Hello, I have a question about Implement's Empowerment and Jousting weapon.
Implement's Empowerment
When you Strike, you can trace mystic patterns with an implement you're holding to empower the Strike, causing it to deal 2 additional damage per weapon damage die. Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.
Jousting Weapon
When mounted, if you moved at least 10 feet on the action before your attack, add a circumstance bonus to damage for that attack equal to the number of damage dice for the weapon. In addition, while mounted, you can wield the weapon in one hand, changing the damage die to the listed value. As a part of your action to Mount a creature, you can switch your grip on a jousting weapon to one-handed.
1/Is it possible to use Implement's Empowerment with a jousting weapon if the character is mounted and so wield the weapon in one hand ?
Harnessed Shield
You can Interact to lock a weapon with the jousting trait in place in the shield, enabling you to use two hands to wield the shield and weapon simultaneously. If you're not wielding the combined unit with both hands, you can use neither the weapon nor the shield.
While you have the shield raised, you can gain the jousting benefit of a weapon as if you were mounted. Because a significant portion of the weapon needs to be braced behind the shield, the weapon's reach is reduced by 5 feet if it is greater than 5 feet.
2/s it a shield in one hand and the weapon in one other hand ?
If the character was mounted and the shield raised, can the character obtain the circumstance bonus to damage for that attack equal to the number of damage dice for the weapon ?But not the implement's empowerment because he holds a shield who wasn't an implement, is it right ?
Character :
Thaumaturge level 8 Strength (+ 4)
Level 2 : class feat : cavalier dedication
If you have pledged yourself to a cause, you can take a second dedication feat closely tied to that cause even if you haven’t taken two additional cavalier feats.
Is it possible to take ranger dedication ?
Level 4 : ranger dedication
Feat skill : quick mount
Level 6 : Basic Hunter's Trik : Initiate Warden (Gravity weapon)
Level 8 : Defend Mount
Young animal companion : horse
Round 1 : Action 1 : Gravity weapon
Round 2 : Action 1 : Exploit Vulnerability : personal antithesis
Action 2 : Command an Animal : 1st action Support Benefit 2nd action Stride 10 feet or more
Action 3 : Strike with a striking Lance
3/If the strike hits :
2d6 (striking lance) + 4 (strength) + 6 (exploit vulnerability 2+1/2 niveau) + 4(Implement's Empowerment 2/weapon damage dice) + 6 circumstance (support benefit + jousting weapon) + 4 status (gravity weapon 2/weapon damage dice) = 2d6 + 24, is it right ?
4/ Implements : Tome, Weapon, Regalia
A regalia can be an heraldic banner.
For exemple, there is knight captain's lance.
It has a cloth flag attached behind the lance point that displays whatever heraldry the wielder wishes. If a cavalier with the Cavalier's Banner feat takes the knight captain's lance, it instead automatically displays the banner of their pledge.
Is it possible to have 2 implements in the same item in one hand ? Lance (weapon implement) with a banner (regalia implement) attaced behind the lance point ?
Thanks for your future answer.
The way I see it is there are two possible outcomes:
1) The lance is not a 1 handed weapon, and thus never qualifies for Implements Empowerment.
2) The lance counts as one handed while mounted due to jousting
Personally....I think number 1 is more likely than number 2.
As to the harnessed shield question, the only way it would work is if you could make the shield an implement because otherwise you would be holding something that isn't a implement, esoterica, or single one-handed weapon.
That's as far as I got, and I don't know if it's possible to have a shield as an implement.
Edit: Rereading implements, you can only choose one handed weapons as implements, lances will never qualify as an implement. And I don't think there's any implement that you could use a shield as. You could maybe argue mirror with a GM, but I wouldn't count on it.
A lance is not a one-handed weapon, and can't be empowered.
Holding a shield also prevents Implement's Empowerment.
Whether something is related to your cavalier cause is a GM decision.
Tying one implement onto another wouldn't reasonably count as holding both, nor would sticking an implement on a weapon. Regalia gives some benefits even when not held, though.
If you want to go to a GM and ask them to bend the rules a bit to make a jousting knight Thaumaturge, you can always ask. Implement's Empowerment is a special feature to make up for having one hand occupied (being stuck without a two-handed weapon or shield, or usually even a free hand), though. Even in the spirit of the rules, it should never trigger with both hands doing something (like sword-and-board).
As a GM I might bend the rules a bit and let the player choose the lance as a weapon implement, but it would only qualify as an implement while being wielded in one hand. So it is definitely not an ideal situation.
I wouldn't bend the rules enough to allow a shield to be considered any type of implement.
Yes, while holding or wielding a shield, the only Thaumaturge ability that has problems is Implement's Empowerment. So you are losing a bit of the damage boost that Thaumaturge normally gets. It is somewhat like a Barbarian that is using an Agile weapon and so only gets half of their Rage bonus damage. It is a tradeoff that some characters may decide to make. All other damage boost options would still work, including the bonus damage from a jousting weapon.
