I'm hoping to get some feedback from people who have experience playing a swash. I can't decide if building a swashbuckler and picking up sorcerer dedication and casting feats is a bad idea or not, it feels like an example of when white room math really doesn't work well. And to be clear, I'm hoping to use both offensive magic (mostly cantrips) and utility, not just utility.
Points against swash/magic dedication:
Swash seems very action starved if doing bravado action -> finisher mostly.
Spell attack/DC's are obviously going to be lower than a caster.
A lot of a swash's power seems to come from their feats, moreso than a lot of martial classes (definitely could be wrong on this one).
Points for swash/magic dedication:
Finisher -> saving throw cantrip, even with lower numbers, seems pretty okay since you can't attack further after a finisher.
Charisma is already an important stat (at least the way I would want to build) and swash has a lot of debuff options to help lower saves and Ac.
Always good to have an always on hand ranged/aoe/energy damage/whatever the player wants to take on hand.
You get a 'free' skill to legendary to make the mandatory magic tradition skill a little less painful.
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Those are the main points, I think. And yeah, I think other classes might do gish a lot better, but that's not really what I want to do for the character. Am I kidding myself or could it actually work well?
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I've played a Swashbuckler with caster benefits, but I've yet to come across a situstion where I want to cast an offensive cantrip (Being a Red Mantis Assassin, my Swashbuckler got basic casting and cantrips for a single feat, which made it more appealing). But there are plenty of utility/buff spells that are handy to have for yourself.
I've played a Swashbuckler with caster benefits, but I've yet to come across a situstion where I want to cast an offensive cantrip (Being a Red Mantis Assassin, my Swashbuckler got basic casting and cantrips for a single feat, which made it more appealing). But there are plenty of utility/buff spells that are handy to have for yourself.
Damn that's what I was worried about. On paper, finisher into save cantrip looks kind of cool, but if you've never had an opportunity come up where you wanted to do that, well that's pretty telling. Thank you for sharing.
The thing is, it is campaign designer and GM dependent.
Swashbuckler has to work pretty hard to get ranged attacks. Thrown weapons work - after a feat or two. You can use a bow with pretty good accuracy, but no damage boosts.
So damage Cantrips can also fill that spot for a ranged weapon when needed.
What becomes GM dependent is on if that is ever needed. If your campaign features primarily enemies charging into the party, the Swashbuckler is going to be happier doing their melee damage dealing thing. They are very good at that. Much better than the chip damage that they would be doing with a ranged weapon or a Cantrip.
But if your campaign features combat setups that involve attacking at range, you might be glad to have a damage Cantrip to throw out so that you don't end up having to sit out a round or three of combat or spending a bunch of actions switching weapons around.
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Yeah, the points you brought up pretty much reflect the difficulties in taking a caster archetype.
The action economy for a Swashbuckler can be pretty tight. You normally want to move, do your panache action and make a finisher. You can combine move and panache with a Tumble Through and then have a third action left, but this is not enough to get an attack spell out. There's also some action compression found (You're Next at early levels, Get Used to Disappointment at the higher levels, some more things in other feats and archetypes) to mitigate that and press out one more action, but generally you'll have a hard time finding the actions to consistently cast an offensive spell after your finisher.
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But if your campaign features combat setups that involve attacking at range, you might be glad to have a damage Cantrip to throw out so that you don't end up having to sit out a round or three of combat or spending a bunch of actions switching weapons around.
It's one action to swap to a ranged weapon and one action to swap back if/when the fight closes to melee, though. It's not that onerous unless you're dual wielding and want to use a ranged weapon that needs two hands.
Considering how slow archetype spellcasting proficiency progression is, there's going to be a bunch of levels where trying to use a cantrip offensively is going to feel really painful due to the abysmal accuracy.
IMO, taking the multiclassed sorcerer archetype with a swashbuckler is something that should be considered only in the following circumstances:
1) The swashbuckler is going to invest heavily in Cha anyway (e.g., Battledancer, Braggart, Fencer, or Wit).
2) As mentioned, use the spells as a ranged option (daze, frostbite, live wire, needle darts, or slashing gust) instead of switching weapons, battlefield control (tangle vine), and/or defense/utility (shield might be useful if the swashbuckler isn't using a buckler or parry weapon; eat fire could be worthwhile if you expect to meet fire-using enemies fairly often; glamorize would be a good pickup for a Battledancer).
3) You probably shouldn't go "all in" on spells from the archetype. Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting (Arcane or Primal to pick up blazing dive, possibly) and maybe Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting is probably sufficient. Many of the swashbuckler class feats can be used much more often than a handful of spells.
Although one benefit of taking the sorcerer archetype is being able to fully use spellhearts. Which can be a plus even if you don't take any archetype feats other than the dedication.
