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I just did a few games and a few fights with a level 8 necromancer, and it's one the best class I've ever played.
So let's see how it worked for me.
When I wasn't moving, most of my turns were:
- 1 action create two thralls
- 2-action spell or focus point.
So there was no shortage of thralls whatsoever.
1 - Flanking
For the low price of 1 action, I could give flanking to two of my buddies as long as the monsters were within 30 feet. That actually mattered A LOT MORE than I thought. With judicious use of delaying an action, every melee had flanking every single time.
2 - Blocking
We're still unclear on whether there is a specific DC to tumble through a thrall, so we went with the least favorable option for the necromancer (autosuccess). Even so, Tumble through allows you to get through ONE creature and only ONE. So in cramped dungeons, you can create a roadblock that takes some time to get through and eats away enemy actions and MAP.
3 - Cover
For one action, I could get two thralls in front of me. That can be useful for later uses, but it also gave me a permanent lesser cover, so +1 against all ranged attacks, which was useful since I played my necromancer from afar.
4 - Exploration
People complain about not being able to move their thralls, and some say it's to prevent the necromancer to use them as bait for traps or monsters. But who cares if they cannot move since they're free to cast ? Just summon some over and over (if it gets too cluttered, your friends can clear them up easily) and you'll eventually summon one into a trap or into an ambush.
5 - Flying
RAW (and possibly RAI), there's NOTHING preventing you from creating a flying thrall, especially since it can look like a ghost or specter. "You conjure forth an expendable undead thrall in range" means you can conjure it in the air if needed, as long as it's 30 feet. Sure, if you rule that it needs an action to stay afloat, it'll fall soon, but you can still use it to throw a bone spear at some annoying harpies.
Here were my necromancer's feats:
1 - Bone Spear (from being a bonemancer)
2 - Muscle Barrier
4 - Body Shield
6 - Bone Burst
8 - Bony Barrage
They're by no means the best feats, just those I wanted to take for the playtest.
So, let me say that Bone Burst is MANDATORY, and it's the single most useful feat in the necromancer list. Since you can create a thrall anywhere and the opportunity attack comes from him - you can basically get any enemy not already engaged in melee in a catch 22 - either sacrifice your highest attack to get rid of the annoyance, or eat a 2d10 piercing attack of opportunity. The fun thing is, you can do it EVERY SINGLE TURN with basically no cost (half an action to raise the thrall, and your reaction). It helped me pile up so much damage it's not even funny.
I only used Body Shield twice (with those thralls I created first round as cover) but it really saved my life. The emergency +2 AC is good, and reducing damage by my level was just gravy.
So far, we've spoken about at-will actions. But my necromancer had 3 focus points + 1 free per fight (which is a gamechanger from ANY OTHER CLASS). Some classes have to spend a feat to get 1 free focus point PER DAY. The necromancer gets 1 free focus point PER FIGHT, baked right into the class.
What could I do with those focus points ?
In most fights, I would use them offensively. Bone Spear is insanely powerful since you can cast it from basically anywhere you have a thrall - and if you don't have one, you can summon one THEN cast it in the same round.
At my level, that's 7d8 damage in an ideally-placed 15-foot line, which usually meant at least 2 targets. Those who read my guide about spellblending know how much I hate attack rolls as a caster, but here the damage and the AOE is worth the cost - and it also helps put those hero points to use.
7d8 to multiple opponents as a focus spell is kind of big. Sure, Imaginary Weapon deals 1d8 more when amped, but you have to be in melee, and it's a maximum of two targets.
When there were a lot of targets, I used Bony barrage for 4d10 friendly-fire damage in an area. That's the same damage as Divine Wrath - without the sickened, sadly, but you cannot have it all.
When we went against a single opponent, I played more support, with Muscle Barrier giving heaps of HP to my friends. It's like a Protector Tree that can move AND that the opponent cannot crit.
I've written all this, and we didn't even talk about spells. Aside from all these goodies, the necromancer is also a semi-full caster. Two slots per level isn't that much but I didn't really feel the lack of spells. When I needed them, they were there, but the ability to use your focus points more liberally than any other class makes it very fun to play.
And that's in a class with a strong chassis (d8 hp, light armor, legendary fortitude, only perception expertise though)
TLDR:
The Necromancer is awesome and I had a lot of fun because:
1) Lots of creative uses of thralls
2) Unparalleled mastery of bursts and cones (and basically targetting).
3) Unparalleled mastery of focus points
4) Good AOE damage and good damage mitigation
5) Very hard to kill between cover, Muscle Barrier and Body Shield
Some weaker points:
1) I suffered a bit against single targets, although I could maybe have chosen other feats for that
2) You have to think fast and play fast if you don't want your turn to be annoyingly long while you try to place your thrall at the exact best location for your next AOE
3) Thralls are weaks against AOE (but since we can put them anywhere we like, they're rarely all lined up to suffer a fireball)
4) No clear rules for tumble through.
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Nice read, thanks for the writeup!
I just did a few games and a few fights with a level 8 necromancer [...] So there was no shortage of thralls whatsoever.
