After re-reading through the class I find it very difficult that a class with so many bells and whistles as Oracle can be seen as inferior to a class like Sorcerer. Super not all of the Mysteries can feel good but neither can all the Bloodlines of Sorcerer but for whatever reason Oracle is considered worse but yet has a potentially better starting set up of 3 slots at level 1, 8 hit points, Light armor as well as the same saves. The only things they trade is auto-locked to Divine List and -1 status damage on their slot spells but generally +2 AC and +2 Hit points...
What do Sorcerers get at level 1 which is superior to Oracle? Lets see... Chose of Spell Tradition (They both can get Heal if they wanted), +1 Status to damage or Healing. (Okay that's not terrible).
Is there something I am missing with Oracle? Or is it the fact I never seen Divine Sorcerers in any discussion. Therefor the argument isn't Oracle vs Sorcerer but rather Oracle vs Divine Sorcerer which makes it more clear Oracle is the better option?
Oracles actually have better saves than sorcerers since their will save scales up to master.
If you look purely at the spellcasting chassis, oracle is the best caster in the game right now. There's only two other 4 slot casters (if you count wizard as 4 slot caster) and both of them are limited in their spell choices. The oracle can freely choose all four spells to add to their repertoire per level and even get their mystery spells and those from divine access at level 11. That's by far the biggest and most flexible repertoire in the game right now.
All this plus the high end of AC, HP and saves among the casters gives the class a very strong chassis.
The rest of the class falls a bit flat by comparison. The cursebound abilities are nice, but when the high-ish level flame oracle in my last campaign was remastered, he didn't pick up a single cursebound feat since spells are still stronger and so plentiful that he never felt the need to use cursebound - other than the occasional Foretell Harm which he got from his mystery. And that one is usually weaker than what a sorcerer gets.
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It's very much a perception thing. I haven't seen many people claim the Oracle is weaker than the Sorcerer post-remaster, but I've seen people like the Sorcerer a lot more than the Oracle, because all of the Sorcerer's components mesh well together and are used naturally. Meanwhile, the Oracle's curse is very easy to ignore and many of its mysteries are best played by not triggering their curse at all, so the end result often ends up being a generic divine caster. A really statistically powerful divine caster, but a generic one all the same.
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Currently, the oracles are the best “divine sorcerers” of the game.
The point is the “divine” here. Not everyone wants to play with divine tradition, even with oracles having a better chassis. Sorcerers are able to choose their tradition and have divine potency that is attractive for blasters and some strong offensive bloodlines that improve the damage or saves even more and this calls a lot of attention for them.
The only real “problem” about the oracles post-remaster is that they lose most of their mechanical identity that made them oracles. Now they look more like a super-divine sorcerer than ever.
It isn't a mechanical issue anymore, and I think that no one complains about this.
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The only real “problem” about the oracles post-remaster is that they lose most of their mechanical identity that made them oracles. Now they look more like a super-divine sorcerer than ever.
It isn't a mechanical issue anymore, and I think that no one complains about this.
^ This. This is the part you're missing, OP. People don't see Oracle as inferior because of power level anymore. People see Oracle as inferior because all the most interesting parts and the class identity were eviscerated in the remaster, making it a really effective generic spellcaster.
The key thing is that if you look at the raw power of the class... yeah, it stacks up quite well. But that isn't what people dislike about it. People dislike how it doesn't adhere to the identity of what they want out of an Oracle (and what they were given in the past) and how some of the mysteries just flat out don't do what their own description says they do.
Sorcerer's class mechanics fulfill the class fantasy and what it promises. Oracle doesn't anymore. That is where they compare unfavorably and what drives a lot of the complaints about Oracle. It's not a power issue at all. If you ask people who don't like remaster Oracle why, "it's weak compared to other casters" won't be the answer you get back.
People don't rate or play classes based solely on power: how it feels to play and if it fulfills the fantasy/narrative you want also matter. Remaster Oracle's problem is here.
Or is it the fact I never seen Divine Sorcerers in any discussion. Therefor the argument isn't Oracle vs Sorcerer but rather Oracle vs Divine Sorcerer which makes it more clear Oracle is the better option?