3/If the strike hits :
2d6 (striking lance) + 4 (strength) + 6 (exploit vulnerability 2+1/2 niveau) + 4(Implement's Empowerment 2/weapon damage dice) + 6 circumstance (support benefit + jousting weapon) + 4 status (gravity weapon 2/weapon damage dice) = 2d6 + 24, is it right ?
You forgot Weapon Specialization, which a Thaumaturge gets at level 7. That would be another +2 damage. The Exploit Vulnerability damage isn't actually part of the Strike damage calculation - it is a weakness and so gets applied later in the damage calculation process. The biggest difference that makes is that it wouldn't get doubled on a crit.
So: 2d6 +20 damage (doubled on a crit) with weakness 6 applied when the target takes that damage.
It is debatable if the same item can be two different Implements. Much like it is debated for an item being two different Exemplar Ikons. And for very similar reasons. The hand usage is part of the cost of using these class features. Make a table ruling for this that you and your table are happy with. Neither ruling is going to break anything.
We have gotten clarification previously in that abilities that specify 'handed-ness' so yes you can absolutely use implements empowerment with a jousting weapon while mounted.
Yes.
To be clear, I would definitely allow a jousting weapon used one-handed to qualify for use with Implement's Empowerment. Just like I would allow a Bastard Sword being used one-handed to qualify.
The jousting weapon is inherently a 2-handed weapon. So it would not qualify to be selected as a Weapon Implement without houserules.
Ah, thanks. I had misunderstood the one/two-handed ruling, so the clarification is appreciated.
The Harnessed Shield would never work in this case since the Lance can't be an implement, which means to get Implements Empowerment you need to be holding an implement in your other hand. The shield also isn't an implement.
We have gotten clarification previously in that abilities that specify 'handed-ness' so yes you can absolutely use implements empowerment with a jousting weapon while mounted.Yes.
To be clear, I would definitely allow a jousting weapon used one-handed to qualify for use with Implement's Empowerment. Just like I would allow a Bastard Sword being used one-handed to qualify.
The jousting weapon is inherently a 2-handed weapon. So it would not qualify to be selected as a Weapon Implement without houserules.
I just realized something thanks to your post, I was thinking for Empower Implement you needed to use a weapon implement to do the Empower-ing bit. But it's not so, you just need to have an implement in hand and in your other hand only have a 1 handed weapon, implement, or esoterica.
Meaning you could use empower implements on a lance while mounted. I had been thinking the weapon needed to be the implement, and thus it wouldn't qualify because the lance can never be an implement, but that's not the case.
What you can't do though, is use a shield (and I wouldn't entertain house rules that would let a shield count as some kind of implement).
Claxion already covered that you are unable to choose the Lance as an Implement but that doesn't really answer the question of "can I empower a two-handed weapon when used as a one-handed weapon", Which you absolutely can rules as written and intended.
This is true, that you can empower a two-handed (class) of weapon but you would need some ability to wield that weapon a one hand, otherwise it would violate the restrictions of Empower Implement. The lance qualifies because of jousting (but only while mounted).
Personally I wouldn't build around such a thing, and you definitely can't use a shield unless you find a GM willing to house rule that you can make a shield an implement (they shouldn't IMO, but I'm not the rules police).
Ok, if a character uses a tome as implement and a lance (one handed) on a mount, the implement's empowerment functions, is it right ?
4/ Implements : Tome, Weapon, Regalia
A regalia can be an heraldic banner.
For exemple, there is knight captain's lance.
Quote:It has a cloth flag attached behind the lance point that displays whatever heraldry the wielder wishes. If a cavalier with the Cavalier's Banner feat takes the knight captain's lance, it instead automatically displays the banner of their pledge.
Is it possible to have 2 implements in the same item in one hand ? Lance (weapon implement) with a banner (regalia implement) attaced behind the lance point ?
The Captains lance is mainly for the Cavalier archetype so it would need to be a question to ask your GM if you could affix a heraldry to your lance and still count it as you holding the banner.
Other advices for the banner ?
Ok, if a character uses a tome as implement and a lance (one handed) on a mount, the implement's empowerment functions, is it right ?
Yes. I think everyone in this thread so far has agreed that a mundane lance used one-handed will work with Implement's Empowerment as long as you are holding another Implement in your other hand.
Other advices for the banner ?
Implements are pretty much all 1-hand held items (Weapon Implements are wielded, not just held - if that distinction is relevant for something). So without houserules, using a lance in one hand I think you would need to have the Banner being held in the other hand.
You could have the narrative description mismatched from the game mechanics. Mechanically the banner is held in the other hand. Narrative description is that the banner is attached to the lance and the other hand is empty (or effectively empty doing something narrative-only like holding the horse's reins).
