A number of threads about the Animist have claimed that it is good at blasting. I don't see it for more than 1 encounter a day, which kind of feels like the animists thing to me, you have a ton of flexibility that isn't going to last very long or hold up to difficult encounters, but its flexibility works well for filling a role that will particularly shine in a specific situation.
This got me thinking that a number of old ideas about blasting might be ready to revisit and rethink as some basic elements of casting and limits of spells have changed.
People say Divine spell list is now good for blasting...I can't rate it in the top half of traditions for blasting, but it might have gotten better than occultism, and it is good for specific kinds of campaigns with lots of Undead and/or outsiders that are opposed to your sanctification.
Spell attack roll spells are much harder to have in your back pocket for boss fights.
Arcane sorcerers exist. Are they over powered as blasters, has anyone seen it?
I have some math to do to demonstrate some basic principles of blasting, and a lot spiel to write about how the most important thing to figure out is what kind of campaign you'll be playing in and how length of encounters, encounter difficulty, and likelihood of collapsing encounters changes everything about what kind of damage spells are going to be most effective in your play experience, but I don't have time for those tonight. I am curious what questions, concerns or ideas people have about blasting in this remastered and beyond cycle of PF2 design and balance?
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Here's what the remaster and remastered classes have added to blasting:
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This should be fun.
For blasting, I rate spell lists as follows:
1. Arcane
2. Primal
3. Occult/Divine: They are kind of the same, but with different limitations and energy types.
Is the arcane sorc over-powered? No. The wizard is underpowered. That's the real problem.
For me the blaster tier list of traditions is definitely:
(for general campaigns)
1. Arcane
2. Primal
and then any other you are not building a blaster, you are building a caster who will occasionally want to be able to blast. Occultism is generally the better list than Divine generally for casters, and I think that is a known fact since almost ever divine caster gets a handful of extra spells to cast and the occult ones only ever get additional spells to cast when they are things like the oscillating wave psychic who should really just have its own bespoke list instead of being an occult caster anyway.
The main class psychic is badly in need of a pretty hefty remaster, it is a class built for a game that doesn't exist anymore.
The divine list gaining spirit damage options instead of alignment damage ones is good for the divine list, but not a power boost in comparison to other lists. The fact that you generally target people's spirit with fortitude saves instead of will saves is a narrative blunder in my opinion, and it is a major set back for targeting creatures that are not undead or outsiders.
Casting spirit blast against giants is a comically bad idea, for example. Many of them will have almost 30 ft of reach and reactive strike, and have higher than high fort saves that make it more likely you'll hurt yourself trying to cast a spell like that then you'll hurt your opponent, especially if single target spells are what you are trying to cast. An appropriate ranked force barrage will almost always out damage targeting a giant's fort save, although targeting their reflex saves can wildly outdamage a force barrage, and this is true for the vast majority of dragons, and large beasts and animals as well.
Where the divine list has reflex targeting spells, they tend to do significantly less damage than primal/arcane spells that target reflex, unless the enemy is sanctified in someway or undead. It is an intentional weakness of the tradition that has not gone away.
I intend to look at the math comparing a rank 7 execute cast with an earth's bile 3rd action and a rank 7 disintegrate cast with a sure strike against a number of different targets that make sense to target with such a spell (so creatures from levels 13 to 16 with various defenses) as soon as I can get the time.
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The divine list gaining spirit damage options instead of alignment damage ones is good for the divine list, but not a power boost in comparison to other lists. The fact that you generally target people's spirit with fortitude saves instead of will saves is a narrative blunder in my opinion, and it is a major set back for targeting creatures that are not undead or outsiders.
Going from dealing damage to only a few groups of creatures to damaging nearly any creature without running into resistances or immunity is a massive power boost, and a point of power other traditions do not access as easily. You can feel however you like about the narrative, that has no bearing on the fact that spirit damage is one of the most reliable damage types in the game. Triggering sanctification here is no longer a weakness when you don't do it, it's a bonus.
Casting spirit blast against giants is a comically bad idea, for example. Many of them will have almost 30 ft of reach and reactive strike, and have higher than high fort saves that make it more likely you'll hurt yourself trying to cast a spell like that then you'll hurt your opponent, especially if single target spells are what you are trying to cast.
Having looked at all 17 listed giants, here are my findings:
So I'd say targeting a giant's Fortitude from 30 feet away is not actually that bad an idea. In general, I get the impression that many of the claims here are not really informed by facts, and that this thread's OP wasn't really a genuine attempt discussion so much as a manifesto.
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The Sorcerer got massively buffed for blasting: getting a buffed version of Dangerous Sorcery for free in addition to better starting focus spells, including the arcane Sorcerer's accuracy buff, has effectively given the class the tools to blast to maximum effect without needing to pick specific build options to get started.
Accuracy buff?
Accuracy buff?
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Accuracy buff?Ancestral Memories.
Oooookay. Imperial, not Arcane.
Poor poor Arcane Draconic bloodline.
Spirit blast is a rank 6 spell. You gain access at level 11. It’s single target. You aren’t going to use it effectively against an enemy lower than 11th level. Personally, when I run remastered accuracy tests against creatures, I try to avoid pre-remastered creatures as well. I was going to use the rune giant for my math, since execute was put forth first and level 13 vs a level 16 creature feels about right. The rune giant is unholy, but that’s not likely to matter for the spells being compared, but benefits divine casters much more than arcane.
The Oni add a group of giants that are more like outsiders than giants and are pretty weak to the Divine list, but probably don’t fit many people’s classic definition of fantasy giants.
For Dragons, I was thinking of infernal as it is pretty close to the classic enemy dragon. It is weak to holy, but gets a boost to save vs divine, so it seems like that was an intentional balance point. Adamantine was an option but the level break made it feel less like a tough solo creature for a level 13 caster.
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Spirit blast is a rank 6 spell. You gain access at level 11. It’s single target. You aren’t going to use it effectively against an enemy lower than 11th level.
I don't think this attempt at rebuttal makes a whole lot of sense: the vast majority of these giants are still within the range of creatures you could encounter at 11th level, but also you appear to have forgotten about divine wrath, a potent 4th-rank, divine-exclusive blasting spell that will work against all of these enemies and from 120 feet away (not that you need the extra range, because literally none of these giants have a 30-foot reach). It's also incidentally great for setting up more blasting thanks to its sickened condition.
The Oni add a group of giants that are more like outsiders than giants and are pretty weak to the Divine list, but probably don’t fit many people’s classic definition of fantasy giants.
Correct, which is why I did not shift the goalposts and stuck purely to the monster family you listed, which was enough to prove that the data does not support your claims.
For Dragons, I was thinking of infernal as it is pretty close to the classic enemy dragon. It is weak to holy, but gets a boost to save vs divine, so it seems like that was an intentional balance point. Adamantine was an option but the level break made it feel less like a tough solo creature for a level 13 caster.
