| larkgrace |
One of the weapons in Battlecry! seems to cause a rules conflict that I'd love to see some clarification on. The Horselord's Longbow (Battlecry p. 128) is a specific +1 striking longbow, and states that "While you are mounted, Strikes with this bow gain a +2 circumstance bonus to damage against unmounted creatures who are smaller than your mount." However, by default longbows (PC p. 280) can't be used while mounted. Is the Horselord's Longbow a specific exception to this rule? If not, the only way I can think of to take advantage of the damage bonus would be to do something like sit on top of a siege engine and fire it, which doesn't match the flavor text at all and seriously stretches the definition of "mounted."
| Finoan |
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I would also allow the Horselord's Longbow to be used while mounted as an override of the rule in Longbow saying that Longbows can't be used while mounted.
Not that I am a fan of implied rules - especially override rules of other explicitly stated rules. Horselord's Longbow absolutely needs errata to add rule text overriding the Longbow and allowing it to be used while mounted. But until that errata arrives, I would still allow the specific magic weapon to be usable as it is described.
| TheFinish |
It is clearly intended to work on horseback. Whether the author forgot you couldn't use regular longbows on horseback or they knew it and intended it to be a specific exception doesn't really matter IMO.
I think it's the former, given that the "can't be used while mounted" part is hidden in the Longbow's description, and isn't a trait or anything. So if a writer isn't aware of that particular quirk, giving the weapon a once over won't really reveal it.
I agree with everyone in this thread that says the item should definitely be useable while mounted.
| Claxon |
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The weapon is intended to be usable while mounted obviously.
I see 3 solutions:
1) The horselord's lonngbow has an exception, and whether it's implied or if it was forgotten the specific bow is intended to work, so leave it as is
2) Make it a shortbow instead. Shortbow can be used on horseback. The lower range makes it kind of awkward in my opinion, but is manageable.
3) Make it a Daikyu bow. The daikyu is an uncommon advanced bow. It loses volley compared to the longbow, can be used while mounted, and has 80ft range instead of 100. I'm not sure exactly why is was made advanced...I suppose losing volley is viewed as enough reason.
Personally, I'd probably say the horselord's bow is a daikyu bow that functions as it was otherwise described, with the addition of functioning based on Martial proficiency, instead of Advanced while mounted.
| Finoan |
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I don't see the need to demand such exact parsing. "While you are mounted..." is sufficient to explain that this specific longbow has an override over a general long bow quality. "You may use it while mounted. While you are mounted..." would just be excess verbiage connoting exactly the same thing.
Glad to know that you have never encountered a GM that was actively trying to make the game harder for everyone by 'being fair and running the game as written'.
| Easl |
Glad to know that you have never encountered a GM that was actively trying to make the game harder for everyone by 'being fair and running the game as written'.
I've certainly had disputes with other players and GMs, but nothing this obtuse. 'When you attack from horseback with this widget' clearly connotes 'you can attack from horseback with this widget.' If someone doesn't recognize that and they need that message stated in a separate sentence, then I would argue that they are the ones not being fair to their players. English is simply not used in a way where every specific point, every factoid, gets its own separate sentence. Neither do the rules need to be. At least, I used to think that was the case. Maybe I was wrong.
| Finoan |
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I've certainly had disputes with other players and GMs, but nothing this obtuse. 'When you attack from horseback with this widget' clearly connotes 'you can attack from horseback with this widget.'
The argument would be 'you have to get the ability to use the longbow while mounted from a different feat or ability'. Something like Mounted Warrior Dedication or Shriikirri-Quah Clan Guard Ancestry feat.
Which was a very common thing to do in PF1 - cobble together a bunch of different feats and abilities and equipment to create something that is useful. Often something more powerful than the sum of its parts. So it becomes something that experienced PF1 GMs are constantly on the lookout for and wary of.
So if an ability doesn't remove a restriction from equipment on its own, these wary GMs aren't going to add it in and allow it. That just makes the game-breaking build faster to come online. It is better to at least require that additional feat before allowing the build.
| Tridus |
Easl wrote:I've certainly had disputes with other players and GMs, but nothing this obtuse. 'When you attack from horseback with this widget' clearly connotes 'you can attack from horseback with this widget.'The argument would be 'you have to get the ability to use the longbow while mounted from a different feat or ability'. Something like Mounted Warrior Dedication or Shriikirri-Quah Clan Guard Ancestry feat.
Which was a very common thing to do in PF1 - cobble together a bunch of different feats and abilities and equipment to create something that is useful. Often something more powerful than the sum of its parts. So it becomes something that experienced PF1 GMs are constantly on the lookout for and wary of.
So if an ability doesn't remove a restriction from equipment on its own, these wary GMs aren't going to add it in and allow it. That just makes the game-breaking build faster to come online. It is better to at least require that additional feat before allowing the build.
The fact that PF1 was a busted game with all these ridiculous cases requiring this kind of lawyering of the rules is a PF1 problem.
In PF2, running RAW when its so obviously going against the intent of the thing is a troll ruling.
| Finoan |
The fact that PF1 was a busted game with all these ridiculous cases requiring this kind of lawyering of the rules is a PF1 problem.
In PF2, running RAW when its so obviously going against the intent of the thing is a troll ruling.
But that doesn't mean that there aren't such GMs running PF2. And it doesn't mean that this doesn't need errata.