I have to imagine that after the question of Isger is answered, something outside of the control of Cheliax and Andoran (and Isger) would happen that would get all these sides to pay attention to whatever that is.
Like if after the Isger thing ends then Mothune (and/or Oprak) invades Cheliax and Taldor attacks Andoran, then Cheliax and Andoran might decide to just call it (since their fight was about Warshards/Isger) and then defend their other flank.
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From the Hellfire Crisis page : "prevent the diabolic forces of Hell from overtaking the world."
Maybe Hell is getting tired of Cheliax keeping on losing. So the devils arrange behind the scenes for an excuse to take a far more active hand in the setting.
And what better for this than a good old war?
Szuriel might even be willing to act as a deniable agent to ignite the conflict.
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From the Hellfire Crisis page : "prevent the diabolic forces of Hell from overtaking the world."
Maybe Hell is getting tired of Cheliax keeping on losing. So the devils arrange behind the scenes for an excuse to take a far more active hand in the setting.
Kinda goes with what I asked in the revious page:
Can House Thrune exist/survive without Infernal Cheliax?and
Can Infernal Cheliax exist without House Thrune?
So there is a possibility Hell has less and less need for House Thrune.
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So there is a possibility Hell has less and less need for House Thrune.
Maybe. But Abrogail II has a contract.
Hell has to figure out a way to get her to break the contract because they sure as heck aren't going to.
And there isn't going to be any weaselly unknown loopholes in the contract that Hell is going to be able to exploit to get out of their bargain, either.
No, Abrogail will have to affirmatively and unquestionably BREAK it.
Good luck with that.
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Is there any chance of Hell sending infernal repo men to seize the whole country?
So there is a possibility Hell has less and less need for House Thrune.
Maybe. But Abrogail II has a contract.
Hell has to figure out a way to get her to break the contract because they sure as heck aren't going to.
And there isn't going to be any weaselly unknown loopholes in the contract that Hell is going to be able to exploit to get out of their bargain, either.
No, Abrogail will have to affirmatively and unquestionably BREAK it.
Good luck with that.
Both Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance gave at least one way to break/null the contract.
And my question is more about Hell needing the contract with House Thrune.
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An infernal contract that Asmodeus could not turn to his advantage ? That would be something new for sure.
Now, maybe Hell can arrange for things to go so badly for Cheliax in this war that Abby feels she has no choice but to ask for Hell to bring all its infernal might to bear on her side.
Consequences be damned.
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Hell is certainly capable of asserting legal rights that they do not have on the premise that "everybody might just let you get away with it." This is actually remarkably topical.
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Both Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance gave at least one way to break/null the contract.
And my question is more about Hell needing the contract with House Thrune.
It's clear that House Thrune won't break the Kintargo Contract. If they were going to, they would have done it long before now.
Regarding the Hell's Vengeance AP, I suppose an outsider could interfere with renewing the Thrune contract with Hell, but I doubt Paizo would try to go that route again. Re-using a plot like that just smacks of poor storytelling and/or laziness.
You do raise a decent point about Hell needing House Thrune but, again, Thrune has a contract. Unless Thrune explicitly breaks it, I guarantee you Hell will comply with it regardless.
Is it possible that some devil gets a third party to cause House Thrune to break their contract with Asmodeus? Sure. But, again, Paizo already tried that particular plot. I doubt they'd do it again.
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Is there any chance of Hell sending infernal repo men to seize the whole country?
That IS a possibility that was hinted at in War of Immortals:
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The book doesn't elaborate, but given the language used (namely, "default") it seems what this Rider (Owyn Darkoath by name, now that I can reference the book again) hopes that the war will force Abrogail II into a position where she can no longer hold up her end of the bargain, which I imagine would mean helping steer things so Cheliax loses BADLY. Given that at that stage, Cheliax would basically no longer be able to prosecute any war, the goal is for the victors of the conflict to be immediately forced into battle with basically a Hellish invasion of Golarion while they're battered and tired from fighting Cheliax. The whys of the war aren't important to Owyn. Just the eventual scale of it.