Divine dragons have a boost to their saves against divine magic in the same way the arcane dragons have a boost to saves against arcane magic, occult dragons have a boost to saves against occult magic, and primal dragons have a boost to saves against primal magic. This isn't some general balancing point against divine, this is tradition-based dragons having tradition-specific defenses. As it so happens, and if we really are committing to just the remaster, dragons were reworked to have much lower Fort saves in general: Conspirator, Empyreal, Fortune, Mirage, and Omen dragons consistently have Fort saves that are moderate or below, and in many cases it's their weakest save. Even the Empyreal dragon's bonus against divine brings their Fort only a point above moderate, so all in all, divine is exceptionally good for blasting the remastered dragons.
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For me the blaster tier list of traditions is definitely:
(for general campaigns)1. Arcane
2. Primaland then any other you are not building a blaster, you are building a caster who will occasionally want to be able to blast. Occultism is generally the better list than Divine generally for casters, and I think that is a known fact since almost ever divine caster gets a handful of extra spells to cast and the occult ones only ever get additional spells to cast when they are things like the oscillating wave psychic who should really just have its own bespoke list instead of being an occult caster anyway.
The main class psychic is badly in need of a pretty hefty remaster, it is a class built for a game that doesn't exist anymore.
The divine list gaining spirit damage options instead of alignment damage ones is good for the divine list, but not a power boost in comparison to other lists. The fact that you generally target people's spirit with fortitude saves instead of will saves is a narrative blunder in my opinion, and it is a major set back for targeting creatures that are not undead or outsiders.
Casting spirit blast against giants is a comically bad idea, for example. Many of them will have almost 30 ft of reach and reactive strike, and have higher than high fort saves that make it more likely you'll hurt yourself trying to cast a spell like that then you'll hurt your opponent, especially if single target spells are what you are trying to cast. An appropriate ranked force barrage will almost always out damage targeting a giant's fort save, although targeting their reflex saves can wildly outdamage a force barrage, and this is true for the vast majority of dragons, and large beasts and animals as well.
Where the divine list has reflex targeting spells, they tend to do significantly less damage than primal/arcane spells that target reflex, unless the enemy is sanctified in someway or undead. It is an intentional weakness of the tradition that has not gone away.
I intend to look at the...
I wouldn't put Divine blasting so low. Some of the divine blasts have built in advantages like only hitting enemies, so you can drop it right on top of your location and be fine. They also have some nice riders.
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Accuracy buff?Ancestral Memories.Oooookay. Imperial, not Arcane.
Poor poor Arcane Draconic bloodline.
So talking about blasting, draconic sorcerers actually have it pretty good. I'm really enjoying the focus spells;
- the wings are just a very good fly speed, nice if you need it, or just another focus point in the tank- the claws are pretty solid damage
- the breath weapon is the real winner though. Damage is comparable to a fireball, but this is a focus spell so it auto-heightens and you can do it throughout the day.
And in the case of the arcane draconic sorcerer: repeatable Force blast in a decently big cone. Not bad at all.
On top of that, solid bloodline spells too.
Accuracy buff?Ancestral Memories.Oooookay. Imperial, not Arcane.
Poor poor Arcane Draconic bloodline.So talking about blasting, draconic sorcerers actually have it pretty good. I'm really enjoying the focus spells;
- the wings are just a very good fly speed, nice if you need it, or just another focus point in the tank
- the claws are pretty solid damage
- the breath weapon is the real winner though. Damage is comparable to a fireball, but this is a focus spell so it auto-heightens and you can do it throughout the day.And in the case of the arcane draconic sorcerer: repeatable Force blast in a decently big cone. Not bad at all.
On top of that, solid bloodline spells too.
Yeah, I was about to point out the same. In terms of DPR, Elemental wins. In terms of accuracy, Imperial. But the Draconic bloodline wins in terms of throughput throughout the day, can have a force damage breath weapon and has good bloodline spells, including a very good blast with Howling Blizzard.
Spirit blast is a rank 6 spell. You gain access at level 11. It’s single target. You aren’t going to use it effectively against an enemy lower than 11th level.I don't think this attempt at rebuttal makes a whole lot of sense: the vast majority of these giants are still within the range of creatures you could encounter at 11th level, but also you appear to have forgotten about divine wrath, a potent 4th-rank, divine-exclusive blasting spell that will work against all of these enemies and from 120 feet away (not that you need the extra range, because literally none of these giants have a 30-foot reach). It's also incidentally great for setting up more blasting thanks to its sickened condition.
The Oni add a group of giants that are more like outsiders than giants and are pretty weak to the Divine list, but probably don’t fit many people’s classic definition of fantasy giants.Correct, which is why I did not shift the goalposts and stuck purely to the monster family you listed, which was enough to prove that the data does not support your claims.
For Dragons, I was thinking of infernal as it is pretty close to the classic enemy dragon. It is weak to holy, but gets a boost to save vs divine, so it seems like that was an intentional balance point. Adamantine was an option but the level break made it feel less like a tough solo creature for a level 13 caster.Divine dragons have a boost to their saves against divine magic in the same way the arcane dragons have a boost to saves against arcane magic, occult dragons have a boost to saves against occult magic, and primal dragons have a boost to saves against primal magic. This isn't some general balancing point against divine, this is tradition-based dragons having tradition-specific defenses. As it so happens, and if we really are committing to just the remaster, dragons were reworked to have much lower Fort saves in general: Conspirator, Empyreal, Fortune, Mirage, and...
Then instead of me guessing, pick any divine blasting spell you wish, pick a Monster Core or later creature that is 2 to 3 levels above the level needed to cast that spell, and I will compare a best case animist blaster casting your chosen divine blast spell with some various blasting options from the arcane list. We will give your animist a whole round, so we will add in earth's bile to the animist blaster and then the arcane blaster will get one action to improve their blast as well.
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Some Remaster changes of note:
1. Spirit damage made blasting for divine more viable. Still not as good as arcane or primal, but better.
2. Imperial Sorcerer Ancestral Memories is a game changing spell for the arcane sorcerer and blasting. Dropping a save by up to 3 up to three times a battle with no save for one action is amazing.
3. Draconic Bloodline level 1 focus spells is pretty nice for blasting now. Can hit up to two targets for 10d8 and 10d4.
4. Not Remaster, but the Harrow bloodline has some nice focus spells.
5. Sorcerous potency sorcerer only now.
6. Decent divine blasting starts at level 4 with Divine Wrath then moves up to Divine Immolation and Divine Decree mixed in with the usual void and vitality damaging spells.
7. Oracle is now a pretty great blaster. It uses the divine list, but you can pick mysteries that give good blasting spells. You also get Divine Access at level 11 as a class feature which lets you dip into deity blasting spells. You can also get a decent blasting focus domain spell. You get some innate decent blasting focus spells in some mysteries like Tempest or Flames. Then toss in Foretell Harm which works off the curse resource for double extra level damage and you're looking at some real nice blasting power.