Could you run a few encounter at level 6 and see how that feels in comparison? I still think the class suffers a lot in playability and feel if you only have one thrall per action at your disposal. Like if you need your only thrall per turn to use your focus spells, Bone Burst suddenly becomes much less usable and it can be awkward to even use Consume Thrall.
Bone Spear is insanely powerful since you can cast it from basically anywhere you have a thrall - and if you don't have one, you can summon one THEN cast it in the same round.
At my level, that's 7d8 damage in an ideally-placed 15-foot cone, which usually meant at least 3 targets.
Bone Spear only has a 10 ft range. That didn't hinder its performance? It's also not a 15ft cone, but a 15 ft line, so it covers only 3 squares, not 6 or 7 like a 15 cone would.
Could you run a few encounter at level 6 and see how that feels in comparison? I still think the class suffers a lot in playability and feel if you only have one thrall per action at your disposal. Like if you need your only thrall per turn to use your focus spells, Bone Burst suddenly becomes much less usable and it can be awkward to even use Consume Thrall.
You're right, I think necromancer is way weaker before level 7 - but then, I guess that's the case of most casters, since it's at level 7 that you get expert and your DC stops sucking so much ;)
The free flanking part would still be interesting, but there would certainly be much less shenanigans. But at these levels, there probably are less AOE as well, so less chance of thralls being all killed at once.
Anyway, I'm one of those old-timers who waited ages in ADD2 with a useless low-level wizard in order to become insanely powerful later - so I'm ok with 6 levels being a bit rough if it gets much better later ^^
Bone Spear only has a 10 ft range. That didn't hinder its performance? It's also not a 15ft cone, but a 15 ft line, so it covers only 3 squares, not 6 or 7 like a 15 cone would.
Yeah, I already edited it, i meant line of course ^^
About the 10 feet range, we had a discussion about it because it could be understood both ways, but for us you need to be 10 feet away from the thrall, NOT the opponents. Am I wrong ?| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you create a thrall in midair it will immediately fall and be destroyed by fall damage. You won't have time to use it as a source for a spell. Things don't Wile E. Coyote in the air until the turn ends, and thralls can't move, let alone have a fly speed they can use.
You're right, I think necromancer is way weaker before level 7 - but then, I guess that's the case of most casters, since it's at level 7 that you get expert and your DC stops sucking so much ;)
Sure, but that's a pure number advantage all casters get. For me, the second thrall seems like it basically "unlocks" the class, if that makes any sense. Your action economy and impact just feels extremely limited at the lowest levels when you might have only one focus point, very few spell slots and are also starved for thralls.
The free flanking part would still be interesting, but there would certainly be much less shenanigans. But at these levels, there probably are less AOE as well, so less chance of thralls being all killed at once.
The thing is, you don't get free flanking if you use your only thrall for a focus spell immediately. Ok, the thrall would get flanking for its own attack but it wouldn't help your allies at all. Unless they are a rogue with Opportune Backstab, I guess.
Anyway, I'm one of those old-timers who waited ages in ADD2 with a useless low-level wizard in order to become insanely powerful later - so I'm ok with 6 levels being a bit rough if it gets much better later ^^
I'm less concerned about power and more about smoothness of play, which seems severely lacking before level 7. I have far less negative thoughts about the class at level 7+.
Yeah, I already edited it, i meant line of course ^^
Fair enough. :)
About the 10 feet range, we had a discussion about it because it could be understood both ways, but for us you need to be 10 feet away from the thrall, NOT the opponents. Am I wrong ?
As for the range, it weirdly doesn't say "one of your thralls" unlike similar spells. I do believe it's supposed to require the thrall to be within 10 ft of you, though.
It's good to know you ran it that way. I was just confused because you initially said it could be cast from "basically anywhere you have a thrall". There's a pretty big difference between "anywhere" and "up to 10 ft away". The range does seems rather short. You can't even attack someone at 30ft with it, despite that being the base range of most short range spells. And it being a line means you have to be careful to not hit your allies with it.
Sure, but that's a pure number advantage all casters get. For me, the second thrall seems like it basically "unlocks" the class, if that makes any sense. Your action economy and impact just feels extremely limited at the lowest levels when you might have only one focus point, very few spell slots and are also starved for thralls.
What I meant is that for most casters, spells are their whole shtick, so having a low DC is huge. Trying to make a slow spell stick as a lvl 5 sorcerer on a lvl 7 boss really is an uphill battle, even if fort is his low save.
So it stands to reason that the necromancer would be restricted a bit as well. Being able to create a lot of thralls right out of the box would look a bit OP to me.
The thing is, you don't get free flanking if you use your only thrall for a focus spell immediately. Ok, the thrall would get flanking for its own attack but it wouldn't help your allies at all. Unless they are a rogue with Opportune Backstab, I guess.
I'm just theorycrafting here since I played at a higher level but if I were a low-level necromancer, I would spend my first turn setting up the next ones, not casting spells.
As a lvl 4 necro, you already have attack of opportunity, so:
- I move in position
- I cast Create Thrall to give flanking to Bob
- I cast Create Thrall next to that troll coming for us
...is actually a great first turn. Bob has +2 to all his attacks, the troll will either sacrifice his highest attack or get hit for 2d10 damage.
