Should Magic Fall Out of Favor in Starfinder 2E?

[moosher12]

In Starfinder 1E, magic has fallen out of favor. Magic items are dispersed among technological replacements. Scrolls are gone, in favor of spell gems, potions for spell amps, Magic casters did not breach the 6th level. The archaic is inferior, objectively. But that is Starfinder 1E.

Here, in Starfinder 2E, casters can go up to the 10th rank. A cleric can preach alongside a mystic, and a wizard can work at a corporation, crafting magitech.

But the itemization still acts like magic has gone out of favor. A modern derringer is somehow too complex to accept a rune, where a similar weapon, the barricade buster, somehow accepts one readily. A knife made from factory stamped steel slab would not accept a rune, where a masterwork dagger made from an adamantine alloy will. An archaic firearm can be kitted with up to 2 fundamental runes, and up to 3 property runes, and be equipped with a scope, a silencer, a bayonet, a reinforced stock, and a tripod, while this mystical art is somehow lost to the modern day. Yet it’s supposedly superior analog variant can accept at best, 4 upgrades, where some rune equivalent technological analog is competing with something as simple as a scope, a muzzle attachment, a bayonet, a reinforced stock, a tripod, a flashlight, and you have it.

The spellcasters got their part. They are stronger, more potent. An archaic weapon by default will now be allowed to stand side by side with an analog or tech weapon, no longer having greatly reduced damage. This was a retcon from Starfinder 1E, where magic is not as lost as we thought, and the old ways are not as obsolete. But the rest of the world has not been adjusted for this change. Should it be adjusted? Should runes and magic items be made more prominent to represent the restoration of potent magic in the average caster? Should magitech companies be competing with magic companies be competing with tech companies for the customer’s credits? Should modern equipment accept magic more readily? Where the tech, the magitech, and the magic, can truly dance among one another?

[WWHsmackdown]

Nah Id just treat the slight dissonance as what it is: a means for compatibility. Efforts to contextualize "real, actual" mechanics within the context of "fictional, make-believe" worlds is always going to be fraught and lead to arguments and disgruntlement. The comparability of runes let's the PF2e characters play in the scifi game; it doesn't require much more mental/narrative bandwidth than that

[PossibleCabbage]

I dunno. Like a major problem in practical space travel is "how are we going to get food and water in space where nothing grows and resources are scarce" and being able to do so easily through magic would remain a fairly attractive solution to that problem.

[Master Han Del of the Web]

Sigh
taps the 'Starfinder/Pathfinder were never meant to be simulationist games and the rules are abstract representations of events in the game meant to interact in a balanced and engaging way' sign

Snark aside, yeah, go for it in your home games but I don't think that's a primary consideration for the writers. They might introduce a similar element later but this is based on a somewhat arcane interaction of Pathfinder 2e and Starfinder 2e rules. It would go right over the head of a new player.

[moosher12]

From a gamist side, it does matter when one player is allowed to walk in with a +3 Greater Striking Barricade Buster with 3 property runes, a tripod, a scope, a bayonet, and a reinforced stock, and their teammate's firearm cannot have as many bonuses. Because that's how archaic weapons work, and it's a home rule to make them work any other way than that.

[Master Han Del of the Web]

That barricade buster will not have the ammo capacity or support the Starfinder weapons will in the long run. Yeah it can have all those goodies outside of Starfinder's weapon upgrade system but how long before we start seeing item level 10+ uprgrades?

[moosher12]

Most projectile weapons have a maximum of 10 rounds, the one exception being the Machine gun at 20. Some only have 5. There is not currently an option to increase the magazine sizes of projectile weapons.

A barricade buster holds 8 rounds, it is not at all far behind.

[Finoan]

moosher12 wrote:

From a gamist side, it does matter when one player is allowed to walk in with a +3 Greater Striking Barricade Buster with 3 property runes, a tripod, a scope, a bayonet, and a reinforced stock, and their teammate's firearm cannot have as many bonuses. Because that's how archaic weapons work, and it's a home rule to make them work any other way than that.

Wait, what? I'm a bit lost on the logic here.