Divine Sorcerer is by far the least common Sorcerer in my experience. There's probably several reasons for that, including at launch the Divine list being the weakest one. That largely isn't an issue today, though I still wouldn't pick it if my goal was to make a blaster given its generally limited options in that department vs Arcane/Primal.
The fact that Oracle is effectively a tougher Divine Sorcerer is probably also a factor.
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Thank you everyone who posted so far! I been reading through the class last night only to ended up realizing Oracles make the best "Divine Sorcerers" then after reading your posts I realized cursebound and the flavor of most of the mysteries were cut extremely short and regardless of if the class is powerful if all the mechanics don't work well it feels bad. A similar thing happens with Magus and Arcane Cascade, no one I know uses it because it either doesn't fit in an action rotation or mechanically is weak.
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Thank you everyone who posted so far! I been reading through the class last night only to ended up realizing Oracles make the best "Divine Sorcerers" then after reading your posts I realized cursebound and the flavor of most of the mysteries were cut extremely short and regardless of if the class is powerful if all the mechanics don't work well it feels bad. A similar thing happens with Magus and Arcane Cascade, no one I know uses it because it either doesn't fit in an action rotation or mechanically is weak.I never played a pre-master Oracle. Remastered one looks really cool to me. I think maybe it feels bad mostly/only to players with expectations of the old one?
There's no question that people who had their PFS Oracles forcibly converted to remaster and basically had to retire them because the new version flat out didn't work with the concept are the least happy (especially since the remaster FAQ initially said that wouldn't happen).
A lot of what you could do before can't be done now. Some of it can still be done but doesn't work as well. Oracle builds that leaned heavily into unique mystery/curse benefits largely don't work anymore. Some mysteries were really big on this and those ones took it on the chin. Others weren't impacted that much.
If you're making a new one now and your expectation is in line with what the class offers? Yes, you'll probably do fine since its meeting your expectations. But even in that case there's some mysteries that don't really deliver on their theme and so if you want to lean into that, you're going to have problems. The worst offenders:
- Battle because it has arguably the worst focus spell in the entire game in Weapon Trance and also because it's just not doing anything in regards to what it claims to be about until higher level features. It requires multiple feat investments in weapon and armor proficiencies to really function the way the book suggests it should. Hell, there's a sample Battle Oracle in PC2 wearing armor that a Battle Oracle can't wear without either a dedication or two general feats to get heavy armor proficiency (the sample build ignores this). So the book itself is setting an expectation that the mystery doesn't deliver on.
- Life because it's first focus spell is Life Link and it's first Cursebound ability is Nudge the Scales... and the two anti-synergize. Using any Curseboound ability makes you resistant to healing, which makes using Life Link a terrible idea as it's flat out less healing efficient than just healing the damaged players directly (not to mention it scales up to absolutely huge amounts). Setting aide how much worse this is than the old curse (which let you do some really neat things), Life isn't even particularly better at healing than any other Oracle since Tempest can also get Waters of Creation and doesn't make itself healing resistant by using it. (This one is extra frustrating because "Life Link Oracle" was such a popular PF1 Oracle and they basically shredded that in the remaster.)
- Ancestors because the interesting mechanic was both made into a feat anyone can take and nerfed (and it was already pretty hard to play well), but also because it has by far the most punishing curse and doesn't really get anything for it. Clumsy will straight up get you crit into the ground if you stack it up. This is just playing on hard mode without the really thematic stuff to make it worth doing that.
Compare to say Cosmos, which has a basically irrelevant curse so you can spam Cursebound abilities with impunity. I don't consider that a good thing given how out of whack the class balance is internally and how you can render a core mechanic basically meaningless, but there's no question it's powerful having so many resources. (Cosmos is pretty good in general although it doesn't have much of a theme anymore.)
Now if you want say a Flames or Tempest Oracle and you're building a character around that now? You'll probably have a great time with it because those will deliver pretty well on your expectations going in.
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The problem is that remaster changed the oracle hardly yet doesn't solve its main problem that was the fact that some mysteries simply doesn't worth.