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The book doesn't elaborate, but given the language used (namely, "default") it seems what this Rider (Owyn Darkoath by name, now that I can reference the book again) hopes that the war will force Abrogail II into a position where she can no longer hold up her end of the bargain, which I imagine would mean helping steer things so Cheliax loses BADLY. Given that at that stage, Cheliax would basically no longer be able to prosecute any war, the goal is for the victors of the conflict to be immediately forced into battle with basically a Hellish invasion of Golarion while they're battered and tired from fighting Cheliax. The whys of the war aren't important to Owyn. Just the eventual scale of it.
This does hit A LOT of the proverbial nails on the head.
Both Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance gave at least one way to break/null the contract.
And my question is more about Hell needing the contract with House Thrune.
It's clear that House Thrune won't break the Kintargo Contract. If they were going to, they would have done it long before now.
Regarding the Hell's Vengeance AP, I suppose an outsider could interfere with renewing the Thrune contract with Hell, but I doubt Paizo would try to go that route again. Re-using a plot like that just smacks of poor storytelling and/or laziness.
You do raise a decent point about Hell needing House Thrune but, again, Thrune has a contract. Unless Thrune explicitly breaks it, I guarantee you Hell will comply with it regardless.
Is it possible that some devil gets a third party to cause House Thrune to break their contract with Asmodeus? Sure. But, again, Paizo already tried that particular plot. I doubt they'd do it again.
It's indirectly implied that Asmodeus can transfer the contract to someone else, and that there might be a bypass to needing Thrune's consent, but there might also be some extra clauses regarding the souls of House Thrune that make this a potential loss for Hell.
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The book doesn't elaborate, but given the language used (namely, "default") it seems what this Rider (Owyn Darkoath by name, now that I can reference the book again) hopes that the war will force Abrogail II into a position where she can no longer hold up her end of the bargain, which I imagine would mean helping steer things so Cheliax loses BADLY. Given that at that stage, Cheliax would basically no longer be able to prosecute any war, the goal is for the victors of the conflict to be immediately forced into battle with basically a Hellish invasion of Golarion while they're battered and tired from fighting Cheliax. The whys of the war aren't important to Owyn. Just the eventual scale of it.
Ok, sure Owyn Darkoath is riding around along the Cheliax/Andoran border hoping to stir up trouble. Fine.
That still doesn't explain HOW he's going to force Thrune to default on the contract.
AFAIK, only one condition of the contract has ever been disclosed by Paizo - that is it has to be renewed yearly in the Barrowood. (See Paizo #106 starting on page 41)
As I said earlier, unless there's some other undisclosed part of the contract that can also be disrupted, I just don't see Paizo getting Mr. Darkoath to disrupt the yearly ritual to renew the Thrunes' contract with Hell. BTW, the Barrowood isn't anywhere near Andoran, so that's even more reason the rider is going to try something else.
THAT's what I'm curious about. What other provision is there in the contract he thinks he can mess up on Thrune's part? Even more importantly, how did he find out about this provision? It isn't like he could just fill out a FOIA request and get a copy of the contract he could then peruse.
The book doesn't elaborate, but given the language used (namely, "default") it seems what this Rider (Owyn Darkoath by name, now that I can reference the book again) hopes that the war will force Abrogail II into a position where she can no longer hold up her end of the bargain, which I imagine would mean helping steer things so Cheliax loses BADLY. Given that at that stage, Cheliax would basically no longer be able to prosecute any war, the goal is for the victors of the conflict to be immediately forced into battle with basically a Hellish invasion of Golarion while they're battered and tired from fighting Cheliax. The whys of the war aren't important to Owyn. Just the eventual scale of it.Ok, sure Owyn Darkoath is riding around along the Cheliax/Andoran border hoping to stir up trouble. Fine.
That still doesn't explain HOW he's going to force Thrune to default on the contract.
AFAIK, only one condition of the contract has ever been disclosed by Paizo - that is it has to be renewed yearly in the Barrowood. (See Paizo #106 starting on page 41)
As I said earlier, unless there's some other undisclosed part of the contract that can also be disrupted, I just don't see Paizo getting Mr. Darkoath to disrupt the yearly ritual to renew the Thrunes' contract with Hell. BTW, the Barrowood isn't anywhere near Andoran, so that's even more reason the rider is going to try something else.
THAT's what I'm curious about. What other provision is there in the contract he thinks he can mess up on Thrune's part? Even more importantly, how did he find out about this provision? It isn't like he could just fill out a FOIA request and get a copy of the contract he could then peruse.
Guess we will have to wait and see what Paizo has planned then.