I would even go so far to say the new Oracle is one of the most powerful and versatile casters in the game now with immense casting resources.
It may lack the unique feel of the old oracle mysteries, but it's overall power is top tier.
8. You've seen the animist discussions. It looks like you can make a good blaster with it and Blue Frog had some good results with Earth's Bile. From what I've seen the apparitions don't really provide a lot of the top tier blasting spells and the separate slots are a pain to track. Main blasting vessel spell is Earth's Bile.
One thing I will say: if you can pick good blasting Apparitions, Apparitions Quickening is definitely powerful. Quicken multiple times per day is better than any other caster can do.
9. I'm sure you've seen what they've done to the wizard with curriculums. Feels worse than before in my opinion. I've revamped the wizard for our group, so we don't even use the PF2 wizard as written. We made it a spontaneous caster with 4 slots with Spell Substitution for free. Doesn't make the wizard very interesting, but it is more competitive with these changes.
10. Cleric has way better feats, but not for blasting really unless you count Inviolable which is is a nasty feat that does damage if you hit the cleric, possibly with the holy trait. A cleric can just stand their taking hits from outsiders healing themselves and do tons of damage.
11. Sorc got this new feat called Explosion of Power. This feat is brutal for blasting when combined with Anoint Ally or if you don't mind standing close to the battle. Blow off any bloodline spell or bloodline focus spell, do 1d6 damage per level of the spell in a 5 foot emanation. If you get this set up on a martial, it does additional brutal damage.
Sorc may not be overpowered, but they are hands down the best blaster in the game now with Sorcerous Potency no longer poachable, Ancestral Memories, and Explosion of Power. You can set up some real powerful blasting.
One thing I will say: if you can pick good blasting Apparitions, Apparitions Quickening is definitely powerful. Quicken multiple times per day is better than any other caster can do.
I agree with most of what you said in this post, but I wanted to draw attention to this in particular, because this was actually a concern I brought up during the playtest. If there is ever a second apparition that offers as good a blasting option as Earth's Bile, then I actually do think the Animist breaks. I was curious to see how close the two new apparitions got, but it is pretty clear that the solution is just going to be that Paizo never publishes a second blasting option. It is not how I would have done it, but at this point it seems like there is nothing else they will do about it.
I agree with most of what you said in this post, but I wanted to draw attention to this in particular, because this was actually a concern I brought up during the playtest. If there is ever a second apparition that offers as good a blasting option as Earth's Bile, then I actually do think the Animist breaks. I was curious to see how close the two new apparitions got, but it is pretty clear that the solution is just going to be that Paizo never publishes a second blasting option. It is not how I would have done it, but at this point it seems like there is nothing else they will do about it.
One thing I will say: if you can pick good blasting Apparitions, Apparitions Quickening is definitely powerful. Quicken multiple times per day is better than any other caster can do.
What do you mean? You can choose up to four apparitions. They are all signature spells. Though they don't have best blasting options, they do have some good ones like fireball and phantasmal calamity and probably a few others I don't use a lot that you can quicken blast three times per day with Channeler's Stance for a sorc like damage boost.
Apparition Quickening works with all apparition spells. You get 36 of them that end up as a sig spells. Big problem is you have very few apparition slots. So with the 2 slots lower limitation, you could for example do a 9 and 7 fireball, then an 8 and 6 fireball, then another 8 6 fireball. That's where you would top out versus 9 and 7 for most casters prior to getting a 10 level slot.
Once they get 10 level they could do 10 and 8, 9 and 7, then 8 and 6 at most. That would be pretty good.
I agree with most of what you said in this post, but I wanted to draw attention to this in particular, because this was actually a concern I brought up during the playtest. If there is ever a second apparition that offers as good a blasting option as Earth's Bile, then I actually do think the Animist breaks. I was curious to see how close the two new apparitions got, but it is pretty clear that the solution is just going to be that Paizo never publishes a second blasting option. It is not how I would have done it, but at this point it seems like there is nothing else they will do about it.
One thing I will say: if you can pick good blasting Apparitions, Apparitions Quickening is definitely powerful. Quicken multiple times per day is better than any other caster can do.What do you mean? You can choose up to four apparitions. They are all signature spells. Though they don't have best blasting options, they do have some good ones like fireball and phantasmal calamity and probably a few others I don't use a lot that you can quicken blast three times per day with Channeler's Stance for a sorc like damage boost.
Apparition Quickening works with all apparition spells. You get 36 of them that end up as a sig spells. Big problem is you have very few apparition slots. So with the 2 slots lower limitation, you could for example do a 9 and 7 fireball, then an 8 and 6 fireball, then another 8 6 fireball. That's where you would top out versus 9 and 7 for most casters prior to getting a 10 level slot.
Once they get 10 level they could do 10 and 8, 9 and 7, then 8 and 6 at most. That would be pretty good.
sorry, I was talking about vessel spells from apparitions. There is only one blasting vessel spell. A second one of those has extreme exploitability for a blaster animist, but it seems like the plan is just not to make one.
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That's an interesting thread and here's my opinion:
1 - Primal
2 - Divine
3 - Arcane
4 - Occult
Before jumping at me, hear me through.
Most campaigns at higher levels get more and more unholy opponents - fiends, undeads, evil dragons, champions or clerics of evil deities. In this case, some spells like holy light (best scaling spell in the whole game), holy cascade, sunburst and the like are the clear winners.
When you're not fighting undead, then the best blasting spells are things like fireball at low levels, chain lightning, eclipse burst, execute and the like.
So Primal got it all. It has the best spells against fiends, and the staple spells against the rest - which is why I rate it first. Holy light, execute, eclipse burst, chain lightning, it's hard to go wrong with primal. It's compounded by the fact that elemental sorcerer has a very agressive bloodline effect and focus spell.
Divine is way better against fiends, a bit worse against regular opponents (it still has eclipse burst or execute, though). So, in a regular campaign, it kind of creeps up. Dealing 10% less damage 66% of the time and 30% more damage 33% of the time is a fair deal to me (those numbers are fabricated to explain my point, don't throw feces at me please). It's even better in campaigns with a big number of undeads and/or fiends, of course. And, most of the time, it's got a way to get those coveted staple spells anyway (hello divine access, blessed blood, demonic bloodline...).
Arcane is worse against fiends, because it has no specific spells and has to use the same as always. It has most of the staple spells, like fireball, chain lightning, eclipse burst, so it's consistent. It lacks execute, though. I rate it a tad lower than divine, but it can be the other way round in a campaign with little or no unholy opponents.
Occult is a bit of an odd duck. It has a few occult-only gems, like Phantom pain who's the best single target blast in the game for a loooong time. But it doesn't have any of the "best" AOE blasting spells, it lacks fireball, chain lighting, eclipse burst, and most of his blasts have some kind of debuff component. Phantasmagoria, for instance, is a great spell in itself - but won't win any dps race.
