Is Paragon Surge OP? I have a character who is an elf but would want this spell. I'm considering having that character do spell research to create a different version of that spell so it can work on elves. I'm wondering if I should make other changes.
https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Paragon%20Surge
I'm mainly interested in the bonus feat.
Some alterations I've been considering:
-Only 1 instance of this spell can be in effect on a creature at a time. Each time the spell is recast on the target, it suppresses the previous instance.
-Also, the feat granted by this spell can't be an item creation feat.
-I might also add a material component cost so the caster isn't encouraged to spam this spell.
Paragon Surge grants one racial ability from both races that the half elf does not have. They gain the stat bonus of an elf and the free feat of a human. That is why the spell only works on half elves. It is amplifying something that the character has but is not manifested. I could see making a race neutral version of the spell that grants just the feat.
If you keep the restrictions on the feat the same as Paragon Surge you don’t need to bother with the restriction you are thinking about adding. Casting the spell multiple times would be pointless because the feat choices are set on the first casting.
Choosing an item creation feat would also be pointless as the spell only last 1 minute per level. I don’t know any item creation feats that allow you to create a magic item in 20 minute or less. The only exception might be an alchemist with swift alchemy but they can already get brew potion.
A material component of an item representing the feat would be highly appropriate.
Note this, from the sorcerer’s shapechanger bloodline:
“Mutable Flesh (Su) At 3rd level, once per day when you cast a transmutation spell with a duration of 1 minute per level that affects only you, you can increase its duration to 10 minutes per level. At 9th level, you can increase the duration to 1 hour per level.”
Unarcane brought this to my attention.
Changing the school to enchantment [mind-affecting] might be a good idea. You are basically giving the target an ability that is mostly mental. Both Bestow Weapon Proficiency and compel tongue are enchantment. Paragon Surge is actually changing you physically into something different. This spell is granting you a new knowledge not transforming you physically. That seems to be more an enchantment than a polymorph spell.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Choosing an item creation feat would also be pointless as the spell only last 1 minute per level. I don’t know any item creation feats that allow you to create a magic item in 20 minute or less. The only exception might be an alchemist with swift alchemy but they can already get brew potion. I'm aware of a trick that lets the caster to make the paragon surge last 24 hours. Something about a sorcerer bloodline and a magic ring that are able to make transmutation spells last longer. With that, you then can pick item creation feats when you cast the spell so you don't need to waste your normal feats to be able to craft magic items. Perhaps I should have mentioned it earlier. I must have assumed everyone has heard of it. I was already trying to protect against it when I when I brought it up.
The enchantment school does sound like a better pick for the new spell's school.
The bonus feat is what makes it. . . out of scale. (I'm not going to say overpowered, but it's definitely better than average.) Once per day being able to add the absolute perfect feat for the situation, be it combat against a specific type of enemy, a Skill unlock, environmental conditions, or meeting new people, is pretty amazing.
And like you pointed out, shapechanger bloodline and ring of continuation can give you all the CRB crafting feats without having to actually spend feats on any of them. There are other shenanigans as well. A feat that you can change to any other feat once per day is very powerful.
A Ring of Continuation only works on spells with duration of 10 minutes per level or greater. Paragon Surge has duration of 1 minute per level. So, if the spell is left as a transmutation spell only a sorcerer with the shapechanger blood line and a ring of continuation is going to be able to use it to actually be able to use Item creation feats. If you change the school to enchantment that eliminates even that loophole.
Even if it works sorcerers are CHA based casters with very few skill points per level. Chances are a sorcerer is not going to have that high of a spellcraft roll. They also have limited number of spells so, have issues with crafting. The can of course that a penalty to their spellcraft roll to ignore the prerequisite of having the appropriate spell, but as I said they are already at a disadvantage when crafting.
The spell craft checks are super low, so it's a non-issue
Dc 5+cl, add 5 for each missing req
Assuming you leave int at 10 (+2 with Paragon surge) and drop a rank every level, you'll have +13 at 9th level and the ability to take 10, so hitting dc 23 without specializing. Makes enough things.
That is assuming you are putting half you skill points into spell craft. Paragon Surge grants a temporary enchantment bonus, so it does not grant any extra skill ranks. I don’t know about you but when I play a sorcerer I want a bit play with more in skills than that. I would rather max out UMD than spellcraft. If I am playing a shapeshifter bloodline sorcerer I am going to want good rolls in disguise, fly and knowledge Arcana as well. Having a social skill besides disguise is also going to be useful.
The penalty on spellcraft for not having the prerequisite is -5 per missing prerequisite. That means the sorcerer using this to gain item creation feats is going to be limited to single prerequisite items.
I don’t see this as being that easy to abuse.
I think the spell should be 3rd level (like paragon surge).
The school will be enchantment.
I'll add a material component cost of 150 gp per casting. I considered 250 gp, but stoneskin has that and its a 4th level spell, so I reduced it a little.