You can also houserule it so that the banner can be attached to the lance. That is a power boost because it allows holding another item in the free hand, such as another Implement. Depending on how loose you are with the free action Implement swapping rule, and depending on which items the character is wanting to hold in the off-hand will determine how much of a power boost that is. If you are loose about allowing switching between Regalia Implement and Tome Implement for example (even though neither has an active action ability to use to trigger the implement swap) then the power boost is pretty low if the character is just wanting to attach the banner Regalia Implement to the lance and hold the Tome Implement in the other hand.
Regarding the banner, a Reglia implement could be a banner....but I would say you have to have it held in hand to function as an implement. If affixed to a captain's lance, I would allow it to function for Cavalier's banner, but not as an implement.
Ok, if a character uses a tome as implement and a lance (one handed) on a mount, the implement's empowerment functions, is it right ?
Other advices for the banner ?4/ Implements : Tome, Weapon, Regalia
A regalia can be an heraldic banner.
For exemple, there is knight captain's lance.
Quote:It has a cloth flag attached behind the lance point that displays whatever heraldry the wielder wishes. If a cavalier with the Cavalier's Banner feat takes the knight captain's lance, it instead automatically displays the banner of their pledge.
Is it possible to have 2 implements in the same item in one hand ? Lance (weapon implement) with a banner (regalia implement) attaced behind the lance point ?
The Captains lance is mainly for the Cavalier archetype so it would need to be a question to ask your GM if you could affix a heraldry to your lance and still count it as you holding the banner.
As noted previously, lances never qualify to be implements.
I don't think it's possible to combine multiple implement families into one item (or to allow an implement to function attached to another item). It's intended to be a drawback to need to switch between items/implements for certain functions to be available. Combining them would get around that, which is not intended IMO.
Basically, the thing you're trying to do (stack a bunch of damage bonuses) is something the game has carefully tried to prevent from happening. As a GM, I wouldn't appreciate such shenanigans beyond the initial query and me pointing out why it doesn't and generally shouldn't work.
Conversations like this make me really hope the remastered Thaumaturge has clearer and simpler hand use rules. "One hand is occupied with thaumaturgical activities and cannot be used for any other purpose." Done.
Something like that would be nice, and that's how I take it in practice, but unfortunately you couldn't write in quite that concisely. You'd have to define what "thaumaturgical activities" are. And sure, holding or wielding an implement is obvious, as is Esoterica. But you also have to cover swapping between those items. And you also have to cover what happens when you're not actually trying to get any thaumaturge benefits (like outside of combat). Because you still have 2 hands.
Like I get what you mean and intend by your short statement, and agree with the intent. But as a rules thing, it unfortunately can't really be that simple.
You could maybe add a sidebar that says basically what you said, "While attempting to use thaumaturgical abilities, one hand should be considered occupied by implements or esoterica and unavailable for any other use" to help people generally understand what's going on and why.
Yeah, a cleanup of that Implement switching ability would be nice.
I'd be happy with something like:
Implement Swap ◇
Frequency: Once per round
You Swap an Implement in one of your hands with a different Implement you have available.
It is both a bit of a nerf and a buff.
A nerf because the free action can only be used once per round, though you can use it at any point during the round you want.
A buff because it works with all Implements and is easier to adjudicate.
It's easier to adjudicate, but it's a big nerf to implements with reaction abilities.
From a practical standpoint, as the ability is written here:
While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action. This allows you to meet requirements of having an implement in hand to use its action. For example, if you had your lantern implement in one hand, a weapon in the other, and a chalice implement you were wearing, you could swap your lantern for your chalice to use its reaction.
My understanding of it as, as long as your implement is readily accessible (worn) you can freely switch between an and all implements, and per:
While your implements are your primary tools in your dealings with the supernatural, you know the value of always being prepared. You constantly collect and carry various smaller mystic objects, bits of materials with paranormal affinities, and items used in folk practices: your esoterica. These might include cold iron nails, scraps of scrolls and scriptures, fragments of bones purportedly from a saint, and other similar objects. You keep your esoterica in easy-to-access places on your person and are well practiced in brandishing your implement and esoterica together, so you can draw and use esoterica with the same hand you're using to wield an implement.
You can use the same hand to simultaneously handle your implement and esoterica.
I agree the wording could use some revisiting, but your simple version is a pretty big nerf to the class IMO.
I would personally propose (and I haven't thought out all the consequences yet) that you only get one physical implement, and that implement gradual takes on the various implement "roles" that exist (at the same rate you gained new implements) but I would probably also take away weapons ability to be implements. But that it could only function as one "role" at a time, but that you could free change between them as a free action during your turn or as part of a reaction. And I would also roll esoterica into to.
