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Is there some kind of community consensus how Vindicator's Mark is supposed to be adjudicated?
At present, because it involves a Spell Attack Roll, it takes MAP, but since it doesn't have the Attack trait, it doesn't give MAP. In addition, no Critical Success condition was specified.
Are we supposed to assume the Vindicator's Mark doubles damage on a Critical Success and gives MAP since it has a Spell Attack Roll? Or are we supposed to assume that the lack of the Attack roll and missing Critical Success effect are meant to counterbalance each other to make this more consistent?
I was unable to find any errata on this topic, and given how central it is to playing a Vindicator starting low levels, in the absence of an erratum it'd be useful to have a general community consensus on the best practice for this. While this isn't the first time spells with Spell Attack Rolls don't have the Attack trait (see Purifying Icicle) or the opposite (see Clownish Curse), it's the first time it's been accompanied by the absence of any declared Critical Success effect, and since it's a central class feature, it's not something a Vindicator player can just completely choose to ignore to avoid the trouble.
Is there some kind of community consensus how Vindicator's Mark is supposed to be adjudicated?
At present, because it involves a Spell Attack Roll, it takes MAP, but since it doesn't have the Attack trait...
I think the lack of the attack trait on the Archive's of Nethys entry is an error on AoN. The Demiplane Nexus entry shows it with the attack trait.
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I think the lack of the attack trait on the Archive's of Nethys entry is an error on AoN. The Demiplane Nexus entry shows it with the attack trait.Is there some kind of community consensus how Vindicator's Mark is supposed to be adjudicated?
At present, because it involves a Spell Attack Roll, it takes MAP, but since it doesn't have the Attack trait...
AoN agrees with the physical War of Immortals book: no attack trait. I don't see anything in the errata, either.
So I don't know where Demiplane is getting that from. Right now based on the first party sources available, AoN is right and Demiplane is wrong.
I feel like it probably should be there given how spell attacks work and would run it that way simply because it makes the spell work consistently with everything else, though.
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The crit success thing is really odd because, just to confirm, I tried to find something that's unambigously a spell attack roll with the attack trait and all of them specifiy that something does double damage on a crit, even if they don't do anything else.
The attack trait being absent is probably a mistake, but I'm not sure what to make of the crit success thing. It could also be a mistake, I guess, but it's hard to know for certain.
I think if I were running for a vindicator I'd just treat it as an attack trait and give it the double damage on a crit. Seems like the easiest way to do it.
AoN agrees with the physical War of Immortals book: no attack trait. I don't see anything in the errata, either.
So I don't know where Demiplane is getting that from. Right now based on the first party sources available, AoN is right and Demiplane is wrong.
Interesting bit of information! Thanks for that!
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I remember being corrected recently that spells don't automatically double their damage on a crit. Each spell has to have their critical success effect listed or at least mention in the spell text that the damage doubles on a crit. Otherwise the spell simply has a success effect that is used for critical success as well.
However, how I would run Vindicator's Mark:
1) Add the Attack trait, because that is how spells with spell attack rolls work.
2a) Double the initial damage on a critical hit because that is how attack rolls generally work.
2b) Neither the ongoing bonus damage or the damage that you get by dismissing the spell are doubled on a crit.
Parts 1 and 2b I am pretty firm on. For part 2a I could be swayed that the written rules text for the spell is not in error by missing a critical success entry and the spell has no additional effect on a crit - just the standard success effect.
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The crit success thing is really odd because, just to confirm, I tried to find something that's unambigously a spell attack roll with the attack trait and all of them specifiy that something does double damage on a crit, even if they don't do anything else.
The attack trait being absent is probably a mistake, but I'm not sure what to make of the crit success thing. It could also be a mistake, I guess, but it's hard to know for certain.
I think if I were running for a vindicator I'd just treat it as an attack trait and give it the double damage on a crit. Seems like the easiest way to do it.
Yeah. The general rule on doubling damage on crit is not a critical success rule but a Strike rule, which is why it doesn't apply to either Spells or Impulses - and therefore needs explicit mentions all the time.
It feels like the author for this either never knew or forgot about it, and assumed the Strike rule applies to *all* criticals.
Personally, it feels like the doubled initial is likely intended, doubled damage per hit I have no idea is intended or not, and double dismissal is almost certainly not intended. At the same time, the Attack trait feels like it was intended, even though it's not there.