It is a houserule to allow PF2 runes on archaic weapons in Starfinder2e.
During the playtest there may not be the full suite of upgrades available for SF2 weapons that PF2 has after 4-5 years of updates.

So why is it an expectation that one player is going to be walking around with a +3 Greater Striking Barricade Buster with 3 property runes, a tripod, a scope, a bayonet, and a reinforced stock, while another character in the same game doesn't have potential access to all of those same items for their weapons - that they are relegated to only the items in the SF2 playtest instead of being able to grab these same upgrades from Pathfinder2e?

Or to say it another way - if you are already houseruling in that Striking runes and reinforced stocks are available in the game, why can't we have a +3 Greater Striking Rotolaser with a reinforced stock, a bayonet, and a scope?

[Dragonchess Player]

Huh.

I must have been imagining the Weapon Improvements table on page 182 of the Playtest Rulebook with the Tracking bonuses, damage dice increases, and upgrades (pages 190-194)...

The Tracking trait bonuses and damage dice increases are essentially the same as weapon potency and striking runes for analog and tech (non-archaic) weapons. The upgrades combine property runes (in fact, many have the same mechanical effect as property runes) and modifications in a single (standardized) category.

About the only thing missing from the improvements/upgrades in the playtest is the bayonet or reinforced stock to use a ranged weapon as a (non-improvised) melee weapon. That seems to be a design consideration for SF2, considering the soldier gets Quick Swap and Stock Striker as class feats.

It's not that magic is "out of favor" so much as with tech being so prevalent, individually crafted magic items are less common than tech items having improved versions and installing mix and match upgrades (including hybrid upgrades). There are some instances where "old school" magic items are used (plated vesk inscribing armor runes on their scales), but most of the time having mass produced items makes more sense in a setting where tech is omnipresent and even hybrid items can be printed in one hour using a creator capsule with the Fabricator and Machine Magic feats.

[Dragonchess Player]

Regarding the ammo capacity of projectile weapons, I wouldn't be surprised if the SF2 core rules have an upgrade that takes the place of the energetic fusion from the SF1 Armory...

In fact, there is nothing preventing a house rule including a level 5 Energetic upgrade to allow projectile weapons to make "ammunition" using battery charges.

[moosher12]

Finoan wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

From a gamist side, it does matter when one player is allowed to walk in with a +3 Greater Striking Barricade Buster with 3 property runes, a tripod, a scope, a bayonet, and a reinforced stock, and their teammate's firearm cannot have as many bonuses. Because that's how archaic weapons work, and it's a home rule to make them work any other way than that.

Wait, what? I'm a bit lost on the logic here.

It is a houserule to allow PF2 runes on archaic weapons in Starfinder2e.
During the playtest there may not be the full suite of upgrades available for SF2 weapons that PF2 has after 4-5 years of updates.

So why is it an expectation that one player is going to be walking around with a +3 Greater Striking Barricade Buster with 3 property runes, a tripod, a scope, a bayonet, and a reinforced stock, while another character in the same game doesn't have potential access to all of those same items for their weapons - that they are relegated to only the items in the SF2 playtest instead of being able to grab these same upgrades from Pathfinder2e?

Or to say it another way - if you are already houseruling in that Striking runes and reinforced stocks are available in the game, why can't we have a +3 Greater Striking Rotolaser with a reinforced stock, a bayonet, and a scope?

Runes are allowed vanilla, just not in Analog and Tech weapons. Look at the Vesk's Plated Vesk heritage, which lets it accept runes.

Archaic Weapons are also available (And have been available since 1E, even showing up in the 1E Core Rulebook, but don't have their penalty anymore.)

[moosher12]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Huh.

I must have been imagining the Weapon Improvements table on page 182 of the Playtest Rulebook with the Tracking bonuses, damage dice increases, and upgrades (pages 190-194)...

The Tracking trait bonuses and damage dice increases are essentially the same as weapon potency and striking runes for analog and tech (non-archaic) weapons. The upgrades combine property runes (in fact, many have the same mechanical effect as property runes) and modifications in a single (standardized) category.

About the only thing missing from the improvements/upgrades in the playtest is the bayonet or reinforced stock to use a ranged weapon as a (non-improvised) melee weapon. That seems to be a design consideration for SF2, considering the soldier gets Quick Swap and Stock Striker as class feats.

