Dropping spell maximums

[messy]

As I understand it, the reason many spells become less effective at high levels is because the designers of dnd 3e did not compensate for higher hit points due to dropping name level’s small amounts.

So... what if we drop spell dice maximums?

A 20th level wizard’s fireball would do 20d6 damage and he would fire ten magic missiles on a single casting. His 20th level cleric friend’s cure light wounds would heal 1d8+20.

Good idea? Bad idea? Utter madness?

[Azothath]

bad idea

it is actually an intentional D&D3.5 & PF1 control on power. They just weren't uniformly consistent in its use or statistics.

[Pizza Lord]

Bad idea. Not saying it will break your game, but it is not how the game design was balanced. The problem with saying "So what if fireball deals 20d6 fire damage? There are spells that do more damage that a 20th-level caster can use." is that most people start comparing it to higher level spells that the caster can use. And fireball isn't even the issue, since you can still roll low or average, and there's still a save for half (or evasion).

The issue is when you get into things like ray of enfeeblement or other effects that aren't pure damage. The truth is that most spells over 4th cap at around caster level 20 already (or even 18 if it's an 'every 3' or 'every 6 level' spell. It's really only the lower level spells that do that, and the reason is to keep from being comparable to higher-level spells (and you can use more lower level spells). Vampiric touch is 3rd and still caps at 20.

That said, if you think a specific spell should be expanded, go ahead, but just blanket opening them all up, not a good idea.

[TxSam88]

I personally don't see an issue with it. Most damage spells are already pretty weak at mid-high level anyway. Fireball tops out at 60 damage, 30 (or zero) with a save, 35 on average (17.5 or zero with a save), and most bad guys seem to pass the save more often than not. for single creatures, I get as much damage on average out of magic missile (17.5 with no save allowed). We've already been experimenting with higher spell DC's (10+ highest spell level you can cast + stat mod), and it hasn't broken anything yet.

I'd need to look at non-damaging spells before I make my final judgement - but for damage dealing spells - I really see no issue.

[Melkiador]

The main problem is that high level spell casters aren’t in need of buffs.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I will go with Utter Madness. A 3rd level spell is not supposed to outright kill multiple 20th level characters.

[TxSam88]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

I will go with Utter Madness. A 3rd level spell is not supposed to outright kill multiple 20th level characters.

1. Why not? especially if it's cast by a 20th level character?

2. I can't find a spell by that name, can you point me to it? I'd like to be able to take a look and see if it would be a horrible spell to lift the maximums on.

[Set]

The only case where I'd agree with that, would be cure light wounds at 20th level curing 1d8+20 hit points. I'm kind of okay with that.

But 20d6 fireballs, or shooting 10 magic missiles at 19th level?**

There are already a *plethora* of ways to increase damage done, such as some School, Bloodline or Favored Class bonuses, Intensify Spell, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, etc. and I feel like they'd *all* need to be re-examined if dice caps were just busted all over the place.

Sounds like too much work / risk, for too little benefit.

**Amusingly, Arduin Grimoire did this very thing, but went even scarily farther, all the way up to 100th level!, and, worse, said it applied even to spells like ice storm, which, under that example given, would do *another 3d10* for every level over 7th. So, a 20th level Wizard would be doing 42d10 damage!

Ah, Arduin Grimoire. At least the Phraints were cool! :)

[Goth Guru]

Some people started screaming bloody murder when I suggested an epic feat, maximum remover. Maybe add 1 to the maximum per additional spell level it is cast at. You need maximize spell as a prerequisite. I would call it ease maximum.

[TxSam88]

Set wrote:

But 20d6 fireballs, or shooting 10 magic missiles at 19th level?**

Fireball: 120 damage max - 75 on average. 37 or zero after a save - not considering evasion, improved evasion, DR, SR, etc.

magic missile: 50 damage max, 35 on average

pretty much crap damage for a 20th level caster.

[OmniMage]

I think if you get rid of damage caps, then low level spells can become more damaging than high level spells because of metamagic. Empower spell and maximize spell could really push damage potential of a mere fireball that has no damage caps.

Another thing to note is that the DC of spells won't increase with the damage. Spell DC is 10 + spell level + caster ability modifier + other factors.

[messy]

Enhanced cures does this.

[Azothath]

messy wrote:

Enhanced cures does this.

that does not alter spell dice maximums, only the bonus due to level. Perhaps you misread it. {fixed your link} Rereading your original post I can see you treat different terms the same when they're not (ye olde apples and oranges).

Read Intensified Spell Metamagic feat, Common Terms, and Bonus Types and that will help your understanding of PF1 terms.
RAW is what it is and it's a bit messy.

some useful links for PFS or when you need to see a Paizo rule beyond an FAQ
Additional Resources note the handy listing on the right, many APs & blogs!
Campaign Clarifications basically for unclear RAW, PPCs, APs, etc which are beyond the FAQs scope.
Archives of Nethys - Wiz spells by school(there are other starting points) note that stuff is also listed by resource(book) which is handy when dealing with Add'l Res.

Items that can save you thread 2019 a catch-all of low cost Items.

[Phoebus Alexandros]

This, IMHO, has less to do with the design of spells of a given spell level and more to do with overall game design--and adventure design.

At the risk of sounding like Captain Obvious, an unaugmented fireball wasn't really meant to deal with high-level monsters/NPCs. Higher-level spells are meant to do that. If, past a certain point, adventures don't feature lower-level monsters/NPCs (whether as fodder or whatever else), then, yes, lower level spells will not get as much use. Given that about half the encounters from, e.g., Crown of Fangs (designed for 14th level characters) are CR 8-10, I don't think that's the intent.