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To be honest, I wondered why Szuriel was on the cover of War of Immortals when it seemed like she wasn't doing anything really out of the ordinary in the text itself (almost all mentions of her are in regard to her cultists doing things in her name rather than her directly involving herself). Maybe it turns out she was playing the long game this whole time!
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Szuriel and Moloch have been penfriends for quite some time.
Seems like a good way to transfer info about infernal contracts.
So Moloch filled out the FOIA request?
Because if Asmodeus finds out Moloch or one of his minions stole it or otherwise gained access to it, Moloch’s ass is grass.
Remember, Asmodeus is a full-fledged deity. Moloch is not.
If you’re an Arch-Devil and want to screw with Asmodeus or his pets, you’d better be at least as smart as the ruler of Hell. Moloch is not that guy.
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Szuriel and Moloch have been penfriends for quite some time.
Seems like a good way to transfer info about infernal contracts.
So Moloch filled out the FOIA request?
Because if Asmodeus finds out Moloch or one of his minions stole it or otherwise gained access to it, Moloch’s ass is grass.
Remember, Asmodeus is a full-fledged deity. Moloch is not.
If you’re an Arch-Devil and want to screw with Asmodeus or his pets, you’d better be at least as smart as the ruler of Hell. Moloch is not that guy.
The terms of the Cheliax Covenant aren't secret in Hell. Some parts are more well-known to the general devil public than others, but certainly each part's drafters know their own work in detail.
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Szuriel and Moloch have been penfriends for quite some time.
Seems like a good way to transfer info about infernal contracts.
So Moloch filled out the FOIA request?
Because if Asmodeus finds out Moloch or one of his minions stole it or otherwise gained access to it, Moloch’s ass is grass.
Remember, Asmodeus is a full-fledged deity. Moloch is not.
If you’re an Arch-Devil and want to screw with Asmodeus or his pets, you’d better be at least as smart as the ruler of Hell. Moloch is not that guy.
I mean, that's assuming Asmodeus wasn't using Moloch as a backchannel to leak the information to Szuriel in the first place.
Whether Asmodeus actually wants House Thrune to default or simply wants to put some extra pressure on them, I think it's safe to assume the contract is set up in a way where Asmodeus benefits either way.
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I mean, that's assuming Asmodeus wasn't using Moloch as a backchannel to leak the information to Szuriel in the first place.
This is possible. I guess, if Abrogail the First was smart, she could have insisted on an NDA for the contract. Whether she did or not remains to be seen.
Whether Asmodeus actually wants House Thrune to default or simply wants to put some extra pressure on them, I think it's safe to assume the contract is set up in a way where Asmodeus benefits either way.
This is also a good point. But it sure seems like the Thrunes did such a masterful job with the contract that I don't expect there to be any "gotcha" clauses in it. The contract has been in effect for 85 years and neither side has complained about its terms for that period as far as I know. If something was a problem in it, I expect it would have surfaced before now.
Sure, Asmodeus makes out either way. He makes out if both parties keep their bargains and he makes out if the Thrunes default.
The only way Asmodeus doesn't make out if he doesn't keep HIS end of the bargain.
If I were Asmodeus, for sure I'd keep my promises. That way, I'd always win.
I mean, that's assuming Asmodeus wasn't using Moloch as a backchannel to leak the information to Szuriel in the first place.This is possible. I guess, if Abrogail the First was smart, she could have insisted on an NDA for the contract. Whether she did or not remains to be seen.
Whether Asmodeus actually wants House Thrune to default or simply wants to put some extra pressure on them, I think it's safe to assume the contract is set up in a way where Asmodeus benefits either way.This is also a good point. But it sure seems like the Thrunes did such a masterful job with the contract that I don't expect there to be any "gotcha" clauses in it. The contract has been in effect for 85 years and neither side has complained about its terms for that period as far as I know. If something was a problem in it, I expect it would have surfaced before now.
Sure, Asmodeus makes out either way. He makes out if both parties keep their bargains and he makes out if the Thrunes default.
The only way Asmodeus doesn't make out if he doesn't keep HIS end of the bargain.
If I were Asmodeus, for sure I'd keep my promises. That way, I'd always win.
The whole Kintargo thing was Abrogail the first doing, and barely anyone knew about it, so there could be other hidden (read, forgotten) gotcha like it.
