Casual Question: why aren't things like Prophecies of Kalistrade and Whispering Way covenants?

[R3st8]

You would think there are enough undead in the Whispering Way to generate a covenant, and if the prophecies can succeed in turning people into gold, wouldn’t that also be enough power?

Just asking out of curiosity really.

[Finoan]

Covenants wrote:

While a pantheon is much like a business agreement that mortals may make between each other, a covenant is closer to an everlasting bond between friends who share a deep connection. While any one god may join into a pantheon with another regardless of their personal credo, in the search of completing a common goal, or even simply to further their own goals in the moment, a covenant is only made up of those who share the same views in one way or another. Covenants require more attention, more power, and more intention than their counterparts.

Whispering Way wrote:

The Whispering Way claims no founder, prophet, or divine muse; the Way merely is and exists as a realization to be grasped by those intelligent, realistic, insightful, and ambitious enough to fathom it.

I don't think the problem is insufficient members or a lack of power.

[Claxon]

Yeah, the issue is that the whispering way isn't really a "divine power" or a "real religion".

[Ascalaphus]

I think Pathfinder never fully committed to the "mortals believing in gods is what makes them gods" style of cosmology. D&D and Terry Pratchett went heavily in for that.

Pathfinder keeps it a bit more open-ended. They lean more into the "it's mysterious why someone becomes a god, and there might be multiple ways" style.

So, just because there's a lot of mortals (or undead...) in a faction that have a system of religious practice, doesn't have to mean anything is going to happen.

But it's also not carved in stone that it couldn't. The nice thing about Pathfinder being a bit coy about what "the rules" are is that you could have a bad guy trying to become a god by running a religion, and as adventurers you can't be too certain that it won't work and there's nothing to worry about.

Some people seem to have become gods through having a certain mental state;
* Nethys used magic to achieve omniscience and went a big crazy but also became a god.
* Irori achieved mental perfection and self-actualization and became a god. So did his cousin Gruhastra.
* Arazni is... complicated.
* Milani was a minor saint who became a full deity after Aroden died, perhaps due to sheer motivation

So you know, it could happen. Maybe if Razmir gets enough worshippers that'll boost his confidence to the point that he becomes a real deity.

[Claxon]

I think James Jacob went on record once saying that divine power did not rely on mortals for continued power, but said a large enough group of mortals with belief in someone or something didn't preclude that becoming a deity, and that such a situation could be enough to give rise to a new deity.

[Maya Coleman]

This thread feels very accurately like General Discussion, but it as marked as in the wrong forum. Can someone else weigh in on why that might be so I can accurately asses? If you think it's already in the right place like I'm inclined to feel, let me know that as well! We encourage when our community asks questions!

[Ascalaphus]

I suppose it could go into the Lost Omens Campaign Setting forum instead, but it doesn't feel egregious here IMO.

[R3st8]

Claxon wrote:

I think James Jacob went on record once saying that divine power did not rely on mortals for continued power, but said a large enough group of mortals with belief in someone or something didn't preclude that becoming a deity, and that such a situation could be enough to give rise to a new deity.

I see. I was just wondering what it would be like to have a champion powered by the Kalistrade or a priest of the Whispering Way, etc. It reminds me of those adventurers where some false idol, worshiped by people, gained a tiny spark of divinity. It would be fun to be a paladin or priest of a non-evil idol, like cheering for an underdog team that you want to help reach the top.

To be honest, though, I think it’s hilarious and interesting when there are settings where faith can grant divinity to things, and even abstract ideals and philosophies can become gods that are either insane or incomprehensible to humans because of how focused they are on the particular worldview that created them.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

I kind of feel like a Champion of the Whispering Way would look just like a Cleric of the Whispering Way--dedicated to Urgathoa, Zura, and/or Kabriri, etc.

The Prophecies, on the other hand... that could be interesting, although I get the sense that the power in the prophecies is Occult rather than Divine (for whatever that means)

[QuidEst]

I'll also chime in to say that followers of the Prophecies having a ritual that does something is different from the Prophecies of Kalistrade itself being that powerful.

I don't think you can just get a bunch of people (living or undead) together to make a covenant- elementals and elemental spirits are shown as participating, but that's alongside their respective planes themselves.

Lots of people getting together and believing in something that isn't a god tends to get you occult power rather than divine. Might be a good Thaumaturge angle?