I'm also leaning towards initial double, standard for both per hit and dismissal unless later errata says otherwise. But it's kind of annoying that there's no real confirmation for this even after Immortals has already gotten one erratum pass.
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The crit success thing is really odd because, just to confirm, I tried to find something that's unambigously a spell attack roll with the attack trait and all of them specifiy that something does double damage on a crit, even if they don't do anything else.
The attack trait being absent is probably a mistake, but I'm not sure what to make of the crit success thing. It could also be a mistake, I guess, but it's hard to know for certain.
I think if I were running for a vindicator I'd just treat it as an attack trait and give it the double damage on a crit. Seems like the easiest way to do it.
Yeah. The general rule on doubling damage on crit is not a critical success rule but a Strike rule, which is why it doesn't apply to either Spells or Impulses - and therefore needs explicit mentions all the time.
It feels like the author for this either never knew or forgot about it, and assumed the Strike rule applies to *all* criticals.
Personally, it feels like the doubled initial is likely intended, doubled damage per hit I have no idea is intended or not, and double dismissal is almost certainly not intended. At the same time, the Attack trait feels like it was intended, even though it's not there.
I'm also leaning towards initial double, standard for both per hit and dismissal unless later errata says otherwise. But it's kind of annoying that there's no real confirmation for this even after Immortals has already gotten one erratum pass.
Yeah hard agree. My usual rule of thumb for adjudication is "What would I assume this does if I skim read it", and attack trait and initial damage double would be that.
Molten Wire or whatever the fire/metal impulse was called suffered from the same issues, has that been errated? If so, I'd simply use the same logic there.
Live Wire? I don't think it ever had these issues. It had the attack trait and also specified what happens on a crit. Live Wire's issue was that its scaling was completely out of whack compared to other cantrips, and that did get an errata.
Molten Wire or whatever the fire/metal impulse was called suffered from the same issues, has that been errated? If so, I'd simply use the same logic there.Live Wire? I don't think it ever had these issues. It had the attack trait and also specified what happens on a crit. Live Wire's issue was that its scaling was completely out of whack compared to other cantrips, and that did get an errata.
Molten Wire (level 6 Kineticist)
It has the Attack trait & uses an Impulse Attack roll. It does immediate damage, but also later damage w/ no info on what happens to either damage on a crit hit.There doesn't seem to be a general rule for Impulses doubling on a crit. And if there were or one were to assume one, would that double the later damage as well?
Really interested in how this shakes out, seeing as I'm going to be playing a Vindicator soon-ish.
It kinda already has shaken out.
There are about 5 people in the thread all agreeing that running it by adding the attack trait and doubling the initial damage on a crit is reasonable.
And no one has proposed an alternative that they are willing to defend as being a better alternative.
Molten Wire or whatever the fire/metal impulse was called suffered from the same issues, has that been errated? If so, I'd simply use the same logic there.Live Wire? I don't think it ever had these issues. It had the attack trait and also specified what happens on a crit. Live Wire's issue was that its scaling was completely out of whack compared to other cantrips, and that did get an errata.Molten Wire (level 6 Kineticist)
It has the Attack trait & uses an Impulse Attack roll. It does immediate damage, but also later damage w/ no info on what happens to either damage on a crit hit.There doesn't seem to be a general rule for Impulses doubling on a crit. And if there were or one were to assume one, would that double the later damage as well?
Ah. Yeah, that doesn't seem to do anything different on a crit. I can't say I care for that, crits are fun.
I'm not sure how I'd handle the extra damage with a crit on this one. Persistent damage that isn't the result of a crit generally would double, but this isn't technically persistent damage either. These little inconsistences sure do add up, eh?
I'll be honest I already have altered how Vindicator's Mark works in my game; I'd do whatever ruling made the vindicator stronger.
Nothing feels worse than your core class mechanic, supposed to evoke the class fantasy of the 1e inquisitor, being able to just miss and then rendering you sorta pointless for a whole fight or so.
I'm playing with a vindicator now and it is so sad to watch them miss. Imagine if Precision rangers had to roll a separate check to be able to add the d8 to their attack rolls but it used their class DC instead?
Just let it crit and do double and not apply MAP. They're already spending two actions to turn on their instinct using a missable and focus-limited spell.