And like I said earlier, that House Thrune goes out of its way to get rid of potential rivals suggest there are also some gotcha known only to them and Hell.|
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And now I wonder if Abby wants to use the warshards AGAINST Hell.
Or maybe to attempt a coup there.
You'd think her two minders would catch wind of that and steer her away from such plots.
Planning to overthrow and takeover Isger or Andoran is one thing, overthrowing Asmodeus is a whole different ballgame.
Abrogail II isn't even Mythic. How the heck is she going to takeover Hell?
Those Warshards had better be VERY powerful!
There are probably powers in Hell who wouldn't mind a change in leadership (like Erecura's whole deal is "she's up to something, but you won't find out until too late to do anything about it") but I would be surprised if any of them figure this is the right time to make their move.
There are probably powers in Hell who wouldn't mind a change in leadership (like Erecura's whole deal is "she's up to something, but you won't find out until too late to do anything about it") but I would be surprised if any of them figure this is the right time to make their move.
It's probably faster to list who is loyal to Asmodeus by this point, so that.
And now I wonder if Abby wants to use the warshards AGAINST Hell.
Or maybe to attempt a coup there.
You'd think her two minders would catch wind of that and steer her away from such plots.
Planning to overthrow and takeover Isger or Andoran is one thing, overthrowing Asmodeus is a whole different ballgame.
Abrogail II isn't even Mythic. How the heck is she going to takeover Hell?
Those Warshards had better be VERY powerful!
Could be less "overthrowing" and more about renegotiations.
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Could be less "overthrowing" and more about renegotiations.
So you think there's a possibility Asmodeus would settle for something LESS than the Thrunes' souls?
I'm assuming, of course, that those were the only things (besides the "Soul of Cheliax," whatever the heck that is :eyeroll: ) that were promised to Hell.
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Y'know, it only just now clicked for me: a lot of the Chelish army the good guys will be slaughtering en masse in this war... are going to be formerly-enslaved conscripts who got drawn into service via contracts they told would free them. Many of them were in chains less than 3 years ago.
That's pretty gnarly.
Could be less "overthrowing" and more about renegotiations.
So you think there's a possibility Asmodeus would settle for something LESS than the Thrunes' souls?
I'm assuming, of course, that those were the only things (besides the "Soul of Cheliax," whatever the heck that is :eyeroll: ) that were promised to Hell.
You are looking at this from Asmodeus' perspective, not House Thrune's...
Asmodeus is a god, so his perspective is the most important one.
You are looking at this from Asmodeus' perspective, not House Thrune's...
Remember that mortals tend to be full of themselves.
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Remember that mortals tend to be full of themselves.Asmodeus is a god, so his perspective is the most important one.
You are looking at this from Asmodeus' perspective, not House Thrune's...
*Channeling Red of Overly Sarcastic Productions*
"Hubris: It's okay when the gods do it."
More realistically, it depends on what House Thrune has to offer. Asmodeus certainly wouldn't be willing to renegotiate the terms of the contract with House Thrune for "less" than what he gets out of it currently, but that's only if House Thrune is offering "less".
If House Thrune can get their hands on something that Asmodeus values more than what he currently gets out of their contract, then they may have a viable bargaining position.
Remember that mortals tend to be full of themselves.Asmodeus is a god, so his perspective is the most important one.
You are looking at this from Asmodeus' perspective, not House Thrune's...
*Channeling Red of Overly Sarcastic Productions*
"Hubris: It's okay when the gods do it."
More realistically, it depends on what House Thrune has to offer. Asmodeus certainly wouldn't be willing to renegotiate the terms of the contract with House Thrune for "less" than what he gets out of it currently, but that's only if House Thrune is offering "less".
If House Thrune can get their hands on something that Asmodeus values more than what he currently gets out of their contract, then they may have a viable bargaining position.
Or House Thrune simply doesn't want to risk the contract going to someone else.
