| Chrono180 |
My apologies if this is the wrong place for this post, I wasn't sure where else to put it.
I noticed that two of the 18th level psychic feats don't seem to do anything RAW.
The first-"Deepest Wellspring" states " If you have spent at least 3 Focus Points since the last time you Refocused, you recover 3 Focus Points when you Refocus, even if you spent your Focus Points on spells other than psychic abilities." However the psychic has no way RAW to get 3 focus points. I presume this feat was intended to grant a third but it does not.
The second, "All in your head." Lets you use will for a fortitude or reflex save, however it does not allow the usage of fortress of will or walls of will. The problem is that without fortress of will/walls of will the psychic's Will save is effectively only Expert. At level 18, their fortitude and reflex saves would also be expert. Therefore, this feat provides no benefit.
I wish to bring these issues to Paizo's attention for potential consideration in the next errata cycle.
| Finoan |
You can certainly bring it up to be looked at. Nothing wrong with that.
Some notes that I think of:
Psychic does definitely need looked at for how their focus points are granted and recharged - but not because they can't get three of them. It is definitely possible for a Psychic character to have 3 focus points. The problem is more that their special class feature of having more focus points per battle for each battle all day pretty much went away with the Remaster giving everyone the ability to Refocus up to full.
All In Your Head might not be drastically better than just rolling the Reflex or Fortitude save. It does let you use your Wisdom bonus instead of Dex or Con though.
| Tridus |
The first-"Deepest Wellspring" states " If you have spent at least 3 Focus Points since the last time you Refocused, you recover 3 Focus Points when you Refocus, even if you spent your Focus Points on spells other than psychic abilities." However the psychic has no way RAW to get 3 focus points. I presume this feat was intended to grant a third but it does not.
As mentioned, you can already get 3 focus points (you could also do so via an archetype). This feat does something: you get all the focus points back in 10 minutes vs it taking longer. This less useful than it used to be since the remaster since back then it used to be "you can get back 3 points vs not being able to do that", but it's doing more than nothing.
Maybe not worth taking in a lot of cases, but other classes still have similar feats to allow them to get focus points back faster.
(Oracle is actually in a worse place on this since the way the curse work prevents them from using those focus points on Oracle focus spells despite being able to get them back, but I assume PC2 will fix that.)
Psychic Dedication is another odd case in this since the dedication itself gives you a focus point, but the remaster says your focus pool is equal to the number of focus spells you know. So the language here is either obsolete (you get a focus point by getting a focus spell and what the dedication says is irrelevant) or wrong (you get a focus point from the dedication and a second one from the focus spell the dedication gives).
Just another one of those cases where the Remaster compatibility errata isn't really complete.
| HammerJack |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Chrono180 wrote:The first-"Deepest Wellspring" states " If you have spent at least 3 Focus Points since the last time you Refocused, you recover 3 Focus Points when you Refocus, even if you spent your Focus Points on spells other than psychic abilities." However the psychic has no way RAW to get 3 focus points. I presume this feat was intended to grant a third but it does not.
As mentioned, you can already get 3 focus points (you could also do so via an archetype). This feat does something: you get all the focus points back in 10 minutes vs it taking longer. This less useful than it used to be since the remaster since back then it used to be "you can get back 3 points vs not being able to do that", but it's doing more than nothing.
Maybe not worth taking in a lot of cases, but other classes still have similar feats to allow them to get focus points back faster.
(Oracle is actually in a worse place on this since the way the curse work prevents them from using those focus points on Oracle focus spells despite being able to get them back, but I assume PC2 will fix that.)
Psychic Dedication is another odd case in this since the dedication itself gives you a focus point, but the remaster says your focus pool is equal to the number of focus spells you know. So the language here is either obsolete (you get a focus point by getting a focus spell and what the dedication says is irrelevant) or wrong (you get a focus point from the dedication and a second one from the focus spell the dedication gives).
Just another one of those cases where the Remaster compatibility errata isn't really complete.
The specific rule (remember, specific overrides general) that you gain a focus point in the psychic dedication is actually necessary. It DOESN’T give you a Focus Spell. It gives you a psychic cantrip that can be Amped. Thise aren't accounted for in the general rule and do still require specific rules for the focus points you gain to use them.
| Finoan |
The specific rule (remember, specific overrides general) that you gain a focus point in the psychic dedication is actually necessary. It DOESN’T give you a Focus Spell. It gives you a psychic cantrip that can be Amped. Thise aren't accounted for in the general rule and do still require specific rules for the focus points you gain to use them.