IMO, you can tell the dev team tried for too much flavor by creating the various multiple implements and adding esoterica, and then had to create a lot of bandaids to allow the class to juggle all these items. If you tweak the flavor a little bit, you can come up with justifications for how one physical implement manages to do everything. Maybe it's adding written incantations on the item, or symbols. Maybe you add different metal adornments to the item for esoterica. Many other things you can narratively say to realign things to one item constantly needing to be held without creating the problem of juggling multiple items, and then needing to also provide a solution to that problem.
Of course, my proposition does have a nerf in it, in that you can currently walk around with to implements out and gain the benefits of both, which this (not thought out suggestion) would take away.
It's easier to adjudicate, but it's a big nerf to implements with reaction abilities.
Mmm... No, actually.
you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action.
The swap is a free action, but it does not have a trigger.
Free actions without triggers can't be used when it is not your turn. So you can't swap Implements before a defensive reaction such as Amulet's Abeyance.
It has been discussed before - the example that Second Implement gives is bonkers levels of incorrect. While you could swap to a Chalice implement, it isn't to use a reaction. Chalice Implement doesn't have a reaction. And the rule doesn't support swapping to an Implement in order to use a reaction.
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It's easier to adjudicate, but it's a big nerf to implements with reaction abilities.Mmm... No, actually.
you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action.The swap is a free action, but it does not have a trigger.
Free actions without triggers can't be used when it is not your turn. So you can't swap Implements before a defensive reaction such as Amulet's Abeyance.
It has been discussed before - the example that Second Implement gives is bonkers levels of incorrect. While you could swap to a Chalice implement, it isn't to use a reaction. Chalice Implement doesn't have a reaction. And the rule doesn't support swapping to an Implement in order to use a reaction.
Eh. It's worded messily, but it's trying to say you can swap to an implement, even to use a reaction. It would be better to rewrite this:
While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action. This allows you to meet requirements of having an implement in hand to use its action. For example, if you had your lantern implement in one hand, a weapon in the other, and a chalice implement you were wearing, you could swap your lantern for your chalice to use its reaction.
to this:
For example, if you had your lantern implement in one hand, and a weapon implement you were wearing, you could swap your lantern for your weapon to use its reaction.
While normally you couldn't use free actions without a trigger out of turn, this is a case of specific overriding general. The alternative is that they'd write a really convoluted trigger along the lines of "you want to use an action or reaction of a different implement for which you'd qualify if only you were currently holding it".
Even if we all agree that this is the intent of the rule, that isn't what is written.
So categorizing my proposed alternative as a huge nerf over what is currently written is ... unjust. That is what I am taking exception to.
If a Remastered version of Thaumaturge happens and Paizo devs want to rewrite the Implement Swap ability entirely or even unify Implement items to be a single item no matter how many Implement types it contains, then that is something that they can do.
So categorizing my proposed alternative as a huge nerf over what is currently written is ... unjust.
But it's what you're proposing? It's an improvement to passive implement heavy builds and an unequivocal nerf to ones that lean on reaction and actives.
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They're very unlikely to unify implements into a single item, because "that dude from The Mummy juggling all those amulets" is kinda the fantasy they were aiming for. Implement's Empowerment is basically a compensation you get for doing less damage because you're stuck using only a single-handed weapon.
The swapping implements rule is clearly meant to let you swap to an implement to use a reaction. While you're technically right that the phrasing doesn't work nicely with the rule about using free actions with/without triggers, I think your conclusion is wrong. You're reading RAW too fine to the point where it gets in the way of how the rules say they want to function.
They're very unlikely to unify implements into a single item, because "that dude from The Mummy juggling all those amulets" is kinda the fantasy they were aiming for. Implement's Empowerment is basically a compensation you get for doing less damage because you're stuck using only a single-handed weapon.
The swapping implements rule is clearly meant to let you swap to an implement to use a reaction. While you're technically right that the phrasing doesn't work nicely with the rule about using free actions with/without triggers, I think your conclusion is wrong. You're reading RAW too fine to the point where it gets in the way of how the rules say they want to function.
Agree 100% on everything you mention.
While I think the class would be much better if the combine all implements and esoterica into one physical item, that is very much NOT the vibe they were going for. That makes writing the mechanics of the class in a satisfying way very hard, but if they changed it along the lines I proposed the class would lose a core part of its identity (I don't personally find it all the relevant to my enjoyment of the class, especially since their goal was to basically write band aids that effectively treat it like all implements and esoterica are basically one item, but thematically is very different).
And while I agree a strict reading of RAW doesn't permit you to swap implements for using reactions, I also agree you shouldn't read it so strictly and there is plenty of evidence to support the intent that it was intended to be allowed.
Hey there, just stopping in to say that shield has been confirmed as the new implement, which helps this general sort of build out quite a bit! There are also magical banners, so that even if you don't use the regalia as a banner, you can still have something that gives a buff to allies.