It's not that magic is "out of favor" so much as with tech being so prevalent, individually crafted magic items are less common than tech items having improved versions and installing mix and match upgrades (including hybrid upgrades). There are some instances where "old school" magic items are used (plated vesk armor inscribing armor runes on their scales), but most of the time having mass produced items makes more sense in a setting where tech is omnipresent and even hybrid items can be printed in one hour using a creator capsule with the Fabricator and Machine Magic feats.

Remember, that an Archaic weapon gets the scope, the bayonet, the silencer, and other accessories, in addition to the property runes. Where for a tech or analog weapon, you have to sacrifice the property rune equivalent ability to get one of these. In Pathfinder, it's additional, in Starfinder, it's either one or the other. A tripod in Starfinder has the same mechanical weight now as a Crushing Rune, or a Flaming Rune, where it would be in addition to in Pathfinder

[moosher12]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Regarding the ammo capacity of projectile weapons, I wouldn't be surprised if the SF2 core rules have an upgrade that takes the place of the energetic fusion from the SF1 Armory...

In fact, there is nothing preventing a house rule including a level 5 Energetic upgrade to allow projectile weapons to make "ammunition" using battery charges.

But until then, we have what we have.

[Dragonchess Player]

moosher12 wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Huh.

I must have been imagining the Weapon Improvements table on page 182 of the Playtest Rulebook with the Tracking bonuses, damage dice increases, and upgrades (pages 190-194)...

The Tracking trait bonuses and damage dice increases are essentially the same as weapon potency and striking runes for analog and tech (non-archaic) weapons. The upgrades combine property runes (in fact, many have the same mechanical effect as property runes) and modifications in a single (standardized) category.

About the only thing missing from the improvements/upgrades in the playtest is the bayonet or reinforced stock to use a ranged weapon as a (non-improvised) melee weapon. That seems to be a design consideration for SF2, considering the soldier gets Quick Swap and Stock Striker as class feats.

It's not that magic is "out of favor" so much as with tech being so prevalent, individually crafted magic items are less common than tech items having improved versions and installing mix and match upgrades (including hybrid upgrades). There are some instances where "old school" magic items are used (plated vesk armor inscribing armor runes on their scales), but most of the time having mass produced items makes more sense in a setting where tech is omnipresent and even hybrid items can be printed in one hour using a creator capsule with the Fabricator and Machine Magic feats.

Remember, that an Archaic weapon gets the scope, the bayonet, the silencer, and other accessories, in addition to the property runes. Where for a tech or analog weapon, you have to sacrifice the property rune equivalent ability to get one of these. In Pathfinder, it's additional, in Starfinder, it's either one or the other. A tripod in Starfinder has the same mechanical weight now as a Crushing Rune, or a Flaming Rune, where it would be in addition to in Pathfinder

Except that most weapons start with an upgrade slot, even before they are improved from the commercial versions.

[moosher12]

The initial upgrade slot is speculated to take the place of a special material.

[Driftbourne]

Every once in a while someone here or on Reddit will ask about running Starfinder without magic at all, I don't remember seeing anyone ask if Starfinder should have more magic. In Starfinder 1e I'd say about 90% of the magic I've seen in game was from the PCs. I think that's not a bad way to do it it lets the party kind of self-regulate how much magic there is in a game.

I think the best way to add more background magic to Starfinder is to add some magic-heavy planets outside of the Pact Worlds. That way you can expand the use of magic but keep the old flavor at the same time. Another issue is that advanced technology, storage physics, and alien creature abilities can all appear magical. Also a more scientific approach to studying magic can make magic seem more mundane.

I haven't had a chance to play or read A Cosmic Birthday, but the description sounds like the events in that could have an impact on the level of magic in the Pact Worlds.

I think there should be some difference between Pathfinder magic and Starfinder magic. Having Starfinder magic work with high-tech and Pathfinder magic work with old tech would be one way of doing that. That lets technomancers be technomancers and wizards be wizards.

I wouldn't mind seeing an option to build an almost all-magic-based starship at some point.

