Free archetype Sorcerer

[The Total Package]

If i am playing an Oracle and I FA into Sorcerer can I benefit from Blood Magic effects, I wanted to get Explosion of Power at level 16.

[NorrKnekten]

No,

you get trained in skills, the spellist and can later pick up bloodline spells with a feat, but you get no other benefits from the bloodline.

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

The other way around is a lot easier, as the oracle has a number of very powerful feats at low level.

[Claxon]

Yeah, you have to read very carefully what different dedications actually grant you. Many class dedications are actually pretty bad choices.

Now, I'm not saying sorcerer dedication is a bad choice, but if you're only after the bloodline powers, you will be disappointed.

Another example is fighter. If you're looking to improve your weapon proficiency, fighter dedication doesn't do much for you. It will only get you up to expert (and required a level 12 feat to do so). It's pretty terrible if you wanted to get to master or legendary, because you simply can't.

[Errenor]

NorrKnekten wrote:

No,

you get trained in skills, the spellist and can later pick up bloodline spells with a feat, but you get no other benefits from the bloodline.

Guys, Explosion of Power is a feat. It doesn't have any prerequisites. Dedicated sorcerers can take feats and bloodline spells through feats. We know how blood magic effects work. The feats says: "You know the following blood magic effect. Blood Magic—Explosion of Power". So you do. I don't see absolutely any reason to forbid that. Yes, PCs with sorcerer dedication can get their first (?) bloodline effect at the 16th level for a 16th level feat. You don't need any "other benefits from the bloodline".

[shroudb]

Errenor wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

No,

you get trained in skills, the spellist and can later pick up bloodline spells with a feat, but you get no other benefits from the bloodline.

Guys, Explosion of Power is a feat. It doesn't have any prerequisites. Dedicated sorcerers can take feats and bloodline spells through feats. We know how blood magic effects work. The feats says: "You know the following blood magic effect. Blood Magic—Explosion of Power". So you do. I don't see absolutely any reason to forbid that. Yes, PCs with sorcerer dedication can get their first (?) bloodline effect at the 16th level for a 16th level feat. You don't need any "other benefits from the bloodline".

Blood Magic though IS a "benefit from your bloodline" since your Bloodline is where the Blood Magic is described.

So the archetype saying "you don't get other benefits from your bloodline" would exlude getting the feature "blood magic" altogether is my reading.

[Errenor]

shroudb wrote:

Blood Magic though IS a "benefit from your bloodline" since your Bloodline is where the Blood Magic is described.

So the archetype saying "you don't get other benefits from your bloodline" would exlude getting the feature "blood magic" altogether is my reading.

Explosion of Power is not from your bloodline. It's a feat. You can get feats. It doesn't demand anything from you, not even having a bloodline. Blood Magic "Explosion of Power" is not a "benefit from your bloodline", it's a benefit from this feat and this feat only. You get what's written.

Even Evolution feats would work, if you take BASIC SORCERER SPELLCASTING+. Sometimes strangely, because your highest sorcerer spell slot is not which it should normally be for a spellcaster, but otherwise I don't see obstructions.
_________
Funny thing, it could be argued that you can't swap out your "sorcerer's gift" spells (which I absolutely dislike), but dedication sorcerers have no such problems, they can not take those spells in the first place: "add a spell of the appropriate spell rank to your repertoire: a common spell of your bloodline’s tradition, one of your bloodline’s granted spells, or another spell you have learned or discovered"

[HammerJack]

You have to have the Blood Magic feature first to use feats that give an alternate Blood Magic option.

Quote:

Blood Magic Whenever you cast a bloodline spell using a Focus Point or a sorcerous gift spell using a spell slot, you choose one blood magic effect you know to benefit from. You begin play with the benefit listed in your bloodline and can gain others through sorcerer feats.

If the blood magic effect offers a choice, make it before resolving the spell. The blood magic effect occurs after resolving any checks for the spell's initial effects and, against a foe, applies only if the spell is a successful attack or the foe fails its saving throw. If the spell has an area, you must designate yourself or one target in the area when you cast the spell to be the target of the blood magic effect. All references to spell rank refer to the rank of the spell you cast.

Without that ability letting you choose to use a blood magic effect that you know, when you cast a qualifying spell, knowing other blood magic effects (which is what the feat gives you) is meaningless.