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I think Divine Wrath is pretty spectacular and on its own elevates the divine list;
- Spirit damage is a solid damage type
- Sanctified means with fiends etc, even when they make the save, they still take full weakness damage
- The sickened doesn't depend on it being heightened, and takes enemies work to get rid of. Compared to rank 3 Fear, rank 4 Divine Wrath stacks up fine just as a debuff.
- It only targets enemies. Unlike a fireball, you can just drop it wherever. This is really handy for catching enemies that are currently flanking your allies.
It's one of the few blasting spells that remains good at low rank even when you're higher rank, for those fights where you don't need to commit top rank slots but don't want to plod along with cantrips.
I totally agree and I love Divine Wrath so much so that I miss it whenever I don’t play divine ^^
I didn’t mention it because the thread was specifically about blasting and, although the rider and friendly aspect is great, it’s not very impressive damage-wise.
So I looked at the math of an Animist and an arcane sorcerer encountering an Adult Mirage Dragon at level 13 and a Diabolic Dragon at level 15. At least for dragons, these really are the worst case scenarios for one of each caster. The Mirage Dragon has a pretty average reflex save, but with the +2 to saves vs Arcane Magic, it is a pretty difficult foe for the arcane sorcerer to target. The Diabolic Dragon is down right brutal for the Animist and is pretty much not worth targeting with a fort targeting save (that gets a +2 for divine magic), and the Earth’s Bile is half damage.
I did a number of different spell scenarios but will only talk about the most favorable for each class. If you want to look at my notes and math you can find them here
The Adult Mirage Dragon has 225 hp and the Diabolic Dragon has 285 for thinking about the effectiveness of blasting.
The 11th level Animist cast Spirit Blast and Earth’s Bile. No other action considerations are possible since the point of this test is about blasting and if you miss a round, especially the first one, of using your damage options, you are going to fall way, way behind. This also means assuming that the Dragon is within 30 ft of the Animist at the start of the Animist’s turn, which is incredibly improbable (unless maybe you have a commander in your party, something Animists are going to love), but we’re just really looking at numbers. On average the spirit blast is going to do 39.2 points of damage to the dragon and the Earth’s Bile will do 19.5. That is a pretty respectable 58.7 average DPR the dragon. 4 animists casting this same round at the Dragon are pretty likely to defeat a level +2 creature in one round. That is impressive.
The 11th level Sorcerer’s best bet is ancestral memories and a rank 6 Thunder Strike. Chain Lightning is very close to the same at rank 6 but is 1 less point of damage. A lot of sorcerers would probably have Chain Lighting instead, but a pure blaster is going to have the best single target damage spell on hand and have it a signature spell. The average damage for the sorcerer per round with Thunder Strike is 39. That means it is pretty much going to 4 sorcerers a round and a half to blast the Mirage Dragon out (about 6 sorcerer rounds to 4 for the Animist). The Animist is definitely better off against a creature that gets bonuses to saves vs Arcane magic.
The Level 13 Animist really struggles against the Diabolic Dragon. Somewhat surprisingly (since the dragon only takes half the base damage from the spell) Holy Light is far and away the best spell for the Animist to use against the dragon. If the Dragon is off guard, and the Animist goes with Holy light and Earth’s Bile, so still 30ft range, the average damage is 32.95 per round (but 39 if the party can make the creature off guard to the Animist). Execute would have only done 29.75. At 32.95, the Animist is at about 9 rounds to bring down the Diabolic Dragon, so that is 2 rounds and then some with 4 animists and the Animists wouldn’t have 2 top divine slots to cast Holy Light from.
The Level 13 Sorcerer is again going to be best off going with Ancestral Memories and Thunder Strike. That is 52 points of damage per round. That ends up being about 6 Sorcerer rounds to defeat the Dragon, or a round and a half for 4 sorcerers. Even better, the sorcerers have no problem casting 2 top slot spells against a solo boss.
My reflections: When the Animist gets an ideal target, they are going to be capable of effectively blasting once, maybe two times a day, even exceeding a pure blaster class…as long as the target really is ideal. Against a non-ideal target, the Animist really should not even try to go the blasting route and just support allies when possible. It is cool that the Animist can play this flexible role so easily, but the Arcane sorcerer can be pretty flexible too, and is really still capable of blasting through difficult enemies if they go all in on being a blaster.
My reflections: When the Animist gets an ideal target, they are going to be capable of effectively blasting once, maybe two times a day, even exceeding a pure blaster class…as long as the target really is ideal. Against a non-ideal target, the Animist really should not even try to go the blasting route and just support allies when possible. It is cool that the Animist can play this flexible role so easily, but the Arcane sorcerer can be pretty flexible too, and is really still capable of blasting through difficult enemies if they go all in on being a blaster.
The analysis you've just posted is flawed on a number of levels:
Under normal circumstances, if someone were to post such a flawed analysis out of the blue, I would give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they tried their best while making numerous mistakes and questionable assumptions. However, this particular comparison comes from a user who has spent the last several weeks trying to argue that the divine list is the worst for blasting, that the Animist can't blast, and so by repeatedly making false claims even after they were disproven. Thus, it is my opinion that this piece isn't an innocently flawed analysis, but propaganda, made for the specific purpose of trying to satisfy a pre-assumed conclusion with no regards for truth or intellectual honesty.
As with all propaganda, however, the truth can often be read in-between the lines: applying this here, what becomes apparent is that the Animist, by design an ultra-generalist, is able to rival and even outperform one of the most powerful specialized blaster classes in the game at blasting. This is without using any of the potent force multipliers at their disposal either, and even in the worst case scenario their blasting isn't very far behind. Even more broadly, and despite its best efforts, I think this analysis unwittingly proves that the divine list does indeed provide some fantastic blasting options past the low levels.
I think that Unicore undervalues divine blasting, but also doesn't seem quite so familiar with all the divine classes that have the ability to add great blasting options to their options.
When you look at the class chassis, only the wizard and magus are limited to the arcane list alone with no native class feats to expand their spell list to poach spells from other list.
Nearly every divine caster can poach spells as part of the class features. Cleric has spells from deities. Oracle has spells from deities, mysteries, and Crossblood Evolution type of feat. Animist has apparition spells which draw from other lists. Divine sorcs have spell lists that mix in a few non-divine spells and a feat that allows them to poach from other lists.
I think a Divine witch might be the only one stuck with their base spell lists. It sure is odd that the two intel-based 6 hit point casters are the main classes stuck with a single spell list they can draw from. Witch is locked in once they pick. Wizard is stuck with divine.
Though the base divine list seems limited for blasting, the divine list when combined with nearly every divine class has the ability to add quality blasting spells from other spell lists in addition to the improved options on the divine list.
That's why I think Unicore is heavily underselling divine blasting by looking narrowly at the divine list rather than looking at the overall capabilities of all the classes accessing the divine list.
You're making a mistake with Earth's Bile. It heightens at +2 rank, so would only deal an average 15 (before persistent) at level 11 and 20 at level 13.