Without free archetype, I don't think a casting archetype is worth considering. Swashbuckler and other skirmisher classes really can't get enough of their own class feats.
With free archetype, you're probably better off going Bard. Fits better thematically, and you're more likely to wind up with one action to spare than two so compositions are really handy. And the bard has skill realted feats a swashbuckler can utilize as well.
Do some of the damage cantrips not have the attack trait? Might be interesting to be able to do damage as a swash after a finisher with a spell lacking the attack trait.
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Damaging cantrips either:
1) require a Fort/Ref/Wis save / no Attack trait (ex Electric Arc)
2) or require a roll vs AC / do have the Attack trait (ex Needle Darts)
As to the whole is it worthwhile for a Swashbuckler to archetype as a caster... I'd say no. I agree with those hwho said (above) that the class is too action intesive.
Before the remaster, I had a Paladin with a Sorcerer dedication and nothing more. He just wanted the two cantrips Shield and Ray of Frost so he could carry a two-handed weapon and still get a shield, and the longer 'Ray' range of 120' meant he didn't have to lug a round a bow.
Do some of the damage cantrips not have the attack trait? Might be interesting to be able to do damage as a swash after a finisher with a spell lacking the attack trait.
That is correct. And something I don't really like about how Swashbuckler's Finisher is defined.
Yes, you are allowed to cast Frostbite after a Finisher.
No, you are not allowed to cast Ignition after a Finisher.
I cannot find any logical explanation for why it was designed that way.
That is a large part of why I was looking into this build, yes. I very much dislike one roll to hit per round type of builds. The thought that I could, if I was set up with panache and standing beside an enemy, do a finisher into save cantrip for a strong round, sounded good to me. But yeah, sounds like it might be a bad idea.
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Do some of the damage cantrips not have the attack trait? Might be interesting to be able to do damage as a swash after a finisher with a spell lacking the attack trait.That is correct. And something I don't really like about how Swashbuckler's Finisher is defined.
Yes, you are allowed to cast Frostbite after a Finisher.
No, you are not allowed to cast Ignition after a Finisher.
I cannot find any logical explanation for why it was designed that way.
I don't think it was designed that way deliberately, it's just a side effect of wanting to stop someone from attacking after a finisher and the Attack trait being the most straightforward way to do it. Working around it via spellcasting archetypes was probably not something they worried about a whole lot because it's feat and action intensive.
Summoner has a similar side effect where you get MAP if you cast Ignition alongside your Eidolon attacking, but casting Electric Arc is fine.
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Do some of the damage cantrips not have the attack trait? Might be interesting to be able to do damage as a swash after a finisher with a spell lacking the attack trait.
There are certainly some cantrips without an attack trait (electric arc, scatter scree and frostbite are all solid options). The big question is how often you'll be able to pivot from finisher to cantrip.
On your turn, you might have to:
- move to an enemy
- do something to gain panache
- do a finisher
You can compress the first two a bit by using Tumble Through; you have a lot of speed and only the space of the enemy is difficult terrain. Or, maybe you got Hasted and already had panache from something that happened last turn/as a reaction.
GMing for a Swashbuckler now, and them ending the turn with Panache does make the next turn awkward especially when stuck with an opponent who doesn't move. I think the idea has legs
If that happens often enough then it could work out yeah. I dunno if I'd want a whole dedication for it - picking up a cantrip with an ancestry feat might be better ROI. On the other hand, just a few spells more can be really helpful to a martial. Jump for example is really handy for getting to enemies on high platforms like a caster or archer.
Overall, when building a swashbuckler, I think it's important to have a good plan for what to do with a dangling last action. You could lean on stuff like Demoralize, or Extravagant Parry. One-action options are a bit easier than cantrips which tend to be two-action. But if it doesn't cost you too much, cantrips could be decent too.
Do some of the damage cantrips not have the attack trait? Might be interesting to be able to do damage as a swash after a finisher with a spell lacking the attack trait.That is correct. And something I don't really like about how Swashbuckler's Finisher is defined.
Yes, you are allowed to cast Frostbite after a Finisher.
No, you are not allowed to cast Ignition after a Finisher.
I cannot find any logical explanation for why it was designed that way.
You and me both.
I'm running a swashbuckler right now and we just hit level 19. Holy cow, the high level swash is pretty brutal. Once the player picks up Illimitable Finisher or whatever that feat is called, I expect their damage to spike again.
They just got the ability where they can apply Confident and Precise Finisher to every finisher and every Opportune Riposte. That is a pretty strong ability.
Then they can do two finishers with one action the way I read it with Precise Finisher damage even on a miss. That's going to get pretty nutty.