I'm limiting a target to only 1 instance of the spell at a time. Casting the spell again on the same target will have all prior instances of the spell being suppressed by the latest casting.
I'm considering limiting the spell to just combat feats. Hopefully that would limit chances for abuse.
Why not have it behave like Paragon Surge that the feat is set for the day the first time it is cast?
Does it also give the stat bonuses, or just the feat?
The spell will only be giving the target a feat. I want a spell that gives me and my friends feats. My interest in paragon surge was the fact it give you a feat.
I don't want to be restricted to one feat per day. I'm considering the material component cost to counter the ability to get multiple feats per day.
Couple of points from the perspective of "rules balance."
Paragon surge is available to any race as the 4th level domain spell for self-realization domain which means, beyond the usual limitations on who get domain spells, that it would be one spell slot per day, and it also requires a trait tax (Acolyte of Apocrypha).
So bumping it to 4th would seem a reasonable start for expanding the options of targets' race.
However, to expand the target from personal to touch I think you either want to increase level or harder limits to duration (like ironskin 1min/lvl vs barkskin 10min/lvl).
Personal spells are usually ripe for abuse. Even dropping the ability score boosts and limiting it to combat feats is giving the equivalent of Barroom brawler++ to anyone, with possible multiple uses making the spell even better.
With respect to keeping it in line with the above, I would probably consider making going with it as a level 4 spell (or generally +1 to list level) and raise the casting time to 1 round and the duration either a flat 1 min or maybe 1rd/lvl. Good for an encounter, but limits spam buffs through timing and action economy. 4th level prevents (well, sharply reduces options) potion abuse; 1 round casting reduces scroll and wand abuse; going to 5th level would drop wand support entirely.
All that said, paragon surge is strong, but there are brown-fur transmuters that can cast all person range polymorphs (including paragon surge if they have it) on others for the cost of exploits and arcane reservoir points.
I stopped to think about this spell more and I forgot about it completely. Sorry. I remembered about this after paragon surge is being talked about on the forums again.
I've decided that I will cave to the suggestion of only allowing 1 feat per day period. I haven't figured out a good alternative to it. I've read of a few ways that paragon surge can be abused since I first wanted to make a new spell.
I've made one change though. My spell can now be used to grant a skill, not just a feat. Once picked, you can't change it for the remaining day period.
I think I'll call this spell 'Unlock Latent Potential'. Make it enchantment. Maybe make it last 10 minutes per level. It'll be a 3rd level spell. I'm thinking of making it have improved versions at 6th and 9th level as well. The difference being you can make additional picks at with the improved versions.
The description I'm working on:
This spell will unlock your potential, giving you a skill or feat you don't have. When you are first targeted by this spell, pick either a single skill or a single feat. If you pick a skill, you get that skill with the maximum number of ranks you can have in a skill. If you pick a feat, you must pick a feat that you qualify for. Once you make your choice, it is set for the day. Recasting this spell on you during that day period will only result in the same skill or feat that you picked earlier being unlocked. The GM may veto your pick of a feat if they think you require something more than a few skills or talents to benefit (such as the leadership feat).
elsewhere I've commented on this racial spell.
we have Bestow Weapon Proficiency:E2 and nobody is complaining about that.
Brawler gets Martial Flexibility which is pretty great.
I see the flexibility of Paragon Surge as the source of the problem, not the use of a feat. The FAQ addresses this on a day by day basis.
The easiest thing (besides the FAQ) is to restrict it to a type of feat (like combat and/or general). That way you could leave it at 3rd spell level constraining the flexibility and stop most of the (theorhetical) abuses. Make Magical Paragon Surge for metamagic and item creation feats. Equipment Paragon Surge for item mastery and weapon/shield mastery feats. etc
The other method employed in class abilities, spells, and feats is to provide a list of acceptable human and elf themed feats. This is going to meet with the most push back but allow the FAQ to be ignored. I think this is the option current writers would use but it blocks future options. Many post production fixes tended to overfix the problem.
I don't think the designers took this second step as they thought the FAQ would stop most of the problems with minimal effort for the racial 3rd and open 4th version.
Well, the flexible feat is the thing I want. I can discard all the rest of paragon surge. I don't want a spell that works for only 1 race. Other than that, I figured the spell itself would be a good starting point. I'm guessing you don't agree. Is the spell level too low? Its why I started out asking if Paragon Surge was too powerful.
A problem with having a spell for each feat group is it reduces flexibility. It creates a bunch of spells that lacks flexibility to the point where no one bothers preparing the spells. Its like a spell that only works on dragons; you wouldn't prepare it unless you knew you were going to fight a dragon that day. At least that is what I fear.
Creating magic items using spells is how magic item creation used to work for earlier versions of DND. I don't think anyone will bother learning item creation feats if they could learn a single spell that could cover all of that. So I'd like to scratch that off the list.
OmniMage wrote: Well, the flexible feat is the thing I want. ... you're just missing the facts and advice on how to do something in my post and just saying stuff.
Post your spell in Homebrew and see how it goes.
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