| Sysryke |
Hopefully that's clear enough.
I know dragons are cool, iconic, and the actual creatures are generally quite powerful. I get they're the big bad monster grand-daddies of the original game. But, is the name or image worth so much, that the mechanics have to be gimped?
Most reviews I read of dragon themed or powered options for PC's are almost always underpowered, prohibitively expensive in trade, or limited to the point of near uselessness.
Does anyone get to become a dragon that feels like a dragon? That's on par with other party members? Equivalent to other members of one's class?
Alternatively, do any dragon companions truly scale well to pets or features they replace? Are breath weapons truly so mighty that 5-day is a near mythic capstone?
Going a bit more extreme, outside of possession shenanigans, is there anyway to ever become a Colossal size dragon?
I'm not trying to build anything right now. Just curious. Thanks all :)
| Phoebus Alexandros |
I know dragons are cool, iconic, and the actual creatures are generally quite powerful. I get they're the big bad monster grand-daddies of the original game. But, is the name or image worth so much, that the mechanics have to be gimped?
The thing is, we're talking about subjective opinions here. A Bloodrager with the Draconic bloodline can take on the form a large chromatic or metallic dragon. The +6 size bonus to Strength, +4 size bonus to Constitution, and +6 natural armor bonus almost certainly boost such a character's Strength, Constitution, and AC above those of a CR15 size huge adult gold dragon. You get 80% of the breath weapon, aren't nearly as fast while flying but much more maneuverable, and have to rely on spells to gain some of the protections dragons enjoy (others are out of reach until 20th level).
Is that character punished? I don't think so, but you may feel otherwise.
Most reviews I read of dragon themed or powered options for PC's are almost always underpowered, prohibitively expensive in trade, or limited to the point of near uselessness.
I guess what I would ask if whether that reflects the reviews you've read or your own opinion of the actual archetypes, class features, etc., out there.
| Melkiador |
Bloodrager into dragon disciple PRC is a little more dragon-like and not a bad combination. Really, sorcerer into dragon disciple isn’t bad, but comes with a near requirement to take all of the prestigious spellcaster feats.
The dragon companions are typically underpowered for combat, though the dragon familiars are good little helpers.
| Sysryke |
Sysryke wrote:I know dragons are cool, iconic, and the actual creatures are generally quite powerful. I get they're the big bad monster grand-daddies of the original game. But, is the name or image worth so much, that the mechanics have to be gimped?The thing is, we're talking about subjective opinions here. A Bloodrager with the Draconic bloodline can take on the form a large chromatic or metallic dragon. The +6 size bonus to Strength, +4 size bonus to Constitution, and +6 natural armor bonus almost certainly boost such a character's Strength, Constitution, and AC above those of a CR15 size huge adult gold dragon. You get 80% of the breath weapon, aren't nearly as fast while flying but much more maneuverable, and have to rely on spells to gain some of the protections dragons enjoy (others are out of reach until 20th level).
Is that character punished? I don't think so, but you may feel otherwise.
Quote:Most reviews I read of dragon themed or powered options for PC's are almost always underpowered, prohibitively expensive in trade, or limited to the point of near uselessness.I guess what I would ask if whether that reflects the reviews you've read or your own opinion of the actual archetypes, class features, etc., out there.
Reviews I've read. I don't know about all the different dragon options out there, but most I've come across in guides or reviews are usually rated quite poorly. Drake companions and Dragon Shifters come to mind immediately. Also, many options for breathe weapons seem to cap at about 3 uses per day (rarely 5). When comparing this to other blaster types, it seems a bit punitive in comparison. But, that's why I made this thread, I'm asking about draconic options that are good. I didn't know about the Bloodrager one, for instance.
| Sysryke |
Are you comparing the character to other character or to actual dragons? If you are comparing the character to other characters, there are numerous dragon themed options that are decent. If you are comparing it to actual dragons of course the character will seem underpowered.
Either.
On the one hand, as I said above, the breathe weapons gains feel weak compared to other blaster options. Draconic Sorcerers are generally considered good for blasters, but that seems to be more about the energy/damage boosts than any other dragon traits. Most other dragon archetypes I've seen seem to be compared in disfavor to others in the same class.
But, more generally, I've always wondered a bit why high level shape shifting type characters aren't able to become fully powered versions of the creatures they can become, like dragons. When you're high enough level to surpass a creature's CR, shouldn't you be able to just be that creature? Or is my understanding of the theory not matching the actual mechanics at those levels?
Taja the Barbarian
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But, more generally, I've always wondered a bit why high level shape shifting type characters aren't able to become fully powered versions of the creatures they can become, like dragons. When you're high enough level to surpass a creature's CR, shouldn't you be able to just be that creature? Or is my understanding of the theory not matching the actual mechanics at those levels?
Because that's been done in the past and it didn't work out well...
Past the early levels in D&D3.0, a caster could match a martial build in melee combat with a handful of spell and/or class buffs, leading players to ask 'why play a fighter when I could play a CoDZilla* instead?' Each evolution of the game since then has been dialing the casters back so they can't easily fill every role in a party at the same time.
*CoD being 'Cleric or Druid' who both had a strong chassis and powerful buffs that kinda made the fighter obsolete.
A fundamental item you are missing is that CR is not based on a single character's power but rather against a whole party of characters for just a single encounter. An NPC dragon's breath weapon is balanced against getting one or two uses before it dies or flees, while a PC Dragon's breath weapon needs to be balanced against being used once or twice per encounter.