Your save calculations are also a bit off, e.g. when the Mirage dragon succeeds their Fort save on an 8, that comes out to 5% crit fail (1), 30% fail (2-7), 50% success (8-17), 15% crit success (18-20) instead of your numbers which are shifted by one.
Thank you very much for catching that. It was the chart I was using that was off and I went back through and fixed it all, in that previous link.
The new, fixed numbers for each case are:
1a: level 11 Animist vs Mirage Dragon - Spirit Blast + Earth’s Bile = 48.2
1c: level 11 Imperial Sorcerer vs Mirage Dragon - Thunder Strike + Ancestral Memories = 36
2a: level 13 Animist vs Diabolic Dragon - Execute + Earth’s Bile = 26
1b: level 13 Sorcerer vs Diabolic Dragon - Thunder Strike + Ancestral Memories = 49
2c: level 13 Animist vs Diabolic Dragon - Holy Light + Earth’s Bile = 29.2 (35.25 if the dragon is off guard)
With the Mirage Dragon at 225 HP
The level 11 Animist probably about 5 turns (or 1 and a fourth round of 4 animists) to beat the level 13 Mirage Dragon (4.6 turns means 5 since the creature is probably still alive after 4).
The level 11 Imperial Sorcerer needs 7 turns (or 1 and three-fourths rounds of 4 sorcerers) to beat the level 13 Mirage Dragon. (6.25 turns means 7 for the same reason, you always have to round up)
The level 13 Animist probably needs 10 turns to beat the Diabolic Dragon, so still more than 2 rounds (with 4 animists), and not possible with the number of animist spell slots.
The level 13 Imperial Sorcerer probably needs 6 turns to beat the Diabolic Dragon.
Additionally, related to the OP topic, something about the Remaster that has really hurt the arcane list if a game is played with no legacy content possible, is that spell attack roll spells are the secret weapon against higher level boss monsters, and the removal of almost all of them from spell slots (and not cantrips or focus spells) except for Holy Light (which stays on Primal as well) and Chilling Darkness (divine only) really sets arcane blasters back. It especially hurts against targets like the new dragons that get such large bonuses to save against specific disciplines, which is why a spell like Holy Light, which loses half its damage, is still one of the best for targeting a Diabolic Dragon who's saves are rather bonkers.
Thunderstrike is not a terrible spell, but for raw damage, Shocking Grasp was the higher level solo creature blast champion, especially with the ability to pair with little tricks like spectral hand cast as a prebuff.
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I am not going to remove the thread since it's still early, and I have faith in all of you to work on the tone a bit here! Things are getting a little heated, and I get that. You're passionate about the game! That being said, disagreeing is not inherently rude. Try talking about the rules and not each other.
I don't think the above defenses of the flawed analysis really hold for a number of reasons:
All of which is to say: not only is this analysis quite seriously flawed, I feel it actually paints the opposite of its intended picture: my original claim was merely that the Animist was among the best blasters, and that the divine list was good for blasting. What the above suggests is that the Animist is capable of outperforming even the strongest blasters around, and so with just one out of four impermanent subclasses. It also stands to reason that pound-for-pound, many divine spells also out-blast arcane spells by quite a bit as well, so both the divine list at higher levels and the Animist are excellent blasters.
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Anyone is welcome to conduct their own damage analysis and use whatever metrics of proof they want and present them here for discussion.
I don’t see my analysis as flip flopping between one round and multiple round analysis except to point out whether this one round of optimal dame is repeatable or hot, and number of times it can be repeated. I am just presenting one round of potential damage (ideally a first round, as that is where damage optimization is most useful, and is considered so in every discussion or guide about blasting I have seen. I think there is a case that can be made for buying oneself a prep round, but that only really holds if the enemy can’t start doing damage on round 1 or have preparation that they can do that neutralizes the benefits, and all of that is pretty far outside the realm of simple blasting optimization). I include the HP of the target and consider a loose percentage of total hp per round because raw DPR numbers can be misleading. 30 damage against a level 13 foe tends to be a bigger team contribution than 30 damage against a level 15 foe. I find thinking about number of times I’d need to keep up this damage to defeat a foe a useful metric for thinking about blasting, even when we are just talking about a single round. Feel free to present the information in a different form if you wish, all the raw numbers on in my notes.
I am not the first or only person to point out that channeler’s stance is a difficult and costly damage booster to get going. Because Earth’s Bile is so anemic against the Diabolic Dragon, I think Channeler’s Stance + Crashing Wave is going to be able to out perform Holy Light and Earth’s Bile against the diabolical dragon by a significant margin but still trail the sorcerer significantly. I will do that math when I can. Weapon Storm and other options will all under perform Crashing Wave. The Animist’s biggest blasting problem generally is a lack of top spell slots, and channeler’s stance used with apparition spells is one top rank a day and one a day at a rank lower than that. Past that, your 2 action blasting options are way behind a dedicated blaster and your channeler’s stance is making a smaller contribution as well. Single target blasting in particular, channeler’s stance is just not a big damage adjuster for the action cost and difficulty getting all that much out of it. Again, the Diabolic Dragon may present one of the few opportunities where an animist can benefit from it, but the difference is extremely limited, especially against an enemy where your vessel blasting spell is nearly useless.
The Mirage Dragon is going to be an absolutely murderous against arcane casters, including Magi. They are all going to struggle, but the imperial sorcerer is really not that far behind an animist against one of the most challenging foes for them. The Diabolic Dragon is a very different story and the Animist is much better off not trying to play blaster against it at all. These two creatures are intended as stress tests, not typical encounter experiences.
My argument has never been that Animists are bad blasters generally, but that (outside of very low levels, when cantrips are viable as primary blasting options) they are once a day blasters and then they can’t really keep up at all with traditional blasters, especially arcane and primal ones. All of their little blasting tricks run dry when you are trying to blast from top rank-2 slots.
But where the Animist as blaster is really going to fall apart is that even their damaging apparition spells are mostly limited to 30ft ranges with lots of short range cones as their primary AoE options. Flying targets generally and fire resistant/immune ones in particular are going to be very difficult targets for Animists to blast. Even with sustaining on moving action compression, the Animist as a blaster is really going to want to be in a party with a commander.
Additionally, related to the OP topic, something about the Remaster that has really hurt the arcane list if a game is played with no legacy content possible, is that spell attack roll spells are the secret weapon against higher level boss monsters, and the removal of almost all of them from spell slots (and not cantrips or focus spells) except for Holy Light (which stays on Primal as well) and Chilling Darkness (divine only) really sets arcane blasters back. It especially hurts against targets like the new dragons that get such large bonuses to save against specific disciplines, which is why a spell like Holy Light, which loses half its damage, is still one of the best for targeting a Diabolic Dragon who's saves are rather bonkers.