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As I understand, it's a little more complicated than that. Even if it's true, none of the Inner Sea's nations exactly map to the feudal model it was developed for. I recall that 3.5 had something like it for kingdom building, but there's no reason for Paizo to be bound to it if they don't want to be.SNIPI would say that in medieval society 90% of population was a peasants. Also, due to size of Cheliax and fact that Golarion comparable with Earth, Cheliax population would 20-40 millions.There isn't really a good way to estimate the population of any Golarion country other than city-states with no territory outside their walls other than maybe their immediate hinterlands (think, for instance, Kaer Maga). Estimates based upon population density are basically impossible, for two reasons. First, we don't actually know any country's land area. On small-scale maps the scale bar isn't helpful because the actual scale is meaningfully effected by distortion; on large-scale maps it still isn't helpful because Paizo's maps aren't consistent with one another. Even with the world map that now exists, nobody has actually attempted to figure out land areas. Second, what population density figure do you use? For Cheliax you might use Spain between about 1500 and about 1800, but Spain's population wasn't uniformly dense and Cheliax has a lot of waste land (uncultivated forests and mountains). And of course the population density changed over that quite large span of time as well as space.
In 1E Kingmaker, a state's population was supposed to equal hexes * 250 + settlements population, but this rule was dropped by 1E Ultimate Campaign, never mind any 2E book. One hex is approximately 95 square miles, meaning that if the superannuated and likely superseded 1E Kingmaker rule is used, any given country's population density would be about 3 (2.6 plus a bit for settlements) people per square mile. But again, this does us little good, since we don't know any country's area in square miles. It's also more than a little silly, since you'd expect uncultivated waste lands to have substantially less population than developed farmlands—but we don't know the areas of waste and arable lands either.
Estimates based on urbanization rate (percentage of people who live in cities, defined as settlements of 5,000 people or more) are a little better, since if a country has been detailed in a gazetteer we presumably know all such settlements. They still run into the problem of what urbanization rate to use, and historical urbanization rates are often not well-attested (nor is there any great reason to think they'll correspond to Golarion countries). But to pick an arbitrary example, Spain in 1500 had about a 6% urbanization rate. Cheliax has an urban population of 309,476,* and assuming a 6% urbanization rate implies a total population of 5.2 million people. This figure feels reasonable, but arriving at it relied on a lot of assumptions and I wouldn't trust it for anything.
Doing something similar with Qadira's urban population of 1,615,930** with any reasonable figure yields a substantially higher population. To take some arbitrary urbanization rates, the same 6% urbanization rate as Cheliax yields a population of about 26.9 million people; a 12% urbanization rate yields about 13.5 million people; and even a ludicrous 24% urbanization rate yields 6.7 million people. That population is about on par with Cheliax's, but to get a 24% urbanization rate you'll get such a vastly more productive use of human capital that the population comparison breaks down as a measure of power and the productivity comparison takes over.
But what do we need population figures for? I was using the accounted-for figures as a rough gauge of states' powers relative to one another (and from there to make the point that Qadira has nothing to fear from Taldor no matter how ascendent the latter is, and thus no reason to involve itself in the Inner Sea War even if Taldor gets involved), and for that purpose I don't think we need any figures other than the accounted-for ones.
After a lot of playing around with numbers, I've come up with the following method for estimating countries' populations:
1. For each country, take the greater of (a) the sum of the populations of all Large Cities (settlements with 10,000 or more people) and Metropolises (settlements with 25,000 thousand or more people) in the country, and (b) the population of the largest single settlement in the country.
2. Round the figure thus obtained to the nearest 100 to determine the so-called "Urban Population," ("U").
3. Let f(U) = 100U / ((3/100)U^(46/100)). The idea being that urbanization rate should be correlated, somewhere between linearly and logarithmically, with urban population.
