You can use Paragon Surge without having to be a half-elf?


Rules Questions


"You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell."

If you cast Alter Self (which is a polymorph spell) to turn into a half-elf, could you then cast Paragon Surge? You count as a half-elf at the time of casting, and you could allow Paragon Surge to work and Alter Self to wear off.

So, my Aasimar Sorcerer could burn some spell slots to gain a temporary feat?


I don't think so. At least, I don't think magic would work that way.

I did work on a new spell that gave you a bonus feat. I don't think I finished it. It was going to be like paragon surge in that it was level 3 spell but with a longer duration. I'll go look for it later.


Here is a thread where I was asking questions of paragon surge for the purpose of making a new spell.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43yff?Is-Paragon-Surge-OP


Most polymorph spells do not change your type or subtype. You take on the form of a creature that belongs to that type, but you don’t gain it yourself.


Mechanical Pear wrote:

...If you cast Alter Self (which is a polymorph spell) to turn into a half-elf, could you then cast Paragon Surge? You count as a half-elf at the time of casting, and you could allow Paragon Surge to work and Alter Self to wear off.

...

yes - a spellcaster with Alter Self ongoing can cast Paragon Surge but if he cannot meet the requirements of the spell, then the spell would fail/have no effect. Since polymorphs do not change a creature's type then they cannot become a humanoid half-elf.

Essentially an aasimar casting Alter Self and then Paragon Surge will end both spells. In a nice ruling only the Paragon Surge fails.

The usual end-run around this is human's adoptive parentage BUT half-elves have human and elf subtypes which prevent this choice.


No, that does not work. But if your Aasimar Sorcerer has the Scion of Humanity race trait to count as a Human (which is usually popular just so you can use the Human race's favored class bonus) he could use the Racial Heritage feat to qualify as a half-elf for Paragon Surge.


Tom Sampson wrote:
No, that does not work. But if your Aasimar Sorcerer has the Scion of Humanity race trait to count as a Human (which is usually popular just so you can use the Human race's favored class bonus) he could use the Racial Heritage feat to qualify as a half-elf for Paragon Surge.

It is kind of funny that something that convoluted actually works where a polymorph spell does not.

For completeness, I'll bring up an android trait that touches on this issue:

Quote:

Cellular Match [Link]

Source People of the Stars pg. 7
Requirement(s) Android
Whenever you are affected by a polymorph spell or effect, your nanites adjust completely at a molecular level. For the duration of the polymorph effect, you are treated as only a humanoid for the purpose of effects that target creatures by type. For example, a ranger’s favored enemy bonus against constructs wouldn’t apply to you while you are polymorphed, but nor would spells such as make whole. This trait modifies part of the android’s constructed racial trait, but otherwise that trait is unchanged (a polymorphed android still can’t gain morale bonuses, is still immune to fear, and so on).

Notice that even if the android polymorphs into an animal, it is still of the humanoid type.


Clerics with the self-realization subdomain (Liberation or Strength domains) get it as a 4th level domain spell that specifically states it always matches their race.


I remember Paragon Surge being a problematic spell....I think it must have been before a clarification that specified the feat you gained was always the same (on a given day). Before that I recall people using it to gain a different feat each time it was cast giving them a lot of versatility.


Paragon Surge:T3 spell
ARG FAQ Paragon Surge, 2014 which is now incorporated into the spell description
long thread on Paragon Surge FAQ, 2014

I think as a personal & racial spell it went from 4th to 3rd spell level (the subdomain RAW supports that notion). I don't think you would have seen the churn if it was 4th spell level. The enhancement ability bonuses don't stack with items. At best the situational feat for a spellcaster could be a teamwork or metamagic feat as combat feats are a double edged sword for low BAB classes.


The abuse was buying wands of it (not cheap, but viable) and with a little UMD investment (and maybe a Wand key ring) you could have full BAB classes casting this spell that lasted at least 5 minutes. Pretty useful pre-buff if you wanted an extra feat.


commentary

Claxon wrote:
The abuse was buying wands of it (not cheap, but viable) and with a little UMD investment (and maybe a Wand key ring) you could have full BAB classes casting this spell that lasted at least 5 minutes. Pretty useful pre-buff if you wanted an extra feat.

I can think of more effective 4th level spells for a wand than a Paragon Surge:T4 wand crafted via the subdomain spell. What half-elf full BAB PC build with decent Cha are you thinking?... lol, okay maybe Swashbuckler... I think the concern (post 2014) is more hypothetical than historical or practical.


Claxon wrote:
The abuse was buying wands of it (not cheap, but viable) and with a little UMD investment (and maybe a Wand key ring) you could have full BAB classes casting this spell that lasted at least 5 minutes. Pretty useful pre-buff if you wanted an extra feat.

That does not work unless you are a Half-Elf or have one of those domain variants that match different races. You can activate the wand as though you are a Half-Elf, but you cannot become a valid target for the spell of Paragon Surge as though you are a Half-Elf. It says "half-elf only" under range. One could attempt to split hairs that it does not state this under "target" as it should, but the intent appears clear enough.