[DMurnett]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Except that most weapons start with an upgrade slot, even before they are improved from the commercial versions.

I dunno if you noticed but a scope, bayonet, silencer, and tripod are not a single item. An archaic firearm would be able to have all of them at once on top of property runes by a pretty low level, while a modern one would need to be Paragon to be able to even have all of them, and you'd need to give up the benefits of other upgrades. Between a Sniper's Scope and a Shocking Module, or hell, even a Fear Projector, one of those is clearly better. This was fine in Pathfinder where they didn't compete for the same slots on a weapon, but now it's too tough of a sell for anyone but the most dedicated roleplayers.

[Master Han Del of the Web]

moosher12 wrote:

Most projectile weapons have a maximum of 10 rounds, the one exception being the Machine gun at 20. Some only have 5. There is not currently an option to increase the magazine sizes of projectile weapons.

A barricade buster holds 8 rounds, it is not at all far behind.

Emphasis mine.

Projectile weapons will not be the majority of weapons in the game. Additionally, the developers have already unified the use of petrol-fueled weapons to the battery model. There's a solid chance expanded clips become an option on release.

[Master Han Del of the Web]

Since I now have the PDF open, I can compare things a little better.

Stabilizers:
-PF2e: Tripod, Monopod, Gunner's Saddle, Immovable Tripod, Forked Bipod
There are some eccentric options here, Gunner's Saddle is the mounted version, Immovable Tripod is able to be used without a solid surface, Forked Bipod can be used as a weapon in a pinch. However the all require an action to deploy, meaning they are outclassed by the level 2 version of Starfinder's Bipod which can be deployed or retrieved as a free action once per round.

Mounted Weapons:
-PF2e: Bayonet, Reinforced Stock, Forked Bipod
Currently the playtest only has an underslung grenade launcher as a combined weapon option but considering where SF1e was at the end, I expect there to be a range of options and these two to at least reach parity with SF2e gaining a slight edge on grounds range of options.

Scopes:
-PF2e: Magnifying Scopes, Magnitite Scope, Scope of Truth, Scope of Limning, Darkvision Scope
Again a few eccentric options, but the one-to-one comparison of the Magnifying Scope to SF2e's standard scope blows it out of the water. The other direct comparison would be the Scope of Truth and the Truesight Sight which is just a reskin from a casual read.

Silencers:
-PF2e: Silencer, Golden Silencers
The Golden Silencer is maybe the one place where I'd give PF2e an edge but the standard PF2e silencer is a single use item compared to the playtest's permanent one. There is also significant design space available to port over or improve the Golden Silencer's mechanics.

Firing Mechanisms:
-PF2e: Breech Ejectors, Air Cartridge Firing System, Large Bore Modifications, Underwater Firing Mechanism
The only one really worth noting is Large Bore Modifications because it represents a flat +1 to damage for a correctly built character. Given that weapon upgrades are now functionally weapon runes it does not exactly stand up to things like the Loudener or Shock Module save for it being a damage bonus that did not take up a rune. The other options just bring PF2e firearms a little closer to parity with playtest firearms' basic operation.

While giving up some of the game's version of weapon runes for these things is a trade off, it looks like the pay off is that the developers have much more room to play and make these items significantly more potent in places. Additionally, from an editing standpoint, tracking down everything was a bit of a mess. 'Bipod,' for instance, was not listed under stabilizer weapon customizations despite being the initial option and referenced by just about every other option. Silencers were just a generic item and Golden Silencers were generic magic items.

[Dragonchess Player]

Considering that there are only 3 weapons with the kickback trait in the playtest (breaching gun, injection rifle, sirren-eye rifle), all of which have 1 projectile magazines, arguing that a bipod/tripod is something that needs to be considered as a "fundamental" upgrade option is misleading.

Similarly, arguing that every weapon needs a silencer is misleading. Not every character is going to be sniping from hiding.

That leaves the bayonet and scope. I specifically addressed the bayonet already: "About the only thing missing from the improvements/upgrades in the playtest is the bayonet or reinforced stock to use a ranged weapon as a (non-improvised) melee weapon. That seems to be a design consideration for SF2, considering the soldier gets Quick Swap and Stock Striker as class feats."