Thunderstrike is not a terrible spell, but for raw damage, Shocking Grasp was the higher level solo creature blast champion, especially with the ability to pair with little tricks like spectral hand cast as a prebuff.
In PF2? Why do you like spell attack rolls in PF2? It seems using a favorable save would be better than an attack roll spell.
I don't think that's what the analysis shows at all; the difference between the Animist and the Imperial Sorcerer even in that worst-case scenario isn't that large, whereas the fight against the Mirage Dragon shuts down normally prime choices such as disintegrate. It is rather obvious that neither an Animist nor an Imperial Sorcerer can fire a top-rank slot six times in a row every encounter, so it stands to reason that either class would probably want to spend at least some time setting up in order to maximize their output and not burn out prematurely; this is something the Animist does far better than the Sorcerer thanks to their many force multipliers, and even Channeler's Stance is itself turned into an opportunity to make extra Sustains with Cycle of Souls. In fact, this is something any generic divine caster can do better than a generic arcane caster thanks to spells like divine wrath, which let you both blast and weaken an enemy.
I'd also say the argument that Animists are "once a day" blasters is not only completely wrong, but the opposite is true: for starters, it's obviously false when the Animist has three top-rank slots and plenty of apparition blasts to choose alongside their divine spells. Not only that, but when Channeling Stance lets you add a +20 to your damage every round, earth's bile lets you add another 30 (5 of which is persistent), Dancing Invocation and Elf Step also let you sustain apparition spells like hungry depths or invoke spirits with the same action, Cardinal Guardians give you a +2 to your spell attack rolls and DCs, and Apparition's Quickening lets you front-load your spells even more as needed, all of this stacks up to such an extent that not only do the higher-rank slots perform significantly better, but the class gets more mileage than nearly any other caster out of their lower-rank slots, of which they have many. If you're really strapped for spell slots, you can also get Apparition's Reflection for unlimited slot spells to boot. The Animist has some of the best per-day spellcasting longevity out of any caster, if not the best, and so can keep going even longer than a Sorcerer.
But all of this is very qualitative, and you invited other analyses, so I'll be very happy to put forth a much more basic one:
So yeah, case closed I'd say. Divine is a perfectly valid blasting tradition.
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In PF2? Why do you like spell attack rolls in PF2? It seems using a favorable save would be better than an attack roll spell.Additionally, related to the OP topic, something about the Remaster that has really hurt the arcane list if a game is played with no legacy content possible, is that spell attack roll spells are the secret weapon against higher level boss monsters, and the removal of almost all of them from spell slots (and not cantrips or focus spells) except for Holy Light (which stays on Primal as well) and Chilling Darkness (divine only) really sets arcane blasters back. It especially hurts against targets like the new dragons that get such large bonuses to save against specific disciplines, which is why a spell like Holy Light, which loses half its damage, is still one of the best for targeting a Diabolic Dragon who's saves are rather bonkers.
Thunderstrike is not a terrible spell, but for raw damage, Shocking Grasp was the higher level solo creature blast champion, especially with the ability to pair with little tricks like spectral hand cast as a prebuff.
Spell attack roll spells are the easiest to shift your target number into favorable critical ranges (off guard alone is 2 and you can benefit from status bonuses to attack), benefit from ties going to the roller, and can benefit from a hero point, even when you don’t want to use an action on sure strike. They also bypass bonuses to save vs Magic, which are fairly common at high levels. It’s not a use this all the time option but they are a good tool to have against higher level solo bosses.
My view on the animist is they are a good blaster. You can build an exceptional animist blaster if you choose to do so. They are a better blaster than they are a melee. Though I do think you could make a pretty good ranged animist with strong blasting ability.
I'm not in dispute the animist is a good blasting class with versatility. You could do some math of various situations to show they area good blaster around an idea blasting build. I don't much need that example for a variety of situations to see the animist can blast.
They have fireball and all their apparition spells are signature spells. So they can heighten and cast any of them in any of their apparition slots.
I made a DPR comparison using PF2e Damage Caculator to compare Sorcerer vs Animist damages.
Some notes about this comparison:
I'm curious: where do Cardinal Guardians or Dancing Invocation+Elf Step with an additional Sustained damage spell come into play in the above? At a cursory glance, it appears that everything that could boost the Sorcerer here was factored in, but the same was not extended to the Animist, who despite these omissions still isn't far from an Imperial Sorcerer with Effortless Concentration.
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Let's also not forget in this analysis that divine spells are way better than arcane spells against unholy opponents.
Sure, you'll meet trolls and dragons and highwaymen during your campaigns, but you'll probably also meet liches and imps and cultists champions. In this case, the damage gap shifts dramatically.
As I said earlier, is it better to be always consistent like arcane, or to deal maybe 10% less damage 60% of the time and 30% more damage 40% of the time ?
YMMV depending on the campaign you're on, but deciding which class deals the most damage cannot be done by just randomly choosing a dragon and calling it quits.
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Okay, I don't have that much abstract theory to share, but I have been playing a blasting oriented sorcerer through Prey for Death using remaster rules. And the experience has been pretty good.
Some context: Prey for Death starts at level 14, and everyone is aligned with the Red Mantis Asassins. I made a divine dragon sorcerer with a dedication as cleric of Grandmother Spider, who has a weird sort of fellowship with Achaekek. It also means I pick up the Holy trait which allows me to use the sanctification on my divine spells.
Spells that have worked quite well for me have been:
- haste 3 and 7
- roaring applause 3 and 6
- heal (signature)
- divine wrath (signature)
- divine immolation (signature)
- crisis of faith
- heroism 6
- divine decree
- resist energy 7
- summon elemental herald
- DRAGON BREATH
There's some others that I was expecting a lot from but that I didn't get around to using, like vampiric exsanguination and canticle of everlasting grief.
The dragon breath has been doing some heavy lifting. By now (level 17) it's a focus spell that does a respectable 17d6 in a 30ft cone, and of course I recover focus points really easily.
Divine Wrath is extremely cheap. Any combat where you run into 3+ enemies it's a great opening move because if even one enemy crit-fails they're sickened 2 and slowed 1 until they completely remove sickened, which is a big neutering.
Divine Decree is also great, because if you have a fight with a bunch of fiends, just whack and whack them with it. The critfail effect can just immediately dispose of a mook that might otherwise have 200+ HP.
Elemental Herald is weird but very flexible. It's very good at only doing damage to enemies, has tons of damage types, can be positioned quite neatly, and can also push enemies around.
Overall I made a nice build with a few clever bits in it, but the main driver is just what the sorcerer class just does. And it's worked very well. It's not unusual to end up doing 50-200 damage with a focus spell in fights with multiple enemies.
Remaster's changes to the divine list are really game-changing. I've played a cleric to 20 in Age of Ashes and it was plenty effective. But remaster has a lot of quality of life. There's no more "neutral" enemies; your best blasts tend to just hit all enemies and no allies. I would say divine blasting has two special sauce spices: doing holy damage, and being really good at avoiding friendly fire.
