what is the effect on gameplay. Do monsters with multiple weakness have stats and abilities to compensate for interpretation B playing out? If not then maybe interpretation A was intended.
If there is no pattern in how monsters with multiple weaknesses are build then maybe it wasnt planned out the same or properly coordinated by the designers.
I stil think Resistance All is still "To Good To Be True" when it comes to applying multiple times no matter how you look at it possibly. It feels like the Weakness/Resistance rules do not work evenly in both directions which I think feels wrong from a balance point of view. Why can my Resistance 5 (Expect Force) apply to my Flaming Thundering Short-sword three times but If the monster had Weakness 10 sonic, Weakness 5 Fire and Weakness 5 Slashing, it only takes the 10 sonic weakness? How is this even or fair?
I stil think Resistance All is still "To Good To Be True" when it comes to applying multiple times no matter how you look at it possibly.
Resist All is the one case that is explicitly defined in the rules. It's not "too good to be true": it's flat out the rule that it applies to every type of damage you take.
It feels like the Weakness/Resistance rules do not work evenly in both directions which I think feels wrong from a balance point of view. Why can my Resistance 5 (Expect Force) apply to my Flaming Thundering Short-sword three times but If the monster had Weakness 10 sonic, Weakness 5 Fire and Weakness 5 Slashing, it only takes the 10 sonic weakness? How is this even or fair?
I mean, maybe it should? The whole problem is that this stuff isn't well defined and no one really knows how it should work when you apply multiple resists (except resist all) or multiple weaknesses. (fun fact: we also don't know for sure what weakness all does, either.)
If we had a FAQ list, "instances of damage and how resistences/weaknesses work with it" would be the #1 question since 2020.
I think it should work the same way because consistency is good in rules. It's easier to understand if they do the same thing and follow the same rules. So how I think it should work:
- If something is resistant to fire and slashing, both resists apply.
- If something is weak to both fire and slashing, both weaknesses apply.
- If you have a trait like Holy being applied, apply that resist/weakness only once to the entire attack (because the outcomes become absurd if you apply Holy weakness four times when someone uses a flaming corrosive shock weapon).
That's consistent with how resist all works and keeps the two functioning roughly the same way. Is it RAW? I have no idea, lol. But it works and players can understand what the outcome is going to be, so that's good enough for me.
IIRC, that's pretty close to what Foundry is doing. "Foundry does it" also doesn't mean it's RAW, but it does mean any table using Foundry with IWR on is getting that implementation, so it's something of a defacto community standard and if you "do what Foundry does", you'll at least get a consistent outcome with a lot of other tables.
Since Paizo is allergic to explaining things, that's kind of the best we have.
Rule concern 1) Please define the phrase "instance of damage."Bwahahaha! Best of luck with that. I've been asking for that for literally years.
I think they painted themselves into a corner on it. There isn't a consistent definition that can possibly be created that will work 'as intended' in all cases.
Yeah it's absurd that they have left this in this state for so long. I think it's a victim of their unwillingness to do anything except issue official errata.
One of the few things PF1 did better than PF2 is that PF1 had a big FAQ that was willing to explain things and give examples without it having to get into a book as errata. That is what this problem needs: concrete examples where Paizo takes a couple of complex scenarios and tells us what the expected outcome is.
I don't know why they refuse to sort stuff like this out, but it's really unhealthy for the game that six years later we still don't actually know how a core mechanic works, let alone that they've abdicated sorting it out to the Foundry team.
I think the whole thing makes more sense if immunities are instance of damage agnostic, by which I mean they apply to damage types not instances of damage and
An instance of damage is the total damage calculated at the end of step 2 that will go into step 3.
With immunities being applied first based on type not concerned with instances.
After what is left from the instance of damage from step 2 is checked for types determined in step 2.
If were following this logic and using the rules on applying multiple weaknesses on pc core page 408 then everything left from step 2 gets increased as a whole by only the highest value of weakness triggered by types and then the highest value resistance triggered by types.
Whats left goes to step 4.
Immunities feel like the odd factor here since they care about the type of damage not the instance of damage as I have assumed in my example.
In which case maybe immunities should have been set up to apply either as its own step or applied as part of step 2