4. Round f(U) to the nearest 100,000 to determine the so-called "Country Population."
This method produces the following estimated populations for countries and metaregions in, and of, Avistan, which seem reasonable to me:
Country / METAREGION / CONTINENT || Urban Population || Country Population || Urbanization Rate
Absalom || 318,600 || 3.1 million || 10.28%
ABSALOM || 318,600 || 3.1 million || 10.28%
Brevoy || 64,800 || 1.3 million || 4.98%
Mendev || 93,300 || 1.6 million || 5.83%
Numeria || 92,100 || 1.6 million || 5.76%
Razmiran || 17,300 || 0.6 million || 2.88%
River Kingdoms || 49,600 || 1.1 million || 4.51%
Sarkoris || 700 || 0.1 million || 0.70%
BROKEN LANDS || 317,800 || 6.3 million || 5.04%
Belkzen || 40,300 || 1.0 million || 4.03%
Gravelands || 10,400 || 0.5 million || 2.08%
Molthune || 39,400 || 1.0 million || 3.94%
Nirmathas || 9,700 || 0.5 million || 1.94%
Oprak || 25,600 || 0.8 million || 3.20%
EYE OF DREAD || 163,100 || 4.8 million || 3.40%
Qadira || 1,591,900 || 7.4 million || 21.51%
GOLDEN ROAD || 1,591,900 || 7.4 million || 21.51%
Hermea || 6,300 || 0.4 million || 1.58%
Mordant Spire || 2,100 || 0.2 million || 1.05%
HIGH SEAS || 8,400 || 0.6 million || 1.40%
Cheliax || 297,500 || 3.0 million || 9.92%
Isger || 11,900 || 0.5 million || 2.38%
Nidal || 54,600 || 1.2 million || 4.55%
Ravounel || 33,300 || 0.9 million || 3.70%
OLD CHELIAX || 397,300 || 5.6 million || 7.09%
Irrisen || 37,300 || 1.0 million || 3.73%
Lands of the Linnorm Kings || 110,500 || 1.8 million || 6.14%
New Thassilon || 23,700 || 0.8 million || 2.96%
Realm of the Mammoth Lords || 11,300 || 0.5 million || 2.26%
Varisia || 55,200 || 1.2 million || 4.60%
SAGA LANDS || 238,000 || 5.3 million || 4.49%
Andoran || 185,000 || 2.3 million || 8.04%
Druma || 20,100 || 0.7 million || 2.87%
Five Kings Mountains || 75,300 || 1.4 million || 5.38%
Galt || 74,100 || 1.4 million || 5.29%
Kyonin || 73,400 || 1.4 million || 5.24%
Taldor || 181,000 || 2.3 million || 7.87%
SHINING KINGDOMS || 608,900 || 9.5 million || 6.41%
AVISTAN || 3,644,000 || 42.6 million || 8.55%
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Doing the same for northern Garund yields:
Country / METAREGION / CONTINENT || Urban Population || Country Population || Urbanization Rate
Katapesh || 226,000 || 2.6 million || 8.69%
Osirion || 234,800 || 2.6 million || 9.03%
Rahadoum || 122,700 || 1.9 million || 6.46%
Thuvia || 94,000 || 1.6 million || 5.88%
GOLDEN ROAD || 677,500 || 8.7 million || 7.79%
Mediogalti Island || 10,500 || 0.5 million || 2.10%
The Shackles || 55,800 || 1.2 million || 4.65%
HIGH SEAS || 66,300 || 1.7 million || 3.90%
Geb || 161,200 || 2.2 million || 7.33%
Jalmeray || 10,300 || 0.5 million || 2.06%
Mana Wastes || 63,900 || 1.3 million || 4.92%
Nex || 83,400 || 1.5 million || 5.56%
IMPOSSIBLE LANDS || 318,800 || 5.5 million || 5.80%
Mwangi Expanse || 91,900 || 1.6 million || 5.74%
Sodden Lands || 2,100 || 0.2 million || 1.05%
Vidrian || 21,900 || 0.7 million || 3.13%
MWANGI EXPANSE || 115,900 || 2.5 million || 4.64%
NORTHERN GARUND || 1,178,500 || 18.4 million || 6.40%
In both instances it is incredibly clear what an outlier the Golden Road is in terms of population and development.
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Hermea || 6,300 || 0.4 million || 1.58%
If we're getting Hermea having a 1.58% urbanization rate, I think there's something fundamentally wrong with the methodology - it is an island that was only recently inhabited, whose economy revolves very heavily around exporting knowledge while being fed by a noticeably efficient agricultural scheme. The only city on the island has 6,300 residents, the people coming onto the island are heavily restricted to a very small number, and the state has been focused on maintaining as much control over individual's lives as possible. In the most recent overview of the island, there is only a single set of residents outside of Promise itself that is mentioned, and they are explicitly described a small group that might 'progress towards an independent settlement'. I'm sure the agriculture has some residents outside of the city - but the neighbourhood of Farmer houses many of the people who work on the island's agricultural work, even that outside the city. I do not think that 98.42% of the population lives outside of Promise.
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There are probably powers in Hell who wouldn't mind a change in leadership (like Erecura's whole deal is "she's up to something, but you won't find out until too late to do anything about it") but I would be surprised if any of them figure this is the right time to make their move.