The class get a general power up to justify the fact that focus spell auto-improvement isn't a thing anymore and shuffle its cursebound making them some kind of extra special focus spells. But kept the main issues that many of its mysteries simply doesn't worth and now not even remember the class thematic anymore.
Yet I still play with an oracle. I still think that it is more stronger and interesting than a divine sorcerer.
My only reason to not play with oracles today is fully personal, that is the fact that I prefer to play with primal sorcerers because they have stronger elemental spells and still can heal. Maybe in a fully undead/fiend focused campaign I may choose to play as oracle but in such campaings I probably will be tempted to play as cleric instead. 🤷
Now if you want say a Flames or Tempest Oracle and you're building a character around that now? You'll probably have a great time with it because those will deliver pretty well on your expectations going in.Eugh, no. My begrudgingly remastered Oracle was a Tempest Oracle, in OoA (wild magic, Oracles, made sense to me). See, originally, Tempest Oracles got damage boosts on water/air spells and nothing else. Specifically, electricity damage, which, well, clockworks (I started this before Rage of Elements and the metal element which gave easy access to electric on damage boosters). But also you would scour the books for weird water/air tagged spells to get your bonus and that was cool! This was, again, before RoE made water/air/earth cool; previously they were basically worse than fire/cold/electricity except that you couldn't pick cold/electricity for most things.
Now they... don't. They get early access to the same cursebound feat that gives extra damage to everything that everyone can get, and they get a powerful electricity spell in their extra top level slot that just flat out made all the weird niche spells that you used to pick up not worth it. Their focus spell is emblematic of what I meant about things staying the same on surface but actually being s+~* because the synergy is stripped out - it's a one action water touch spell with piddly damage, which used to be Real Cool because you could double tap your damage booster with it and a two-action spell. Now your damage booster is Fortell Harm, which makes the target immune to it after use, and also ups your curse twice rather than once if you did that.
Sure, you can spam thunderstrike, but so can the Metal Elemental sorcerer, and they don't shrivel up in a corner after using their damage booster thrice. I guess you can cast heroism and they can't, but you know who else can cast heroism and has extra top-rank spells? The cleric! And Divine Mysteries just added four deities that grant thunderstrike!
Oof, that's rough. :( Tempest looked good on the surface but it's not one I played before so I didn't catch those details.
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Is there something I am missing with Oracle? Or is it the fact I never seen Divine Sorcerers in any discussion. Therefor the argument isn't Oracle vs Sorcerer but rather Oracle vs Divine Sorcerer which makes it more clear Oracle is the better option?
1) The best features of the Oracle can be poached. They are available as level one feat (via archetype). The higher level Oracle feature are just not that good beyond the spell themselves. Whereas Sorcerous Potency can't be poached. Yes the Oracle has the advatages you mention but I can get armour from a feat. So I'd rather play the Sorcerer with an Oracle archetype than vice versa.
2) The shadow of the Cloisted Cleric with all those free Heals. Again I can poach the only things I want out of the Oracle. So I'd rather play the Cleric with an Oracle archetype than vice versa.
3) The unique cool builds of the old Oracle are gone.
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Foretell Harm stacks with sorcerous potency. It's better to be a sorcerer and dip into oracle for maximum spell damage. It can be a brutal damage combination.
Hahahaha...Dang it. Is level 1 the only good level of Oracle?
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Hahahaha...Dang it. Is level 1 the only good level of Oracle?
It's the best level for Cursebound abilities by far. Every option is good or great. This is a a problem both in a sense of a lack of progression (higher level feats shouldn't feel worse than level 1 feats but the Cursebound stuff is heavily front loaded) but also that it makes it easy for the archetype to grab the best ones.
There's a mix of good and bad ones past that, but even that largely ends after Debilitating Dichotomy at 8. I find everything from level 10 up ranges from "meh" to "why?".
The class itself has some good feats though. Mysterious Repertoire, Divine Effusion, and Gifted Power are all great. Notice how they're all related to Spellcasting and not curses?
Hell, until level 11 the archetype can use its Cursebound abilities the same number of times as a full Oracle.