I'm curious: where do Cardinal Guardians or Dancing Invocation+Elf Step with an additional Sustained damage spell come into play in the above? At a cursory glance, it appears that everything that could boost the Sorcerer here was factored in, but the same was not extended to the Animist, who despite these omissions still isn't far from an Imperial Sorcerer with Effortless Concentration.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Cardinal Guardians is pretty complicated to apply due to its need to cast an apparition spell of a different apparition from what you used to “trigger” it. In practice, this means that the available list is pretty small because I have to avoid weaker damage spells that debuffs at the same time or have their damage reduced due to some AoE or non-friendly fire aspect. I will try to do a new line with them.
About Dancing Invocation, it doesn't affect your DPR at all. At maximum could be considered as defensively because you can step away from enemies, but there's no way to put this in a DPR calculation. It was, as I said in notes. All these consider that the caster don't need to use move action, and it's fully focused into do damage. It's too different from Effortless Concentration that turns an entire Sustain action into a free action, freeing your 3rd action to use as you want, including to do more damage.
Let's also not forget in this analysis that divine spells are way better than arcane spells against unholy opponents.
Yes of-course, but once it is specific types of enemies I didn't put it into account. Also, many of these spells are available to other traditions too like primal. Only few are really divine exclusive.
Spell attack roll spells are the easiest to shift your target number into favorable critical ranges (off guard alone is 2 and you can benefit from status bonuses to attack), benefit from ties going to the roller, and can benefit from a hero point, even when you don’t want to use an action on sure strike. They also bypass bonuses to save vs Magic, which are fairly common at high levels. It’s not a use this all the time option but they are a good tool to have against higher level solo bosses.In PF2? Why do you like spell attack rolls in PF2? It seems using a favorable save would be better than an attack roll spell.Additionally, related to the OP topic, something about the Remaster that has really hurt the arcane list if a game is played with no legacy content possible, is that spell attack roll spells are the secret weapon against higher level boss monsters, and the removal of almost all of them from spell slots (and not cantrips or focus spells) except for Holy Light (which stays on Primal as well) and Chilling Darkness (divine only) really sets arcane blasters back. It especially hurts against targets like the new dragons that get such large bonuses to save against specific disciplines, which is why a spell like Holy Light, which loses half its damage, is still one of the best for targeting a Diabolic Dragon who's saves are rather bonkers.
Thunderstrike is not a terrible spell, but for raw damage, Shocking Grasp was the higher level solo creature blast champion, especially with the ability to pair with little tricks like spectral hand cast as a prebuff.
I don't see this in play. Spell Attack spells have 3 results: Crit Hit, Hit, and Miss.
The four points of success with a save have superior damage results, especially when accounting for weaknesses. This results in increased "accuracy."
I don't want to cherry pick creatures favoring my argument. You can set up situations where you have a very good chance to hit with an attack roll spell, but I also must say that even with the off-guard and status bonuses there seem to be saves so weak as to offset the bonuses to an attack roll spell as well as the increased chance of complete failure due to the 3 results with half of them being complete failure.
To do this example justice, I don't think this white room math does very well.
I think you need to set up an encounter, set up the distance, with both classes having to set up their schtick. Because to me that is one of the reasons the animist would fall behind is because their setup is more complicated.
Whereas the sorc just rolls initiative, then drops the hammer with Ancestral Memories or Elemental blast in range. No stances required. No real set up required.
Whereas the animist is using a fairly complicated set up which makes their action economy clunky.
It would be better to say design an encounter, give a starting distance, and then let competing classes show the rounds doing the set up for each class to do their thing.
I'm curious: where do Cardinal Guardians or Dancing Invocation+Elf Step with an additional Sustained damage spell come into play in the above? At a cursory glance, it appears that everything that could boost the Sorcerer here was factored in, but the same was not extended to the Animist, who despite these omissions still isn't far from an Imperial Sorcerer with Effortless Concentration.Thanks for the suggestion.
Cardinal Guardians is pretty complicated to apply due to its need to cast an apparition spell of a different apparition from what you used to “trigger” it. In practice, this means that the available list is pretty small because I have to avoid weaker damage spells that debuffs at the same time or have their damage reduced due to some AoE or non-friendly fire aspect. I will try to do a new line with them.
About Dancing Invocation, it doesn't affect your DPR at all. At maximum could be considered as defensively because you can step away from enemies, but there's no way to put this in a DPR calculation. It was, as I said in notes. All these consider that the caster don't need to use move action, and it's fully focused into do damage. It's too different from Effortless Concentration that turns an entire Sustain action into a free action, freeing your 3rd action to use as you want, including to do more damage.
Let's also not forget in this analysis that divine spells are way better than arcane spells against unholy opponents.Yes of-course, but once it is specific types of enemies I didn't put it into account. Also, many of these spells are available to other traditions too like primal. Only few are really divine exclusive.
I have updated the graph adding the Cardinal Guardians bonus, but the difference was minor. It is still far from take a caster with Effortless Concentration in terms of DPR even with I'm cheating in favor of Cardinal Guardians because it does a loop between apparition and vessel spells (an enemy needs to fail against the Earth's Bile in order to other apparitions spells to get the “+2” benefit at the same time that the enemy needs to fail against this other apparition spell in order to make Earth's Bile the benefit. Once there's no easy way to implement it in the calculator, I just added the +2 as DC bonus to both).
The main problem with Cardinal Guardians is the lack of other apparition blast oriented like Steward of Stone and Fire. In order to it works I needed to seek for another save spell in other apparition and the best that I found was spells with same damage that a heightened fireball would do (Vision of Death and Weapon Storm using d12 weapons) but the fact that the damage of these spells are weaker than Volcanic Eruption and Falling Stars nullified the Cardinal Guardians benefit similar to Execution spell did with Channeler's Stance in the divine spell animist line, it's so strong that compensate the apparitions Channeler's Stance bonus making then equivalent (except the fact of most Steward of Stone and Fire are AoE while Execute is single target).
Spell attack roll spells are the easiest to shift your target number into favorable critical ranges (off guard alone is 2 and you can benefit from status bonuses to attack), benefit from ties going to the roller, and can benefit from a hero point, even when you don’t want to use an action on sure strike. They also bypass bonuses to save vs Magic, which are fairly common at high levels. It’s not a use this all the time option but they are a good tool to have against higher level solo bosses.In PF2? Why do you like spell attack rolls in PF2? It seems using a favorable save would be better than an attack roll spell.Additionally, related to the OP topic, something about the Remaster that has really hurt the arcane list if a game is played with no legacy content possible, is that spell attack roll spells are the secret weapon against higher level boss monsters, and the removal of almost all of them from spell slots (and not cantrips or focus spells) except for Holy Light (which stays on Primal as well) and Chilling Darkness (divine only) really sets arcane blasters back. It especially hurts against targets like the new dragons that get such large bonuses to save against specific disciplines, which is why a spell like Holy Light, which loses half its damage, is still one of the best for targeting a Diabolic Dragon who's saves are rather bonkers.