Stepping into the Doylist perspective for a moment, it WOULD be kind of cool if Paizo decided to shake up not just their status quo, but the fantasy RPG status quo in general by having Asmodeus dethroned in their version of Hell as a way of making it more distinct from its predecessor (which is so entrenched in the RPG-playing public's consciousness that people STILL call it "the Nine Hells" when playing Pathfinder even though that hasn't been the case in the actual text for YEARS)!
I doubt they'd actually DO it so soon after Gorum's death (though technically you COULD have Asmodeus kicked off Hell's throne WITHOUT killing him) because it'd invalidate a lot of the canon they just established in Divine Mysteries and would cause Pathfinder and Starfinder to further diverge into separate canons, but it'd be gutsy.
I agree dethroning him would be interesting, but isn't Asmodeus kind of a linchpin being in Golarion metaphysics? I might be confusing my Planescape lore because you're right, he's (perhaps too much of) a fantasy RPG staple. Hmm. Also it'd be hard to make a worthwhile replacement. Maybe if Paizo develops someone rising through the ranks. OMG, maybe Achaekek!
Also there's the problem of chaos being so antithetical to Hell that I'm not sure how much would change (or if any of that would trickle down to Golarion except as a random factor in Cheliax). And now I'm recalling that Asmodeus did get dethroned in DnD 2.0, didn't he? By himself as a ploy to draw out the disloyal, but the shakeup played out the same at first. Hmm.
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I think the potential Asmodeus shakeup in the future is foreshadowed by his "Death" in that series of short fiction leading up to the reveal of who was going to kick the bucket. Specifically the fact that his brother might not be as dead as Asmodeus has let on, as Ihys persists as sort of an anti-corrupting influence within Asmodeus, and might be gaining in strength over the eons.
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I think the potential Asmodeus shakeup in the future is foreshadowed by his "Death" in that series of short fiction leading up to the reveal of who was going to kick the bucket. Specifically the fact that his brother might not be as dead as Asmodeus has let on, as Ihys persists as sort of an anti-corrupting influence within Asmodeus, and might be gaining in strength over the eons.
THIS is the only way I can see Asmodeus being defeated.
None of the other gods would be able to do it (except if Rovagug escaped, and if he did, all the other gods would be in serious jeopardy too) and certainly no other arch-devil, demon lord, etc. would be able to defeat him.
No, his defeat would have to come completely out of left field and you can’t really get more left field than Ihys.
I think "Ihys, having been absorbed by Asmodeus eons ago, finally gains control and insists on running Hell differently than his brother would" is a great seed for a really big story if anybody (including Paizo) wants to do it. I just think that this isn't that story.
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There are probably powers in Hell who wouldn't mind a change in leadership (like Erecura's whole deal is "she's up to something, but you won't find out until too late to do anything about it") but I would be surprised if any of them figure this is the right time to make their move.Stepping into the Doylist perspective for a moment, it WOULD be kind of cool if Paizo decided to shake up not just their status quo, but the fantasy RPG status quo in general by having Asmodeus dethroned in their version of Hell as a way of making it more distinct from its predecessor (which is so entrenched in the RPG-playing public's consciousness that people STILL call it "the Nine Hells" when playing Pathfinder even though that hasn't been the case in the actual text for YEARS)!
I doubt they'd actually DO it so soon after Gorum's death (though technically you COULD have Asmodeus kicked off Hell's throne WITHOUT killing him) because it'd invalidate a lot of the canon they just established in Divine Mysteries and would cause Pathfinder and Starfinder to further diverge into separate canons, but it'd be gutsy.
I've always been of two minds when it comes to the "why don't they just kill off/dethrone Asmodeus" argument.
On the one hand, I've been brainstorming a massive "The Reckoning Part Deux: Game of Thrones IN HELL!" campaign/storyline for years over on the D&D side of things (I'm a long-time Planescape fan), so I can't simply reject the idea on principle. An infernal civil war, succession crisis, or even just a mere shakeup in the proverbial C-suite has the potential to create plenty of interesting stories that both shake up the status quo and have ramifications that reach far beyond the borders of Hell itself.
