1. Why are the Eyes called such? I mean, in Spires of Xin-Shalast, I could understand why the Eye of Avarice was named such, because it was round, just like an eye. But in Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, the shape of the Eye of Avarice changed drastically. I still have no idea what is the reason behind this change (I honestly likes the former version more). Why are they called the Eye, even though they don't look like an eye anymore?
2. I thought that no plane is infinite. Even the Abyss, which is the biggest among the planes, is not infinite. But if there is an endless void outside the wall of the Eye and Runeforge, does that mean these demiplanes are infinite?
3. It is mentioned that the lava lake in the Eye of Fury is only 20 feet deep. But there is no such a mention about the Eye of Avarice. Is the lava lake in the Eye of Avarice bottomless?
4. Are the Eyes and Runeforge in the same demiplane? I mean, for example, can I literally fly from the Eye of Avarice to the Eye of Desire or to Runeforge, if I know the correct direction? Can I move from one Eye to another Eye using Teleport or Gate spell?
5. The book said that I can get into or get out of Runeforge using Plane Shift or Gate spell. How about the Eyes? Can I get into or get out of the Eye of Avarice or the Eye of Fury using Plane Shift or Gate spell, without touching the anima focus? I'm honestly not sure about this because, if I can, then surely Karzoug would have escaped the Eye of Avarice long ago using Gate.
6. According to page 66 of Rise of the New Thassilon, a massive cascade of molten rock tumbles to one side of the Eye of Fury, yet the lava lake itself is only 20 feet deep and never rises or falls in volume. Where does this lava come from? Is there a possibility of two small portals, one for the lava to come in and another for the lave to go out, connecting the Eye of Fury (and the Eye of Avarice too, since there is also a lava lake in that demiplane) to the Plane of Fire?
7. According to page 253 of Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, Runeforge sustains those within its walls constantly, keeping them nourished and reviving the body and mind. No creature needs to eat, drink, or sleep in Runeforge, except for pleasure. Air is constantly refreshed in Runeforge, and the air supply in the complex never runs out despite the fact that the dungeon is entirely enclosed. Do the Eyes have the same feature? I personally think they do, because if not, the runelords who sheltered themselves in the Eyes (Alaznist, Karzoug, and Sorshen) would have died of starvation long ago.
8. What is the pyramid-like building on page 2 of Rise of the New Thassilon? Is it the Grand Mastaba in Korvosa, or the Sunken Queen? Both buildings look like a pyramid so I honestly have no idea. As far as I know, each side of the Sunken Queen is embossed with a bas-relief sculpture of the naked Runelord Sorshen. But according to the art on page 2 of Rise of the New Thassilon, only one side of that particular building has the bas-relief sculpture of the naked Sorshen. Is each side of the Grand Mastaba also embossed with a bas-relief sculpture of the naked Runelord Sorshen?
9. A female god is called a goddess. A female king is called a queen. A female lord is called a lady. A female master is called a mistress. Then, shouldn't a female runelord be called a runelady?
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1. Why are the Eyes called such? I mean, in Spires of Xin-Shalast, I could understand why the Eye of Avarice was named such, because it was round, just like an eye. But in Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, the shape of the Eye of Avarice changed drastically. I still have no idea what is the reason behind this change (I honestly likes the former version more). Why are they called the Eye, even though they don't look like an eye anymore?
They're called eyes because they're at the center of power for the runelords who managed to create runewells. When you look at a well from above, it's round like an eye in the center. Also, it's a metaphor not only for being at the "eye of a hurricane" but also because they could lurk in there and use magic to look out upon the world and influence it. It's as much a metaphor as much as anything else.
2. I thought that no plane is infinite. Even the Abyss, which is the biggest among the planes, is not infinite. But if there is an endless void outside the wall of the Eye and Runeforge, does that mean these demiplanes are infinite?
The void outside the wall is not part of the demiplane, which is infinite. That void is the nothing between all realities.
3. It is mentioned that the lava lake in the Eye of Fury is only 20 feet deep. But there is no such a mention about the Eye of Avarice. Is the lava lake in the Eye of Avarice bottomless?
No, you can go with 20 feet deep there too.