It is technically true that you can TAKE the feat, because there is no prerequisite of having Blood Magic. But it doesn't DO anything without Blood Magic.

[Errenor]

HammerJack wrote:

You have to have the Blood Magic feature first to use feats that give an alternate Blood Magic option.

You've just invented that. Where's this coming from? Why?

And the feat does exactly what it says, as I said, we know what "blood magic" is. It's not the first feat in the game which has not all its mechanics explained in itself. Extremely mildly speaking.

And I don't understand why you are so hell-bent to not allow spending 16th level feat on some very conditional 8-level ability. When the logic here is absolutely clear-cut and straightforward.

[Finoan]

Errenor wrote:

HammerJack wrote:

You have to have the Blood Magic feature first to use feats that give an alternate Blood Magic option.

You've just invented that. Where's this coming from? Why?

HammerJack quoted his rules source.

Let me see if I can explain it a bit more clearly.

Blood Magic is a class feature that a base class Sorcerer gets at 1st level.

Blood Magic wrote:

Whenever you cast a bloodline spell using a Focus Point or a sorcerous gift spell using a spell slot, you choose one blood magic effect you know to benefit from. You begin play with the benefit listed in your bloodline and can gain others through sorcerer feats.

It is one that you don't gain from the archetype.

Without that class feature, you can know as many Blood Magic effects as you want. Knowing the effect doesn't give you the ability to use them when you cast a Sorcerer spell.

So while you are technically correct that you can take the feat to learn the Blood Magic effect, that still doesn't give you the Blood Magic class feature that lets you use it.

It is much like the Psychic archetype. The dedication does not give you the Unleash Psyche class feature, and no archetype feat grants it. So you can technically take the Psi Burst feat, but will not be able to use it since the action has the Psyche trait.

[HammerJack]

Errenor wrote:

HammerJack wrote:

You have to have the Blood Magic feature first to use feats that give an alternate Blood Magic option.

You've just invented that. Where's this coming from? Why?

And the feat does exactly what it says, as I said, we know what "blood magic" is. It's not the first feat in the game which has not all its mechanics explained in itself. Extremely mildly speaking.

And I don't understand why you are so hell-bent to not allow spending 16th level feat on some very conditional 8-level ability. When the logic here is absolutely clear-cut and straightforward.

It is coming from the rules of Blood Magic. That is why I quoted them.

The feat does do exactly what it says: makes you know a blood magic effect.

The Blood Magic feature explains what knowing a blood magic effect means.

That the question comes up at a pretty high level for this specific blood magic effect isn't actually relevant, so I don't try to change the meaning to make this work just because it's 16th level. I might houserule an ability to make it better at a table I'm running, but I'm not going to do it in answering a rules question for someone else who isn't at my table.

[Errenor]

I can only say that I don't agree at all. It's not that kind of a feature. Nothing is written that there should be some 'on' switch to use this effect. If you have it - you can use it (and you also need bloodline focus spells for that, I'm not sure taken slot spells from bloodline count as "sorcerous gifts"). You just repeat same things where nothing supports your view.

Finoan wrote:

It is much like the Psychic archetype. The dedication does not give you the Unleash Psyche class feature, and no archetype feat grants it. So you can technically take the Psi Burst feat, but will not be able to use it since the action has the Psyche trait.

And, they are not even close. Because Unleash is the only way to use Psyche actions, and you can't get it. But to use Blood magic you just need bloodline focus spells - and you can get them. There's no Blood Magic trait which says you must have Blood Magic feature from your bloodline, there's no any other restrictive language anywhere.

[shroudb]

Errenor wrote:

I can only say that I don't agree at all. It's not that kind of a feature. Nothing is written that there should be some 'on' switch to use this effect. If you have it - you can use it (and you also need bloodline focus spells for that, I'm not sure taken slot spells from bloodline count as "sorcerous gifts"). You just repeat same things where nothing supports your view.

Finoan wrote:

It is much like the Psychic archetype. The dedication does not give you the Unleash Psyche class feature, and no archetype feat grants it. So you can technically take the Psi Burst feat, but will not be able to use it since the action has the Psyche trait.

And, they are not even close. Because Unleash is the only way to use Psyche actions, and you can't get it. But to use Blood magic you just need bloodline focus spells - and you can get them. There's no Blood Magic trait which says you must have Blood Magic feature from your bloodline, there's no any other restrictive language anywhere.