So a playtest weapon can have a scope and three upgrades, just like an archaic firearm can have a scope and three property runes. Assassins with less than Strength +2 using a kickback weapon and with no way of casting silence are unfortunately out of luck, but everyone else will hardly see a difference.

If you want to play the customization game, take a look at the force needle: the commercial version starts with 3 upgrade slots. A paragon force needle can be rocking with animated intelligence, retrieval boosters, tactical smuggler's grip, plus three other upgrades of choice. It's also an injection weapon, so it can be loaded with a dose of poison or other substance (using a single interact action with the Inject Serum feat, if you want to do so during combat)...

[moosher12]

Are the options stronger than their Pathfinder equivalents? Of course. But are they worth a rune-equivalent slot? No.

Does my gun need a suppressor? No, but it might want a flash hider or a muzzle break.

If I want a scope and 3 property runes, and I want a muzzle attachment too, I can get all 5 in Pathfinder. Is a flashlight worth a scope, or a fear projector, no. By no means is it even close to being on par. Heck, for a magic weapon, making the weapon glow is a free bonus. A fear projector is worth a rune slot, a flashlight and a bayonet simply are not.

Also, what is the in world justification for limiting analog accessories? Do you have a good justification other than an attempt at balance that's somehow more limiting than Pathfinder?

Pathfinder used the excuse that magic interfered with itself when too much was concentrated within one place.

Technology does not work like this. You might think to say, "They all run on the same battery." But, a bayonet does not need a battery, an underbarrel grenade launcher does not need a battery. Most scopes do not need a battery, and often instead of a battery, they have a light up retical that capture ambient light and focuses it through a filiment, and if they do have a battery, it is such a low power battery that it can last hundreds to thousands of hours constantly on, way beyond that if you only turn it on on fight days. And that is modern technology, what should be considered obsolete by the days of Starfinder. At this point, you're just limiting the equipment just because Rules, but that does not stand up when Pathfinder was more lenient. There's nothing really keeping you from installing a modern suppressor on an archaic firearm, or attaching a modern scope to one. And that firearm will have the slots to take them.

Look at a modern firearm, it'll be limed with MLOK and Picatinny attachment points to take any host of upgrades. Want a scope, a flashlight, a targeting laser, a bipod, a secondary IR flashlight for nightvision compatibility, a bayonet, a suppressor/flash hider/muzzle break. That's not even taking into account other things like secondary flip-scopes, reflex sites, secondary iron sites, and foregrips, which are mechanically inert enough they can be assumed for a gun to already have.

This is what The Lost Omen's Earth is going to look like in about 70-80 years. And Starfinder is supposed to be hundreds to thousands of years in the future. How is modern day earth somehow more advanced than a weapons engineering company at this point?

[moosher12]

What I would suggest, is let lower-tier upgrades be in addition, and impose a trait on higher-tier upgrades to require one of the slots. Perhaps "Charged" so it can reason it needs to compete with other slots for the weapon's power source, or something like that. The same way we have worn Magical items, and worn Invested Magical items.

That way, the attachments that are actually rune equivalent would require a slot, and those that are below rune power do not.

[exequiel759]

I didn't have much experience with SF1e, but there was an in-lore reason to justify magic being less common or it was just something that the devs really didn't focus too much? I know there weren't really full casters in SF1e, but I feel that had to do more with them wanting casters to also be viable with guns rather than being the classic magic bolt slingers of fantasy. The few things I know about the lore of Starfinder doesn't really seem to imply magic is a weird thing or that tech made magic obsolete or something. Starfinder is closer to something like Star Wars or other space operas than Star Trek's hard sci-fi, so if there enougn magic "stuff" in SF1e I would argue it was just a coincidence rather than something that was meant to be like that.

[Master Han Del of the Web]

exequiel759 wrote:

I didn't have much experience with SF1e, but there was an in-lore reason to justify magic being less common or it was just something that the devs really didn't focus too much? I know there weren't really full casters in SF1e, but I feel that had to do more with them wanting casters to also be viable with guns rather than being the classic magic bolt slingers of fantasy. The few things I know about the lore of Starfinder doesn't really seem to imply magic is a weird thing or that tech made magic obsolete or something. Starfinder is closer to something like Star Wars or other space operas than Star Trek's hard sci-fi, so if there enougn magic "stuff" in SF1e I would argue it was just a coincidence rather than something that was meant to be like that.