4. Are the Eyes and Runeforge in the same demiplane? I mean, for example, can I literally fly from the Eye of Avarice to the Eye of Desire or to Runeforge, if I know the correct direction? Can I move from one Eye to another Eye using Teleport or Gate spell?
Each is their own demiplane. You'd have to use planar travel to go directly from one to the other, but would also have to contend with these being tightly controlled demiplanes that have additional restrictions as to who can come and go from them.
5. The book said that I can get into or get out of Runeforge using Plane Shift or Gate spell. How about the Eyes? Can I get into or get out of the Eye of Avarice or the Eye of Fury using Plane Shift or Gate spell, without touching the anima focus? I'm honestly not sure about this because, if I can, then surely Karzoug would have escaped the Eye of Avarice long ago using Gate.
These demiplanes have powerful wards to keep things from coming and going. The whole point of them is that they're essentially magical "panic rooms" created by some of the most powerful wizards on the planet, and managed to endure Earthfall. They have only very specific and limited ways to come and go from them, as detailed in the adventures. If Karzoug could have used gate to escape, he would have. He didn't do so, thus he couldn't do so.
Keep in mind that there's pagecount restrictions for the amount of rules details we can put into an adventure, which has to put story before rules in a lot of cases. For things like this, where one might come up with an idea for how Karzoug could have escaped that the text specifically doesn't give rules for when the story lore itself says he can't escape, that means there's reasons that it wouldn't work and you the GM can make those up if the players are unlikely enough to ask... or you can always come here I guess and ask for clarificaiton, but in that case ALSO keep in mind that answers provided via the boards here are not canon, since they're not printed and haven't gone through the same quality-control process that our printed words do.6. According to page 66 of Rise of the New Thassilon, a massive cascade of molten rock tumbles to one side of the Eye of Fury, yet the lava lake itself is only 20 feet deep and never rises or falls in volume. Where does this lava come from? Is there a possibility of two small portals, one for the lava to come in and another for the lave to go out, connecting the Eye of Fury (and the Eye of Avarice too, since there is also a lava lake in that demiplane) to the Plane of Fire?
It's created by the demiplane.
7. According to page 253 of Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, Runeforge sustains those within its walls constantly, keeping them nourished and reviving the body and mind. No creature needs to eat, drink, or sleep in Runeforge, except for pleasure. Air is constantly refreshed in Runeforge, and the air supply in the complex never runs out despite the fact that the dungeon is entirely enclosed. Do the Eyes have the same feature? I personally think they do, because if not, the runelords who sheltered themselves in the Eyes (Alaznist, Karzoug, and Sorshen) would have died of starvation long ago.
Keep in mind that the Runelords are in stasis in the eyes, and therefore wouldn't need any of that stuff anyway. Once they wake up, they'll need to use magic and their ability to manipulate their creations to stay fed and all that in the event that they can't escape for what are effectively story reasons.
8. What is the pyramid-like building on page 2 of Rise of the New Thassilon? Is it the Grand Mastaba in Korvosa, or the Sunken Queen? Both buildings look like a pyramid so I honestly have no idea. As far as I know, each side of the Sunken Queen is embossed with a bas-relief sculpture of the naked Runelord Sorshen. But according to the art on page 2 of Rise of the New Thassilon, only one side of that particular building has the bas-relief sculpture of the naked Sorshen. Is each side of the Grand Mastaba also embossed with a bas-relief sculpture of the naked Runelord Sorshen?
That is an illustration of the Sunken Queen getting hit by Earthfall fragments. The fact that some sides don't have a carving of Sorshen on them is an art error.
9. A female god is called a goddess. A female king is called a queen. A female lord is called a lady. A female master is called a mistress. Then, shouldn't a female runelord be called a runelady?
Not in this case. If the word were kept as two separate words, like "rune lord" then perhaps, but as a compound word it's gender neutral.
Thank you very much James. I have a few follow-up questions.
1. You said the lava is created by the demiplane. Then where does the excess lava go? I mean, in the Eye of Fury, the lava lake never rises or falls in volume, even though the massive cascade of molten rock keeps adding more lava.
