Increasing fear status & Intimidate

[CountMRVHS]

The Sword Saint is a Samurai archetype that adds an ability called Iaijutsu Strike.

At lvl 5, this strike can make foes shaken, as follows:

"When a sword saint successfully hits with an iaijutsu strike, all foes within 30 feet must succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the sword saint’s class level + the sword saint’s Cha modifier) or become shaken for 1d4+1 rounds."

So, of course the question is, how can we get this to interact with other things to increase that shaken status to frightened?

Intimidate seems like the easiest route, but I'm not sure how it stacks with that ability. There's a line in the d20pfsrd under Intimidate that discusses the demoralize use of the skill:

"You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened."

That second sentence doesn't seem to appear in my actual rulebook, so I'm wondering if it is an errata that has been added, and if anyone can point me to the source? (I've seen some posts suggesting that that sentence was not in fact errata'd, so I want to be sure.)

The second sentence indeed seems to indicate that you can't demoralize (Intimidate) anyone from shaken to frightened, which at first glance seems to contradict with this section on fear (again from the srd):

"Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead."

But I guess we could reconcile both statements by considering the above statement as saying that fear effects *from sources other than demoralize* are cumulative.

So how do you play this?

If we go with the more restrictive ruling - that you can't by default Intimidate someone from shaken to frightened - then I guess we'd need to get stuff like Disheartening Display, then follow up an Iaijutsu Strike with some form of Dazzling Display to push shaken up a step to frightened.

Otherwise, the Signature Skill: Intimidate feat could get someone frightened with just a single Intimidate check... but that doesn't synergize with Iaijutsu Strike (which isn't Intimidate based).

[TxSam88]

remember - official rules are on Articles of Nethys. You might want to go read there first.

"Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition."

[Azothath]

AoN is the official online PRD, so use that. Sometimes all the text isn't online.

→Samurai - Sword Saint arch
→Magus - Kensai arch {same word, no shaken condition}
generally Fear is one of four Conditions.
Intimidate skill has the Demoralize action which has limitations, Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
thus it is not a different ruling per se, RAW has different processes for skills than spells.

The Terrifying Iaijutsu (Ex) text contains "devastates the morale" thus it is demoralize.

[Melkiador]

TxSam88 wrote:

remember - official rules are on Articles of Nethys. You might want to go read there first.

"Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition."

I take that to mean that demoralize doesn't stack with itself, but you can still use it and another source of shaken to get a stronger fear effect.

Enforcer: If you want demoralize, this is fast and easy.

Mock Gladiator: And this trait pairs very well with Enforcer

[Melkiador]

Azothath wrote:

The Terrifying Iaijutsu (Ex) text contains "devastates the morale" thus it is demoralize.

That is quite a stretch. If it were meant to be a demoralize, then it would have used the keyword demoralize.

And frankly, it's not worth going out of the way for a GM to prevent this. I've tried similar builds and they don't perform that well in reality. Maybe if you have a campaign of nothing but solo boss fights, who aren't immune to mind effecting

[Mysterious Stranger]

The limitation of intimidate not being able to create stronger fear effects is a case of the specific overriding the general.

Instead of Enforcer I would suggest Cornugon Smash. It can be used with any melee weapon. It does require you have and be using power attack, but most melee focused martial characters will be doing that.

[CountMRVHS]

OK, so checking on AoN I noticed this discrepancy between AoN and the d20pfsrd. Here's AoN on demoralizing (using Intimidate) :

Quote:

Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.

And here's d20pfsrd:

Quote:

You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.

Success: If you are successful, the target is shaken for one round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.

Fail: The opponent is not shaken.

So the AoN does not have the following sentence:

"This shaken condition doesn't stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened."

Just looking at AoN, I'd have to agree with Melkiador: it reads as though you can't just demoralize a foe into shaken, and then demoralize again into frightened.

That makes sense to me. After all, we have feats like Disheartening Display which seem tailor-made so that a character can Dazzling Display (demoralize) a creature to shaken, and then Dazzle again to frightened.

But the lack of that sentence about 'not stacking with other shaken conditions' on the official AoN makes me wonder about whether demoralize can in fact stack with *other* shaken effects - such as that provided by Iaijutsu Strike's Terrifying Iaijutsu. (I have to agree with Melkiador again here: Terrifying Iaijutsu is not keyed to Intimidate and seems distinct from the demoralize action.)

So let's say I have Terrifying Iaijutsu and Dreadful Carnage:

Quote:

Prerequisites: Str 15, Power Attack, Furious Focus, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: Whenever you reduce an enemy to 0 or fewer hit points, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize all enemies within 30 feet as a free action. Enemies that cannot see both you and the enemy you reduced to 0 or fewer hit points are unaffected.

Say I've hit with Iaijutsu Strike and made enemies within 30' shaken for a few rounds. Within that time, I drop an enemy and trigger Dreadful Carnage. Are those shaken enemies now frightened, or can I not combine those?

What about if the actions are reversed: Dreadful Carnage first, then Iaijutsu Strike?

Quote:

Instead of Enforcer I would suggest Cornugon Smash. It can be used with any melee weapon. It does require you have and be using power attack, but most melee focused martial characters will be doing that.

Definitely got my eye on Cornugon Smash ... plus Hurtful to get a second hit in with Iaijutsu Strike :)

[Name Violation]

you might want to check the rogue archetype thug

"Frightening (Ex): Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces trapfinding."

In PFS i used a cavalier with order of the cockatrice and a level of thug rogue to great effect

[CountMRVHS]

Another way to think about it might be like so. Taking this from the section on fear:

Quote:

Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

This seems to describe a situation where a character might cast, say, Cause Fear (to make a foe frightened), and then cast it again to increase that foe to panicked.

Since Archives of Nethys does not say demoralize (from Intimidate) doesn't stack with other fear effects, this seems to leave open a situation where, say, one PC casts Cause Fear and another PC Intimidates a frightened foe to make him panicked.

If that is acceptable, then I would wonder where the Sword Saint's Terrifying Iaijutsu fits in. It's not an Intimidate check, so it's not a demoralize effect. It's an Extraordinary ability, so seems to fit more in the same category as the other things mentioned in the 'fear' article on Archives of Nethys.

So, if two consecutive Cause Fears can raise a target's fear level by one step, two Terrifying Iaijutsus could maybe do the same thing, no?

Additionally, if an Intimidate (demoralize) check after a Cause Fear spell could raise a target's fear level a step, an Intimidate (demoralize) check after Terrifying Iaijutsu could do the same thing.

If there is any other rules I'm missing here (or misinterpreting), please let me know!

Quote:

you might want to check the rogue archetype thug

That is a great option - even gets some sneak attack (could pair nicely with Warrior Poet/Order of the Blossom?). I have a hard time dipping, though - I hate 'delaying' higher level features, even though I know it's often extremely effective & in many cases mechanically superior!