Taking Basic Kata Twice as a Free archetype dedication.


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


Can you take Basic Kata twice as a Free archetype dedication.

I.e
Free Archetype - Monk lvl 2 = Dedication
Free Archetype - Monk lvl 4 = Qi Spell - Qi Rush
Free Archetype - Monk lvl 4 = Qi Spell - Inner Upheaval

Back in 1st edition was possible however not sure in 2nd edition, or whether its just an oversight in the rules


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You can't take Basic Kata twice since it doesn't say it can be taken multiple times, but you can just take Advanced Kata to get a 1st-level monk feat.

However, in the Remaster, you can't technically take Qi Spells twice either since it doesn't say it can be. This is likely an oversight on Paizo's part, and I'd personally allow it to be taken multiple times.


I don't think any of the "basic maneuver" type dedication feats say you can take it multiple times, but I'm pretty sure you can. Considering you need to take at least two feats to "complete" the multiclass before taking another it seems unlikely that you would be forced to take the advanced version.


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Regarding taking Basic Kata twice (or any of the other initial feat gaining archetype feats), I wouldn't allow it. The Advanced version is a strict upgrade. Everything that Basic Kata can do, Advanced Kata can do also. So just take Advanced Kata.

The only scenario where that is not available is an edge case if you are playing with Free Archetype and are allowed to fill your standard class feats with archetype feats also (which is standard, though not universally allowed). You could take both your level 4 free archetype feat and your level 4 class feat as Basic Kata to buy your way out of the archetype two levels earlier. IMHO, that doesn't feel balanced right. If you can't normally buy your way out of the archetype that early, then you can't try to loophole your way out of it early either.

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As for taking Qi Spell twice, I also think that this is an oversight. It isn't technically available to take twice for different spells, but I would allow it anyway.

Dark Archive

You could take ki strike or ki rush since they weren't technically overwritten by remaster. But a better way, if you qualify, is to take student of perfection and then jalmeri heavenseeker, which gets you both by L4.


Yeah, I suppose that technically the Advanced feats call out that you can take them multiple times, and that would enable access to multiple low level feats whereas the base version only allow for level 1 or 2 feats.

And on a standard character this works out fine, because you won't have so many feats to spend that there is a problem. You can't take most dedications until level 2, the basic feat until level 4, and the advanced till level 6.

Where you run into issues, is if you're using free archetype and you want a class dedication as your archetype....you could theoretically choose to spend your base feat and free archetype feats on the dedication and run into an issue with not being able to pick up the base feat twice. I suspect that it's not a big deal to let a character select the base version twice to avoid that issue. Although I might insist (as someone else pointed out) that the player cannot take another archetype or dedication until level 8 (the earliest a standard character would be able to get a second archetype/dedication). So it works great it you really want a lot of feats from your dedication/archetype, but not to get you a new dedication/archetype.


Claxon wrote:

I don't think any of the "basic maneuver" type dedication feats say you can take it multiple times, but I'm pretty sure you can. Considering you need to take at least two feats to "complete" the multiclass before taking another it seems unlikely that you would be forced to take the advanced version.

I don't like it either but its clearly how its intended. All the "Advanced" feats are 6th level feat, so at that level they are effectively the same as the "Basic" feat but with the caveat that they can be taken multiple times. This way the force you to wait to at least 6th level if you want to dip out of an archetype and makes archetypes like exemplar (which people often argue has a strong dedication) to become worse options because you then have to waste 2 more feats into it.


I'm a little confused when people say "dip out" at 6th level.

I want to make sure I understand things correctly.

The earliest you could take almost all dedications is at level 2 (there are a few that require you to take them at character creation but those aren't the "default" rules). After taking the dedication feat, you require 2 more feats from that archetype/dedication before you could select another.

Basic feat is 4th level. Advanced feat (which can be taken multiple times) is at 6th level. The earliest one could normally take another dedication would be 8th level.