Throw in the fact that the PC doesn't actually lose their other abilities (casters still have their spell slots) and shapeshifting spells/abilities become an overpowering option really quickly...
| Azothath |
it is an issue of Game Balance stemming from the mechanics.
There's the dragon type. Also kobolds vs chromatic/metallic dragons. It's both thematic and an issue of CRs (those pesky mechanics).
If you want to model it using the mechanics then of course there will be throttling it down from CR6-9 to a PC race at CR0.
Unfortunately DnD3 ECL got totally dumped/ignored in PF1. It is a complex issue that requires a case by case scaling and costs.
We do have the sorcerer's draconic bloodline.
It's simply unfortunate that the class is 0.5BAB as that makes most of it ineffective.
| Azothath |
In a twist, due to OGL spells of course, a caster can become a dragon through Magic Jar spell. Sure there are some trade offs but it is as close to 'real' as PCs get (before some weirdo capstone that'll never see play).
The 'early on' nerfs to polymorphing hit Shapechange spell and really made polymorphing less abusive & less attractive. It killed polymorphing to multiattack.
| Phoebus Alexandros |
Reviews I've read.
I would urge you to read the source material yourself. Failing that, limit yourself to guides and reviews written by people who actually tried out the concepts in question. A lot of times, people are just offering subjective, hypothetical opinions, without having actually played a class, archetype, etc.
Drake companions ...
This falls under the game balance aspect that others have brought up already. Just as a PC won't get everything a dragon gets because they would then have all that AND everything else their class gives them (in the hypothetical draconic bloodline bloodrager's case, that includes 10 feats, spells, and the core class features as well), a full-on Drake as a companion would break the game. It would be almost like having two PCs--see discussions re: the Leadership feat for the inherent challenges it poses to a GM.
... and Dragon Shifters come to mind immediately.
The Dragonblood Shifter is an odd case in that it fails (IMHO) not so much in not making the PC a full-on Dragon (which, again, would pose a game balance issue) but in not being balanced against other full BAB classes. It's thematically very cool, but it doesn't really pay off (again, IMHO) until 14th level--when you get access to Form of the Dragon II. But so much of this game comes down to the numerical modifiers you get to add to your rolls... and I'm not sure that what the Dragonblood Shifter gets by that point (plus scent, energy resistance, and a +4 bonus to saves against sleep and paralysis effects) doesn't really stack up to what a 14th level Fighter could have--never mind what a Dragon does.
| Dragonchess Player |
One of the "better" ways (IMO) to realize "be[ing] a dragon" (as a baseline PC, instead of playing as a monster PC with class levels) is to jump through a few hoops via multi-classing and prestige classes to get both spells and combat ability:
1) [barbarian or paladin] 2/sorcerer (Draconic) 3/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 10/sorcerer +1 for BAB +17 and spell progression as a 16th level sorcerer (8th-level spells for access to form of the dragon III);
2) fighter 1/arcanist (likely blood arcanist, but not required; Powerful Change from brown fur transmuter might also be something to look at) 4/skald (spell warrior for Enhance Weapons weapon song)* 1/dragon disciple (advance arcanist spellcasting) 4/eldritch knight 10 ends up with BAB +16 and spell progression as a 16th level arcanist; a bit less BAB, but the arcanist can learn more spells (spellbook) and switch the ones prepared each day;
3) fighter 1/wizard (likely Transmutation/Shapechange school) 4/skald (spell warrior) 1/dragon disciple (advance wizard spellcasting) 4/eldritch knight 10 for BAB +16 and spell progression as a 16th level wizard. If you want to jump through more hoops to get Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster, you can increase wizard spell progression to 17th for 9th-level spells.
*- note, the requirement for the dragon disciple PrC is "ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation" (emphasis mine), not just spontaneous casting slots, and "an arcanist must prepare her spells ahead of time."
| glass |
I am, accidentally, playing a full-on dragon right now in Curse of the Crimson Throne, specifically a very young Gold Dragon named Swiftgleam. The "accidentally" part is because Swiftgleam started as a Cohort to my original character. But I thought (and the GM agreed) that a whole freaking dragon for a single feat was OP. Swiftgleam was more fun, so I kept her and retired the original PC.
We are using the 3.5 rules for powerful species, but with the revised Level Adjustments they have hashed out over at GitP. Which means Swiftgleam has 10 Dragon HD, and LA of +0, and four class levels (about to be 5 - I need to level her up).
I have been playing her as Large, but I just checked the table to see when she would became Colossal, and I think she should actually be Medium at "Very Young" - I need to figure out how to fix that. Either way, she is not going to be Colossal until well after the campaign is over.
| glass |
Quoting myself because the edit window is closed....
I have been playing her as Large, but I just checked the table to see when she would became Colossal, and I think she should actually be Medium at "Very Young" - I need to figure out how to fix that.
Since her Large size has been significant, and her exact age has not been really, I have suggested to the GM that I rejig things to make her Young rather than Very Young. It will cost her two levels of sorcerer, but she effectively gets one back since Young is when her built-in casting kicks in. And since I was about to level her up anyway, she can get the other one back at 15th level.
The GM has not replied to my email yet, but I am fairly confident he will agree with me that that is the best route forward.
One slight side effect of the realisation is that it does cast doubt on my suggestion upthread to use GitP LAs. I have started a thread over there to talk about whether the differences should actually make any difference.