Thunderstrike is not a terrible spell, but for raw damage, Shocking Grasp was the higher level solo creature blast champion, especially with the ability to pair with little tricks like spectral hand cast as a prebuff.
I don't see this in play. Spell Attack spells have 3 results: Crit Hit, Hit, and Miss.
The four points of success with a save have superior damage results, especially when accounting for weaknesses. This results in increased "accuracy."
I don't want to cherry pick creatures favoring my argument. You can set up situations where you have a very...
Yes, the difference of Basic Saves and Spell Attack is pretty easy to notice.
To do this example justice, I don't think this white room math does very well.
I think you need to set up an encounter, set up the distance, with both classes having to set up their schtick. Because to me that is one of the reasons the animist would fall behind is because their setup is more complicated.
Whereas the sorc just rolls initiative, then drops the hammer with Ancestral Memories or Elemental blast in range. No stances required. No real set up required.
Whereas the animist is using a fairly complicated set up which makes their action economy clunky.
It would be better to say design an encounter, give a starting distance, and then let competing classes show the rounds doing the set up for each class to do their thing.
Most animist setup is not that clunky. The fact that vessel spells costs just one-action to cast helps they in their initial turn a lot. The most “clunky” party probably is just the stance. But it isn't that bad. The setup of most other casters usually requires a 2-3 actions to cast.
I have updated the graph adding the Cardinal Guardians bonus, but the difference was minor. It is still far from take a caster with Effortless Concentration in terms of DPR even with I'm cheating in favor of Cardinal Guardians because it does a loop between...I'm curious: where do Cardinal Guardians or Dancing Invocation+Elf Step with an additional Sustained damage spell come into play in the above? At a cursory glance, it appears that everything that could boost the Sorcerer here was factored in, but the same was not extended to the Animist, who despite these omissions still isn't far from an Imperial Sorcerer with Effortless Concentration.Thanks for the suggestion.
Cardinal Guardians is pretty complicated to apply due to its need to cast an apparition spell of a different apparition from what you used to “trigger” it. In practice, this means that the available list is pretty small because I have to avoid weaker damage spells that debuffs at the same time or have their damage reduced due to some AoE or non-friendly fire aspect. I will try to do a new line with them.
About Dancing Invocation, it doesn't affect your DPR at all. At maximum could be considered as defensively because you can step away from enemies, but there's no way to put this in a DPR calculation. It was, as I said in notes. All these consider that the caster don't need to use move action, and it's fully focused into do damage. It's too different from Effortless Concentration that turns an entire Sustain action into a free action, freeing your 3rd action to use as you want, including to do more damage.
Let's also not forget in this analysis that divine spells are way better than arcane spells against unholy opponents.Yes of-course, but once it is specific types of enemies I didn't put it into account. Also, many of these spells are available to other traditions too like primal. Only few are really divine exclusive.
Most of other casters I play don't require that kind of a set up. I mostly open with a big blast spell. With the arcane sorc, usually ancestral memories and a big blast spell. You want to open with the big hammer before your allies close so you can drop the heaviest blast you can with the least chance of affecting your allies.
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I do think it is important to point out a couple of things about my take on casters:
1. The "best" caster for any campaign is going to be incredibly dependent upon they type of campaign it is and the way the GM runs everything from downtime, to exploration mode and encounter types. For example: there is a huge difference in the efficacy of spells that do damage over multiple rounds in campaigns where encounters can collapse onto each other, last for 8 to 10 rounds, and go potentially 10 encounters before the party can rest..and more PFS style adventures and campaigns where combat encounters tend to last 2 or 3 rounds at most and rarely push more than 3 or 4 encounters into any one given day of adventuring. Also factored into "campaign variance" includes optional rules that might be available, ease of access to scrolls, how much information a GM reveals on Recall Knowledge checks, expected levels of play, and how the GM handles things like conceal spell and how the people in the world react to spells being cast in the world around them. How far apart do enemies start in encounters? These are good things to ask about in a session 0, rather than to assume your GM will tell you before one aspect of this table variance pops up in play and doesn't break your way.
2. Blasting is only one thing casters can do, and casters don't need to be top tier blasters to be effective casters who also use blast spells occasionally. One of the things I like about the Spell substitution Wizard is the ability to prepare generally to be able to blast my way through the next encounter, and no more, because I can get buy with arcane bond and scrolls for the occasional combat stacked on top of another. As the day goes on, I can keep re-preparing spells, until I stop being able to blast my way through an encounter and then it is usually time to start talking to the party about where we are going to rest.
3. Typically, on these forums, when people are talking about blasting, they are talking exclusively about damage and the amount of it done in one round. There are lots of other good things you can do as a caster than damage that might even help defeat an enemy more quickly...but that doesn't usually factor into conversations about making good blasters. When people try to tack a bunch of other aspects of the value of casting into discussions about how much damage spells can do, it greatly reduces the ability of people to have any kind of objective conversations about how good of blasters various spells and classes make them.
4.PF2 has a lot of moving parts and that is super true of trying to cast spells effectively and evaluate their efficacy. For example, spells like Spirit Blast will out pace spells like Thunderstrike at level 6 and then immediately fall off to equal at rank 7 and worse beyond that. Things that kill blaster DPR are having to move around a lot instead of spending third actions doing more damage, or taking actions that improve the damage output of their other spells, and players entering into a scarcity mind set where they start casting less powerful spells when encounters still need the powerful ones to end more quickly. There are tons of discussions about this on these boards if you want to look for or debate about whether scrolls are a useful part of blasting, for example.
This list isn't exhaustive of complications to discussions of effective blasting, but they are ones that I see pop up in threads about how to blast effectively and who does it well fairly commonly.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Cardinal Guardians is pretty complicated to apply due to its need to cast an apparition spell of a different apparition from what you used to “trigger” it. In practice, this means that the available list is pretty small because I have to avoid weaker damage spells that debuffs at the same time or have their damage reduced due to some AoE or non-friendly fire aspect. I will try to do a new line with them.
About Dancing Invocation, it doesn't affect your DPR at all. At maximum could be considered as defensively because you can step away from enemies, but there's no way to put this in a DPR calculation. It was, as I said in notes. All these consider that the caster don't need to use move action, and it's fully focused into do damage. It's too different from Effortless Concentration that turns an entire Sustain action into a free action, freeing your 3rd action to use as you want, including to do more damage.
It does, and by quite a bit. To be clear, what I am explaining is that Dancing Invocation, in combination with Elf Step, allows you to Sustain earth's bile and a second apparition spell, like hungry depths or invoke spirits. That second spell is missing from your calculations, which makes for a pretty big damage gap, and because you can have apparition spells from different apparitions dealing damage in quick succession, you can end up applying Cardinal Guardian's benefits to all of those spells, while triple-dipping into Channeler's Stance.