I would take that to mean the art of building, especially with FA, to fit the feats in early to get out of the AT earlier. Usually to grab another AT asap, likely to fit more ATs in then you could otherwise or to prioritize certain feats later on.


Yeah, that is what I am understanding it to be as well. 'dip out' is a shorthand way to say that you pay off the archetype dedication and be able to take another archetype dedication.

Taking a dedication at level 1 instead of level 2 doesn't allow getting a second archetype any sooner. No archetypes have feats other than their dedication at level 2. All that using those options to get a dedication early does is cause problems with Free Archetype character builds.

Personally, I don't go so far as to put a level limit on when your next archetype can be gotten, or even restrict your class feats in a Free Archetype build to not allow your Archetype feats.

The result is that with Free Archetype you can buy your way out of many Archetypes at 4th level by spending your 4th level Class feat on an Archetype feat - but you are going to be limited to the other feats that are available at 4th level from the archetype. Things like Exemplar Resiliency, rather than taking Basic Glory a second time for a different Exemplar Class feat. The most notable buff that this gives is that Spellcasting Class archetypes like Magus and Oracle will let you get two different ones of: Class feat, Basic Spellcasting, or Focus Spell.


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Finoan wrote:
No archetypes have feats other than their dedication at level 2.

That's not true.

Aldori Duelist has Dueling Acumen, a skill feat, that's 2nd, meaning that they can finish it at 4th level without needing free archetype.

Curse Maelstrom has Familiar Oddities as a 2nd level skill feat.

Herbalist has Fresh Ingredients as a 2nd level skill feat.

Mind Smith has Malleable Movement as a 2nd level skill feat.

Martial Artist has Powder Punch Stance as a 2nd level feat.

Red Mantis Assassin has Twin Feint as a 2nd level feat.

Tattooed Historian has Agent of All Holds as a 2nd level feat.

Trick Driver has Express Driver as a 2nd level skill feat.

Finoan wrote:
The result is that with Free Archetype you can buy your way out of many Archetypes at 4th level by spending your 4th level Class feat on an Archetype feat

Several don't even need free archetype: skill feats 2nd to 4th allow it too. In just the A's:

Alter Ego has a 3rd level skill feat, Archaeologist and Artillerist has a 4th level skill feat.


I meant to dip out after 6th level.

But anyways, there's a ton of archetypes that allow you to dip out earlier too.


graystone wrote:
Finoan wrote:
No archetypes have feats other than their dedication at level 2.

That's not true.

Aldori Duelist has Dueling Acumen, a skill feat, that's 2nd, meaning that they can finish it at 4th level without needing free archetype.

Curse Maelstrom has Familiar Oddities as a 2nd level skill feat.

Herbalist has Fresh Ingredients as a 2nd level skill feat.

Mind Smith has Malleable Movement as a 2nd level skill feat.

Martial Artist has Powder Punch Stance as a 2nd level feat.

Red Mantis Assassin has Twin Feint as a 2nd level feat.

Tattooed Historian has Agent of All Holds as a 2nd level feat.

Trick Driver has Express Driver as a 2nd level skill feat.

Finoan wrote:
The result is that with Free Archetype you can buy your way out of many Archetypes at 4th level by spending your 4th level Class feat on an Archetype feat

Several don't even need free archetype: skill feats 2nd to 4th allow it too. In just the A's:

Alter Ego has a 3rd level skill feat, Archaeologist and Artillerist has a 4th level skill feat.

Okay, what Finoan said about archetypes not having feats at 2nd level is wrong, but if you're not playing free archetype does that even matter?

Without free archetype most characters have no way of selecting two class feats at 2nd level. I think there is probably a few ways of getting multiple class feats at 2nd level but I honestly don't know them off the top of my head.

Edit: Wait, I just made the connection. Skill feats. Even though it comes from a dedication/archetype you can use skill feats to pick up those dedication feats with the skill tag, allowing you an earlier exit.

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