And to be honest, when I think of "abuse of Paragon Surge," using it to obtain an extra feat as a martial character is not really the sort of situation that would trouble me.

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:
The abuse was buying wands of it (not cheap, but viable) and with a little UMD investment (and maybe a Wand key ring) you could have full BAB classes casting this spell that lasted at least 5 minutes. Pretty useful pre-buff if you wanted an extra feat.

Before the FAQ, spontaneous spellcasters were using it to take Expanded Arcana and temporarily add one or two spells to their known spells, exactly the ones they needed to resolve a problem. It gave them the versatility of a cleric or wizard with one or more empathy slots to fill as needed, while retaining the benefits of being an oracle or sorcerer.

Generally, way less costly than buying several Pages of spell knowledge.
Doing that had even the benefit


Diego Rossi wrote:
Claxon wrote:
The abuse was buying wands of it (not cheap, but viable) and with a little UMD investment (and maybe a Wand key ring) you could have full BAB classes casting this spell that lasted at least 5 minutes. Pretty useful pre-buff if you wanted an extra feat.

Before the FAQ, spontaneous spellcasters were using it to take Expanded Arcana and temporarily add one or two spells to their known spells, exactly the ones they needed to resolve a problem. It gave them the versatility of a cleric or wizard with one or more empathy slots to fill as needed, while retaining the benefits of being an oracle or sorcerer.

Generally, way less costly than buying several Pages of spell knowledge.
Doing that had even the benefit

Yeah, that was definitely a bigger benefit. It's been years since this was relevant, so my memory on the topic is fuzzy at best.

But the main thing I remembered was abusing it via the extra feat, not the other benefits of the spell.

And to those saying you had to be a half-elf, true. But if you were already playing a half elf, it was a convenient little thing you could do.

Also, you didn't need even a decent charisma (unless you consider not dumping it below 10 to be "decent"). That's what the wand key ring was for. Invest 1 skill rank into UMD. Wand key ring + take 10 allowed any half elf to use the wand (DC 20).

Liberty's Edge

You can't take 10 on UMD.

UMD wrote:
Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can’t aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check.

I don't recall any class or archetype that changes that.

There are several traits to make UMD a class skill, and one to use Intelligence with it, so reaching +9 in the skill requires, at worst, 6 skill points. With that and the ring, you can activate the right wand even with a roll of 1.


Well, you cannot take 10 under ordinary circumstances. The Pathfinder Savant prestige class allows you to take 10 on UMD, except when activating items blindly. It also says a Pathfinder Savant will not automatically fail for rolling a 1 on a UMD check; however, this was never a rule in the first place. It is only that rolling a 1 carries additional penalties should the UMD skill check fail, but a natural roll of 1 would still succeed if the total result is high enough to pass the check. Beyond that, a plain Bard could take 10 on UMD upon reaching level 19. An Archivist Bard could take 10 on any d20 roll starting at level 10, but only a limited number of times per day.


There is the Counterfeit mage rogue, which at level 4 can activate any one wand without a UMD check at all.

The vigilante has a level 9+ social talent that allows for taking 10 on any 4 selected skills.

Skill Familiarity (Ex):
The vigilante choses four skills when he gains this talent. He can take 10 on checks with his chosen skills even when distracted or threatened. If he takes 10 on checks with these skills while not distracted or threatened, he gains a bonus on the check equal to one-quarter his vigilante level (minimum +2). A vigilante must be at least 9th level to select this talent.

Not exactly dips a spontaneous caster would want to make just to spam a wand.


Diego Rossi wrote:

You can't take 10 on UMD.

UMD wrote:
Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can’t aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check.

I don't recall any class or archetype that changes that.

There are several traits to make UMD a class skill, and one to use Intelligence with it, so reaching +9 in the skill requires, at worst, 6 skill points. With that and the ring, you can activate the right wand even with a roll of 1.

My bad, it's been so long since looking at the PF1 rules in depth I forgot that bit.

But to your point, with the wand key ring, and the right trait and a little skill point investment it's trivial to get to a point where you can use it confidently. There's also the fact that depending on how much you want to invest, you could get several wand key rings for several common buff wands. With enough prep time even if you aren't guaranteed a success on each roll, you can spend a minute buffing yourself. The only problem is if you roll a nat 1 which will stop you from using the item for 1 day. So outside of rolling a nat 1, and assuming your trying to buff with minute per level spells it's a pretty viable prebuff plan. And once you get enough ranks, you can even do it mid combat with shorter duration buff spells.

Liberty's Edge

You are unable to use UMD again (for a day) on a specific item only if you roll a nat 1 and fail. As it is a skill check, a nat 1 alone isn't an automatic fail.

The paladin in my group learned craft wand so that he and my magus together were capable of crafting Wands of Shield with a CL of 2 for his use (two minutes was more convenient for buffing).
He produced our CLW wands, too.

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