2. Does the Grand Mastaba also have the bas-relief sculpture of the naked Sorshen on each side of it?
3. According to page 9 of Cult of Cinders, nothing exists outside of the walls of the Huntergate way station, and any attempt to dig into the surrounding stone reveals only more stone. As you can see, unlike the Eyes or Runeforge, the walls of the Huntergate way station don't end at all. No matter how much I dig, the wall will never end and I cannot see the endless void outside the wall, if it exists at all. Does that mean the way stations of Alseta's Ring are indeed infinite demiplanes?
4. If the Eyes, Runeforge, and the way stations of Alseta's Ring are demiplanes, then where are they located? In the Astral Plane perhaps?
5. The Void is another name for the Negative Energy Plane. And it is mentioned that outside the wall of the Eyes and Runeforge there is the void. Does that mean the Eyes and Runeforge are somewhere in the Negative Energy Plane?
6. The collective term for the Seven Swords of Sin is the Alara'hai. The collective term for the set of intelligent weapons crafted by Xin for the runelords as their symbols of office is the Alara'quin. Then what is the collective term for the Eye of Arrogance, the Eye of Avarice, the Eye of Desire, the Eye of Fury, and the Eye of Jealousy? At first I thought the answer is the runewells, but later I discovered that the runewells are not as same as the Eyes.
7. Does Xin have any special weapon like the Alara'quin?
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1. You said the lava is created by the demiplane. Then where does the excess lava go? I mean, in the Eye of Fury, the lava lake never rises or falls in volume, even though the massive cascade of molten rock keeps adding more lava.
It gets destroyed/recycled.
2. Does the Grand Mastaba also have the bas-relief sculpture of the naked Sorshen on each side of it?
Nope.
3. According to page 9 of Cult of Cinders, nothing exists outside of the walls of the Huntergate way station, and any attempt to dig into the surrounding stone reveals only more stone. As you can see, unlike the Eyes or Runeforge, the walls of the Huntergate way station don't end at all. No matter how much I dig, the wall will never end and I cannot see the endless void outside the wall, if it exists at all. Does that mean the way stations of Alseta's Ring are indeed infinite demiplanes?
That's different ways of representing the same thing, and is just us trying to give tools to GMs who have stubborn players who want to "dig out" of a demiplane's borders. We could have just as easilly said, in both cases, that nothing works for any attempts to dig out, but to me, that feels even more arbitrary and frustrating. In the vast majority of cases, players won't try to dig out of finite planes, so it's admittedly a lot of word space spent on a corner case.
4. If the Eyes, Runeforge, and the way stations of Alseta's Ring are demiplanes, then where are they located? In the Astral Plane perhaps?
The concept of all demiplanes being "located" in the Astral Plane is D&D. That's not Pathifnder lore. Demiplanes aren't really located "anywhere"; that's what makes them other planes in the first place. The "demi" bit arises from them being smaller in scope.
5. The Void is another name for the Negative Energy Plane. And it is mentioned that outside the wall of the Eyes and Runeforge there is the void. Does that mean the Eyes and Runeforge are somewhere in the Negative Energy Plane?
No. When we talk about the Void as a plane, it's a proper noun and we capitalize it. When we talk about a void when it comes to a large empty space, be it in outerspace or between planes or an empty space in stone or whatever, it's not capitalized; it's just using that word for its normal definition.
6. The collective term for the Seven Swords of Sin is the Alara'hai. The collective term for the set of intelligent weapons crafted by Xin for the runelords as their symbols of office is the Alara'quin. Then what is the collective term for the Eye of Arrogance, the Eye of Avarice, the Eye of Desire, the Eye of Fury, and the Eye of Jealousy? At first I thought the answer is the runewells, but later I discovered that the runewells are not as same as the Eyes.
There is no collective term for those yet. Maybe we'll make one up some day, but they're not as universal. Every runelord had a sword and a polearm, but not every runelord had a runewell or an Eye. The sword and polearm element tradition for runelords goes back to the start of their rule over Thassilon, wheras runewells and the Eyes only popped up at the end.
7. Does Xin have any special weapon like the Alara'quin?
No, because he's not a runelord. He had some powerful magic items though but I'm not sure we've said much about those yet, beyond what we explored in Shattered Star's final volume.
I had a question that I didn't think warranted a thread of its own, so this seems to be the place...
What do Runelords call themselves?
For example, does Karzoug call himself The Runelord of Greed? Or does he call himself the Runelord of Charity? The Runelord of Shalast?