[Claxon]

R3st8 wrote:

Claxon wrote:

I think James Jacob went on record once saying that divine power did not rely on mortals for continued power, but said a large enough group of mortals with belief in someone or something didn't preclude that becoming a deity, and that such a situation could be enough to give rise to a new deity.

I see. I was just wondering what it would be like to have a champion powered by the Kalistrade or a priest of the Whispering Way, etc. It reminds me of those adventurers where some false idol, worshiped by people, gained a tiny spark of divinity. It would be fun to be a paladin or priest of a non-evil idol, like cheering for an underdog team that you want to help reach the top.

To be honest, though, I think it’s hilarious and interesting when there are settings where faith can grant divinity to things, and even abstract ideals and philosophies can become gods that are either insane or incomprehensible to humans because of how focused they are on the particular worldview that created them.

In PF1, it was possible to create a "philosophic deity", heck it was written right into the cleric class description as possible (but it did say to work with your GM on it). I think in the Golarion specific setting, it wasn't possible but I can't recall for sure.

The covenants of PF2 embody this concept though, and it's not unreasonable to say something akin to the Whispering Way exists as a Covenant of Undeath. Although how it would be meaningfully differ from worshipping Urgathoa is a good question.

[Zoken44]

I didn't think the Whispering Way was a religion, just a group loyal to Tar-Baphon, and eager to grant him more power. am I mistaken there?

And as for the Prophets of Callistrade I think the issue there is philosophical. They don't believe in doing something for nothing, so the idea of having clerics or champions who have power without actively paying for it, would be anathema on it's own.

[R3st8]

Claxon wrote:

In PF1, it was possible to create a "philosophic deity", heck it was written right into the cleric class description as possible (but it did say to work with your GM on it). I think in the Golarion specific setting, it wasn't possible but I can't recall for sure.

The covenants of PF2 embody this concept though, and it's not unreasonable to say something akin to the Whispering Way exists as a Covenant of Undeath. Although how it would be meaningfully differ from worshipping Urgathoa is a good question.

Having the option to worship a concept would also be fun. I guess the closest thing is an oracle. Maybe it’s because, just like alignment, people have many different interpretations of things.

For example, some may hear "a god of war" and think of a bloodthirsty berserker, a calm elderly tactician, or even a knight-like god obsessed with strength and honor as opposed to subterfuge. Having gods as people makes them good characters, but from a purely gameplay point of view, it can be quite limiting because you have to search for a god that matches a specific interpretation and study the entire lore to make sure you didn’t misinterpret it.

Of course, one could just play very superficially and look only at the anathemas. But if it’s going to be that shallow, why not just be a priest of Life or a priest of War instead? Honestly, I never liked the concept of anathemas, they feel like a seed of conflict because people end up arguing about interpretations and minutiae. It’s just an annoyance, in my opinion.

Maybe I should make a thread talking about anathemas and the like.

[Claxon]

We already have threads of anathemas, and honestly anathema are much better than the old argument of "well, this is a neutral deity with a focus on x, y,z....do they care if you do this X really evil/good thing?"

Anathema, though there are ones that can start arguments, are much clearer than the old system was.

[Ajaxius]

Zoken44 wrote:

I didn't think the Whispering Way was a religion, just a group loyal to Tar-Baphon, and eager to grant him more power. am I mistaken there?

If my experience as a player from our Carrion Crown campaign is correct, then you are mistaken, but not by much.

You're right that the Whispering Way is not really a religion, but it's not a collection of Tar-Baphon's lackeys either. It's more of a social club of necromancy-aligned people across the gamut of Golarion's societies, and Tar-Baphon just happens to be one of their very prominent members who they'd like to continue seeing around.

[Eldritch Yodel]

The Way predates Baphon even, it's just that by being sort of their biggest baddest member over he kinda co-opted himself into being the head of the philosophy, but it's entirely possible to be a follower without directly caring aboot Tar-Baphon.

[The Raven Black]

According to Pathfinderwiki, "The Whispering Way is one of the oldest active organizations on Golarion, its origins stretching back to the Age of Darkness."

I thought I read somewhere that it originally came from Eox, but maybe this is because of its similarities with "The Song of Silence, also called the Great Change and the Undying, is the Eoxian art, philosophy, and practice of lichdom, which its undead people consider to be the key of their existence and revere in an almost religious manner. "