And next turn, unless the troll AND the mob Bob was attacking actually spent an action to destroy the thralls, you already have some thralls out and ready to rumble.
And if they DID kill your thralls, you gave your team an incredible edge.
If you create a thrall in midair it will immediately fall and be destroyed by fall damage. You won't have time to use it as a source for a spell. Things don't Wile E. Coyote in the air until the turn ends, and thralls can't move, let alone have a fly speed they can use.
Well, that's how we played it (unmoving creature) but it's actually better your way.
What you're saying is I can create a thrall 30 feet up and he instantly falls on the creature behind ?
If you land on a creature, that creature must attempt a DC 15 Reflex save.
Critical Success The creature takes no damage.
Success The creature takes bludgeoning damage equal to one-quarter the falling damage you took.
Failure The creature takes bludgeoning damage equal to half the falling damage you took.
Critical Failure The creature takes the same amount of bludgeoning damage you took from the fall.
I'm all for it, might be fun but kind of OP, especially at low levels.
It's raining thralls, hallelujaaaaaaah
Isn't the Reactive Strike like ability a level 6 feat?
I'm not saying the pre-7 necro is bad. It just feels ... I don't know. Disconnected, I guess? You suddenly "unlock" so many more possibities for your class at level 7 it's almost ridiculous. You can immediately change most of your game plan. I can't think of any other classes that has anything like that, especially not at such low levels.
Isn't the Reactive Strike like ability a level 6 feat?
I'm not saying the pre-7 necro is bad. It just feels ... I don't know. Disconnected, I guess? You suddenly "unlock" so many more possibities for your class at level 7 it's almost ridiculous. You can immediately change most of your game plan. I can't think of any other classes that has anything like that, especially not at such low levels.
Well, I felt this problem more keenly with the animalist. It's a 3-slot caster up till level 10 and then suddenly, bam, advanced interlocution and you start getting a lot more slots.
As for the necro, I see what you mean but I really think getting two thralls per cast at level 1 would be overpowered. Or they could maybe put some kind of limitation in the total number of thralls instead of the number cast ? Like "you cannot have more thralls than half your level" or something like this ?
But for me, it wasn't the number of thralls but the reactive strike that was a game-changer.
I'm not sure my animist knowledge is enough to compare the two classes. It's not an interesting class to me personally, so I'm pretty sure I know much more about the Necromancer at this point. xD
Still, the animist suddenly having more spells is a power leap, but it doesn't suddenly completely change how you approach your turns.
And I agree that Bone Burst looks like it's very good in practice. But that still leaves the Necromancer with 5 whole levels without it, with few spell slots, and seemingly awkward action economy if you want to use your focus spells.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion. I really appreciate your insight. :)
Hmm. I thought PF2 had locked down the midair summons, but it looks like that was 1e. It's a DC 15 save vs. 5-7 damage, so it's not really a problem by fifth level, but it's better than attacks at low levels. Might be worth getting looked at, alongside the limited options vs flying enemies.
Well, I felt this problem more keenly with the animalist. It's a 3-slot caster up till level 10 and then suddenly, bam, advanced interlocution and you start getting a lot more slots.
As for the necro, I see what you mean but I really think getting two thralls per cast at level 1 would be overpowered. Or they could maybe put some kind of limitation in the total number of thralls instead of the number cast ? Like "you cannot have more thralls than half your level" or something like this ?
But for me, it wasn't the number of thralls but the reactive strike that was a game-changer.
I share Blave's worry about 1 thrall per 1A cantrip at low levels.
What do you think about the ability for Create Thrall to create 2 thralls at base, but if you command 1 thrall to attack, it is destroyed after making the attack?
(Either that, or just word the spell so that you summon +1 thralls if you don't attack).
Hmm. I thought PF2 had locked down the midair summons, but it looks like that was 1e. It's a DC 15 save vs. 5-7 damage, so it's not really a problem by fifth level, but it's better than attacks at low levels. Might be worth getting looked at, alongside the limited options vs flying enemies.
While a super rare appeal, Flesh Magicians may want to rain thralls down due to their passive of destroyed thralls creating difficult terrain, lol.
What's even more hilarious is that the terrain explicitly lasts 10 min, so a FM-Necro with setup time may genuinely want to rain down a serious quantity of corpses before the party lures the foes into a fight.
Hmm. I thought PF2 had locked down the midair summons, but it looks like that was 1e. It's a DC 15 save vs. 5-7 damage, so it's not really a problem by fifth level, but it's better than attacks at low levels. Might be worth getting looked at, alongside the limited options vs flying enemies.While a super rare appeal, Flesh Magicians may want to rain thralls down due to their passive of destroyed thralls creating difficult terrain, lol.
What's even more hilarious is that the terrain explicitly lasts 10 min, so a FM-Necro with setup time may genuinely want to rain down a serious quantity of corpses before the party lures the foes into a fight.
Yeah- it's enough that I would be tempted to make a copy of the cantrip and rename it to "Rain of Flesh" just so it feels a little less goofy than air-dropping zombies.