But Blood Magic is part of your Bloodline, that's where it is listed.

And you specifically do not get anything from that whole section apart from the things the archetype mentions.

So, you getting an alternate blood magic effect, without having a blood magic feature, is what we're saying.

of course, as you say, it could have been clearer (or else there wouldn't be a debate), but imo at least, it's clear enough.

[FlayeSFS]

So, as an actual Sorcerer, if you cast a Bloodline focus spell, or IIRC one of your sorcerous gift spells, you get the Blood Magic effect. If you're an archetype Sorcerer, you don't get the Blood Magic effect EVEN IF you take the feat that gives access to your initial Bloodline focus spell. These two points seem to be the argument one side is making.

Whereas, if I understand Errenor correctly, they are arguing that taking the Bloodline Focus spell feat gives you access to the Blood Magic effect. Do I have that right? Have I summarized this debate properly, or am I missing something critical?

I've always assumed the non-Errenor argument, based on "you don't gain any other abilities from your bloodline," but I'm open to being proved wrong.

[NorrKnekten]

I belive its mostly a case of how an ambigious thing is being read, while there is no feature called "Blood-magic" as it would've been listed in the list of class features.

But the way the bloodmagic entry is read leaves it open to interpretation in wether or not its a benefit of having a bloodline. or if its more akin to a keyword explaining behavior that is a common mechanic for sorcerer.

The Bloodline entry has two scentences for bloodmagic, and your reading will depend on if you consider these conjoined or separate statements; and if separate if the first statement is a reminder and not a direct benefit.

Quote:

Blood Magic Whenever you cast a bloodline spell using a Focus Point or a sorcerous gift spell using a spell slot, you choose one blood magic effect you know to benefit from. You begin play with the benefit listed in your bloodline and can gain others through sorcerer feats.

Hammerjacks and Shroudbs argument looks similar to my own, in my eyes it looks like the intention is that by having a bloodline, get to apply a bloodmagic effect whenever you use another benefit from the bloodline. And you also get a bloodmagic effect to start.

Its ambigious enough that the first scentence can just aswell be a reminder thus making Errenor's reading the RAI, but we just won't know and I would just expect groups to play it either way they like.

[Tridus]

NorrKnekten wrote:

Its ambigious enough that the first scentence can just aswell be a reminder thus making Errenor's reading the RAI, but we just won't know and I would just expect groups to play it either way they like.

Yeah I wouldn't even try to guess the RAI on this one, because this is a weird case where the description of a bloodline stat block itself contains the rule definition of how blood magic works. That's kind of weird. Given that it's listed as a thing under the bloodlines heading and the archetype says "you don't get anything else from the your bloodline", "you don't activate blood magic at all" is a valid way to read this.

If Blood Magic was defined in the class features list the way things usually are, then it wouldn't be much of a debate: since it would be a class feature, the archetype doesn't say it grants it, and done. That might lead to feats you can take that don't work, but that happens sometimes.

but it's not: it's described somewhere else instead, which includes stuff that does apply to the archetype because the archetype still has to be able to parse a bloodline entry. If you ascribe any meaning to that placement, then it can change the meaning of what the archetype gets. aka: "It was put here instead of in the class features so that the archetype would trigger it, even though the archetype doesn't get the listed option from the bloodline" is also a valid way to read this.

But we really don't have a clear indication of intent, because of the very real possibility it was put there for page layout reasons (rather than game mechanics reasons) and thus the location means nothing.

So, yeah. Anyone trying to claim RAI on this one is likely projecting their own interpretation onto what the book says, because what the book says is really not cut and dry in this case. It's not a case like PC2's Champion Archetype which didn't get the Champion's Aura but explicitly got access to all the reactions that require it to function. Figuring out what was intended there was a lot easier (ditto with something infamous like Arcane Cascade).

This is going to be an "ask your GM" situation, but I will say I think Errenor's case is reasonable enough that I'd have to stop and think about it if it came up at my table.

[Errenor]

Well, I admit that in this case I adhere to the maximal permissibility. But I don't think it's just the RAI, as I was saying. It's also RAW (with an interpretation) when the general principle of the game is "you get what's written". Yes, when you take the dedication, "you don't get anything else", but you need explicit requirements (or maybe implicit but obvious like in the case of psychic) or prohibition for it to matter at 16th level when you can take the feat. They do it some way or the other for other things when they want to.