It was an intentional choice by the developers to cap raw magic a bit while expanding the roles of non-magical classes and gear. There was no in universe justification. As far as Starfinder 1e's continuity was concerned, magic had always been that way.

[moosher12]

I will note a developer is on record saying the irl reason the magic was capped was because there was not enough page space. But yeah, having read the Core Rulebook in its entirety, Han Del is correct that they did make the lore that Magic, while existent, has gone vastly out of favor in favor of technology.

It's a known quantity, but the magic cap was explained that it's gone out of favor to the point that it's just not emphasized enough to practice getting that strong.

Which makes me curious what the restoration to full casting will imply for the setting, as was emphasized in my initial post.

[Master Han Del of the Web]

moosher12 wrote:

Stuff

For the second half of your post, please remember that Starfinder is not a simulationist game and was never intended to be. Turning it into Escape from Tarkov the TTRPG sounds exhausting. This is really like complaining SWTOR is a bad game because the blasters don't have rail attachments.

For the first half, let's try a different track. How much does your kitted out Barricade Buster cost?

[moosher12]

Master Han Del of the Web wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

Stuff

For the second half of your post, please remember that Starfinder is not a simulationist game and was never intended to be. Turning it into Escape from Tarkov the TTRPG sounds exhausting. This is really like complaining SWTOR is a bad game because the blasters don't have rail attachments.

For the first half, let's try a different track. How much does your kitted out Barricade Buster cost?

I agree it's reasonable to not ask me for a hard simulation, but ultimately, what I'm asking for is Pathfinder 2E style modification. If Pathfinder 2E was not already using the system it was. I'd find it more reasonable, but frankly, this feels like a nerf from Pathfinder. If it was fine in Pathfinder, I don't see why it would not be fine here. I mean, if there is records of GMs saying the Pathfinder 2E way of doing it was "Too OP plz nerf," or "Too exhausting, plz simplify,"I'd love to see the threads.

To answer your second question: Kitted out barricade buster would still be expensive, especially if you decide to also enchant the bayonet, and especially if you also decide to enchant the stock for some derranged reason. But money being the limiter is fine for me. I have no qualms with my wallet saying "no" while the system itself says "Potentially, if you have the creds/coin."

The freedom to cry at the price tag, but be able to do it nonetheless, is a nice freedom to have.

[kaid]

Starfinder 1 was odd it looked like at a glance magic was less favored due to the level 6 spell limit but magic was also in basically everything. Even pure tech items often had magic in them or parts made using magic. Magic in that setting is basically in everything. Given that it was weird that higher level magics were not available.

Going with more full compatibility and full casters honestly makes it more consistent with the near ubiquity of magic in the setting.

That said due to how easy it is to get magic effects/abilities via tech stuff anybody can use kinda focuses pure magic use to those really dedicated in it while most of the population likely are just dabblers.

[moosher12]

I apologize for rezzing the thread, but I've been reading through Starfinder 1E books lately to study up on the setting. Particularly, right now I'm going through Armory.

Really I think Weapon Fusions should probably be the Rune equivalent for Analog and Tech weapons.

Keeping Weapon Accessories a more fleshed out, separate system feels like it remains fitting, and would stay aligned with how Pathfinder 2E did it. Starfinder's system of limiting most accessories to rail slots, of a maximum of 4, is already more than reasonable.

And Starfinder did have special materials as well, which means that Level 1 accessory slot can be easily replaced back to a special material. Like getting an adamantine doshko, or a Dawnsilver Machine Gun.

Frankly, I feel like Starfinder weapons can just function like Pathfinder weapons, just swap out Fundamental Runes for Weapon Improvements and Property Runes for for Weapon Fusions. It keeps things simple.

It works the way Pathfinder 2E players are used to it, and largely works the way Starfinder 1E players are used to it. So I think it would make most people player-side happy.