Kind-of a hard sell, actually.
The general rule:
Casting any of your focus spells costs you 1 Focus Point. You automatically gain a focus pool the first time you gain an ability that gives you a focus spell. The maximum number of points in your pool is equal to the number of focus spells you know or 3, whichever is lower. This counts only spells that require Focus Points to cast. For example, a bard's composition cantrips don't count toward the size of the pool.
While the Cantrip itself isn't a focus spell, if an Amped Cantrip isn't a spell that requires Focus Points to cast... what is it?
But yes, Dark Archive needs some errata for Psychic to clean things up so that it is more clear.
| HammerJack |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It is an Amped Cantrip. A class specific special mechanic that ISN'T anything else and which is defined entirely inside of the Psychic class.
If you wanted to describe it in more universal terms, an Amp is closer to a Focus Spellshape than a Focus Spell. (But isn't exactly that, because describing it in more universal terms is an approximation while treating it as the special mechanic it really is will be more exact).
| Finoan |
It is still a spell... and it costs a focus point to cast.
There is some question about if you count the number of ampable cantrips or if you count the number of different Amps that you could apply. Which is where the errata is needed.
But reading it that Psychic doesn't get focus points for their Amps is deliberately reading the rules in a way that causes them to be broken. What is the purpose of that?
| HammerJack |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nothing breaks. I absolutely didn't say anything like "psychic gets no focus points." Psyschic has specific rules stating that it gets 2 focus points to start and and at level 5.
The class has never relied on gaining new amps being part of how it gains focus points.
It is still a spell... and it costs a focus point to cast.
This isn't right. It is still a spell, yes, but it doesn't cost a Focus point to cast. It costs a focus point to modify the spell while casting. That is a mechanic that has always been distinct from focus spells.
| Finoan |
Well, it does sound like the start of an argument saying that Psychic gets no focus points.
Since they don't have any "spells" that cost focus points, then when you use the general rules for how many focus points they have, they get zero.
You start with a focus pool of 2 Focus Points. However, unlike other spellcasters, you don't gain focus spells that cost Focus Points to cast. Instead, you use your Focus Points to boost or modify your psi cantrips by applying amps—specialized thoughtforms that alter the expression of your psychic power. Each of your psi cantrips has a special amp heading. Whenever you cast a psi cantrip, you can amp it by spending 1 Focus Point to add the amp effect. You can also gain additional amps through feats, allowing you to substitute a psi cantrip's normal amp effect for another one. You choose which amp to use, if you choose to use any, each time you cast a psi cantrip. Unless otherwise noted, you can apply only one amp to a given psi cantrip.
Sure. Amps aren't exactly spells. They are spell effects that aren't cast independently from a spell that you cast at the same time.
They are still spell effects that cost a focus point to cast.
When a GM updates Psychic to Remaster rules, the Psychic is likely going to lose the explicit wording of adding focus points and instead use the general rules for how to calculate your maximum number of focus points by counting spells that cost focus points. Which means that a Psychic would get 3 focus points at level 1 - two for the standard cantrip Amps and one for the unique Psi cantrip Amp.
At least - until we get official update errata for Dark Archive that specifies something else for how to run Psychic's focus points and focus pool.
| Squiggit |
Well, it does sound like the start of an argument saying that Psychic gets no focus points.
Since they don't have any "spells" that cost focus points, then when you use the general rules for how many focus points they have, they get zero.
It's a good thing literally the next line of text tells you otherwise.
| Finoan |
Finoan wrote:It's a good thing literally the next line of text tells you otherwise.Well, it does sound like the start of an argument saying that Psychic gets no focus points.
Since they don't have any "spells" that cost focus points, then when you use the general rules for how many focus points they have, they get zero.
Explain how you (you yourself, not a generic 'you') go about converting a "legacy" class with focus spells and focus points to follow the Remaster rules.
| PossibleCabbage |
I think the errata for the Psychic is going to come out after the Oracle since they seem to have a similar issue with focus points- that is, that these are supposed to be classes that are best at refocusing but with the rule change that anybody can refocus fully in 30 minutes something else needs to be for those two classes, but it's probably going to be a similar thing.