On the other hand, as a massive Cheliax fan, taking Asmodeus out of the picture would kneecap House Thrune and push the Chelaxian regime to the brink of collapse, at a bare minimum. The last time Cheliax lost its patron god, they spent decades in civil war. The ascension of House Thrune gave them a new one and brought back some measure of stability. I don't see any realistic scenario where Cheliax can lose Asmodeus and not get immediately dogpiled by every faction, both internal and external, that desires the immediate downfall of House Thrune.
The only outcomes that I see for a post-Thrune Cheliax are an attempted restoration of its pre-Thrune Chelaxian identity (Ravounel 2.0), becoming an Iomedae-worshiping crusader state (Mendev 2.0), throwing off monarchy and trying their hands at a republic (Andoran 2.0), becoming the beachhead for an infernal invasion of Golarion (Worldwound 2.0), or breaking up into multiple smaller states that are locked in constant conflict with each other and/or are absorbed into their neighboring nations.
It would definitely break the status quo, but would inevitably, and perhaps irreversibly break my favorite part of the setting in the process.
And now I'm recalling that Asmodeus did get dethroned in DnD 2.0, didn't he? By himself as a ploy to draw out the disloyal, but the shakeup played out the same at first. Hmm.
There was a civil war in the Nine Hells known as the Reckoning of Hell, initially between the "fallen celestial" archdevils (Baalzebul, Moloch, Belial, and Zariel) and the "native devil" archdevils (Mephistopheles, Geryon, Mammon, and Dispater) that ultimately ended with everyone trying to gang up and overthrow Asmodeus, but Asmodeus won that handily, since he had both Geryon and the major pit fiend commanders of every archdevil's army in his back pocket.
You're probably thinking of Mephistopheles, who was overthrown by a "Baron Molikroth" after the Reckoning (part of TSR's efforts to scrub any real world demon/devil references from the game over the whole Satanic Panic thing) but was later revealed to have actually been "Baron Molikroth" the entire time, having engineered a coup against himself to round up and purge his court of disloyal elements.
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I think the potential Asmodeus shakeup in the future is foreshadowed by his "Death" in that series of short fiction leading up to the reveal of who was going to kick the bucket. Specifically the fact that his brother might not be as dead as Asmodeus has let on, as Ihys persists as sort of an anti-corrupting influence within Asmodeus, and might be gaining in strength over the eons.
For those who haven't read it: The Godsrain Prophecies Part Two.
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Stepping into the Doylist perspective for a moment, it WOULD be kind of cool if Paizo decided to shake up not just their status quo, but the fantasy RPG status quo in general by having Asmodeus dethroned in their version of Hell as a way of making it more distinct from its predecessor (which is so entrenched in the RPG-playing public's consciousness that people STILL call it "the Nine Hells" when playing Pathfinder even though that hasn't been the case in the actual text for YEARS)!You're referring specifically to the name "The Nine Hells," right? Not the actual number of distinct zones? Just double checking that I didn't miss some shakeup to the layout of Hell in PF's cosmology, somehow.
Yeah, just the name. It just bugs me when I'm playing Pathfinder and a player character says "Hells!" or "What in the Hells?" due to this cultural inertia. This isn't Forgotten Realms! Similar to how it annoys me when someone says they'll stay behind to "hold down the fort." The fort is not a bouncy castle filled with helium! It's just "hold the fort!" It's a military metaphor!
Yeah, just the name. It just bugs me when I'm playing Pathfinder and a player character says "Hells!" or "What in the Hells?" due to this cultural inertia. This isn't Forgotten Realms! Similar to how it annoys me when someone says they'll stay behind to "hold down the fort." The fort is not a bouncy castle filled with helium! It's just "hold the fort!" It's a military metaphor!Stepping into the Doylist perspective for a moment, it WOULD be kind of cool if Paizo decided to shake up not just their status quo, but the fantasy RPG status quo in general by having Asmodeus dethroned in their version of Hell as a way of making it more distinct from its predecessor (which is so entrenched in the RPG-playing public's consciousness that people STILL call it "the Nine Hells" when playing Pathfinder even though that hasn't been the case in the actual text for YEARS)!You're referring specifically to the name "The Nine Hells," right? Not the actual number of distinct zones? Just double checking that I didn't miss some shakeup to the layout of Hell in PF's cosmology, somehow.
"Holding down the fort" sounds like a mix of "hold the fort" and "holding the enemies down" which tend to be used instead of "holding off".