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I personally feel like it’s more of a poaching issue with the Oracle Dedication than just the Oracle itself.
Any class can just grab Flames Mystery as their archetype curse as 1/2 Fire damage per round at lvl. 4 (where you’ll have 36-44ish HP) is hardly an issue.
I think instead, they should have you pick a Mystery (simply for your cantrip/spell/revelation spell option), but give a dedication specific Curse (something like, you gain -X untyped penalty to all checks or whatever) equal to your Cursebound value. That way, yes, you can use Oracle Cursebound’s power as well as them, but it stings more on non-Oracles than actual Oracles.
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They also took my least favorite piece of opt-in complexity and made it mandatory complexity: Divine Access. While an extremely powerful feat(ure), it sucks to combo through the spell list of every diety you share a domain with to try and find the perfect combination of three spells.
They also took my least favorite piece of opt-in complexity and made it mandatory complexity: Divine Access. While an extremely powerful feat(ure), it sucks to combo through the spell list of every diety you share a domain with to try and find the perfect combination of three spells.
Seriously, Divine Access is literally the most complicated thing in the entire class at this point. You have to go find which deities grant the domains your mystery gives (which basically requires using Archives of Nethys or having multiple books open simultaneously), then go look at every deity to see what spells they grant, then compare all those. Looking at Ancestors, one of their domains (Family) has 71 deities that grant it. AoN puts the combined list at an eye-watering 148 deities before you start filtering them down, but filtering them down is itself more complexity.
It's a bloated mess of a feature and one of the best times to use a guide because it'll give you a smaller list of options. I'm not sure they thought through what adding more domains while making this a core feature would actually do to the class complexity (while also taking away the initial domain spell we had before and thus making having more domains less interesting).
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I personally feel like it’s more of a poaching issue with the Oracle Dedication than just the Oracle itself.
Any class can just grab Flames Mystery as their archetype curse as 1/2 Fire damage per round at lvl. 4 (where you’ll have 36-44ish HP) is hardly an issue.
The old version had mystery benefits that the archetype didn't grant, so there was a pretty significant point of differentiation there which no longer exists.
As Ryangwy said: the core problem with Oracle Dedication is that it gives you the distinct feature of the class and is just as good at it as the class itself. The choice of mystery effectively means absolutely nothing to the archetype since the mystery itself doesn't matter at all: they're really just picking a curse to live with when Cursebound kicks in.
I think instead, they should have you pick a Mystery (simply for your cantrip/spell/revelation spell option), but give a dedication specific Curse (something like, you gain -X untyped penalty to all checks or whatever) equal to your Cursebound value. That way, yes, you can use Oracle Cursebound’s power as well as them, but it stings more on non-Oracles than actual Oracles.
This would solve the problem in that it would make it one of the worst dedications in the game. Maxing it at Cursebound 1 would be easier since it would allow less usage.
There's multiple issues with the class, but how what should be the distinctive class feature is so easy for other classes to get and use equally well is definitely on the list.
You should never make a Multiclass dedication useless or incredibly weak. Oracle is good and has useful feats early levels. So much so that I am considering it for my Barbarian in a dual-class game since Nudge the Scale is just really good.
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I definitely agree that archetypes should offer a good enough bite of what they promise to be worth picking, though I also feel that has to be counterbalanced by a need for multiclass archetypes to not give so much of the original class's benefits as to make the archetype more desirable than the class itself. This used to be the case for the premaster Alchemist, and is currently the case for both the Oracle and the Psychic. In the Oracle's case, the full benefits of their curse are encapsulated in several of their most accessible cursebound feats, including Foretell Harm, Nudge the Scales, and Whispers of Weakness, and to make matters worse a character with the Oracle MC archetype will be able to use the exact same number of cursebound feats as an actual Oracle all the way up to and including level 10, effectively the entire length of many APs. Despite the Oracle's overinflated stats, it's trivially easy for a Sorcerer to MC into a Cosmos Oracle and poach all of the latter class's best bits for themselves at essentially no drawback, which I'd say is one of the reasons why the Oracle is often perceived as a class to archetype into right now rather than pick.