"The Rightfull Heir of Xin, True Emperor of all Thallisson".
Sure the empire instantly split up the moment Xin was gone, but to me most runelords (except maybe Sorshen and Xanderghul, due to being there from the start) ended up believing that they'll be the one who will unify Thallisson under their control, and that the other runelords are no equal of them. So in my headcanon, all runelords call the other 6 "Runelord of Shalast/Barakhan/etc" and themselves "Emperor of Thalisson"
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I had a question that I didn't think warranted a thread of its own, so this seems to be the place...
What do Runelords call themselves?
For example, does Karzoug call himself The Runelord of Greed? Or does he call himself the Runelord of Charity? The Runelord of Shalast?
Yup; they call themselves runelords. Either just Runelord, or Runelord Karzoug, or Runelord of Greed, but mostly it'd be Runelord of Shalast. They would never associate it with the positive side of their magic, so never Runelord of Charity.
The word "Runelord" in this case is analagous to king or queen. So anytime you'd use one of those in front of a name or position would work.
This is different than the runelord archeypte—that's a very recent addition to the world that rose from modern folks developing something that apes what a traditional runelord is. Back in the day of ancient Thassilon, this archetype didn't exist.
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I had a question that I didn't think warranted a thread of its own, so this seems to be the place...
What do Runelords call themselves?
For example, does Karzoug call himself The Runelord of Greed? Or does he call himself the Runelord of Charity? The Runelord of Shalast?
Yup; they call themselves runelords. Either just Runelord, or Runelord Karzoug, or Runelord of Greed, but mostly it'd be Runelord of Shalast. They would never associate it with the positive side of their magic, so never Runelord of Charity.
The word "Runelord" in this case is analagous to king or queen. So anytime you'd use one of those in front of a name or position would work.
This is different than the runelord archeypte—that's a very recent addition to the world that rose from modern folks developing something that apes what a traditional runelord is. Back in the day of ancient Thassilon, this archetype didn't exist.
I find this last tidbit most fascinating. Thank you, James.
The concept of all demiplanes being "located" in the Astral Plane is D&D. That's not Pathifnder lore. Demiplanes aren't really located "anywhere"; that's what makes them other planes in the first place. The "demi" bit arises from them being smaller in scope.
The Create Demiplane ritual (and the 1e spell before it) both state that the demiplane created exists in either the Astral or Ethereal plane. Planar Adventures also reinforces this with its descriptions of the Astral and Ethereal Planes. Is the ritual/spell the exception to that rule, or is there a lore change that I missed?
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The concept of all demiplanes being "located" in the Astral Plane is D&D. That's not Pathifnder lore. Demiplanes aren't really located "anywhere"; that's what makes them other planes in the first place. The "demi" bit arises from them being smaller in scope.The Create Demiplane ritual (and the 1e spell before it) both state that the demiplane created exists in either the Astral or Ethereal plane. Planar Adventures also reinforces this with its descriptions of the Astral and Ethereal Planes. Is the ritual/spell the exception to that rule, or is there a lore change that I missed?
Lots of demiplanes exist in the Astral or Ethereal, but not all of them.
1. Wait, what? Back in the day of ancient Thassilon, the runelord archetype didn't exist?
I have always thought that Xin created the runelord archetype and taught his apprentices (the first seven runelords) this archetype. But if there was not the runelord archetype and it is merely a very recent and modern development...
Assume that, after the rules for the runelord archetype is published for Pathfinder Remaster, Paizo decides to publish Rise of the Runelords again using the Pathfinder Remaster rules. Then, if you build the stats for Karzoug and his apprentice Khalib as if they are PCs (instead of NPCs, I mean), would you give them the runelord archytype?
9. A female god is called a goddess. A female king is called a queen. A female lord is called a lady. A female master is called a mistress. Then, shouldn't a female runelord be called a runelady?Not in this case. If the word were kept as two separate words, like "rune lord" then perhaps, but as a compound word it's gender neutral.
2. Hmm, interesting. Perhaps that's why Shorafa Pamodae in Riddleport is called a crimelord instead of crimelady, and why Neferpatra Ahnkamen in Absalom is called the scion lady and the first lady of laws? But strangely, Lady Darchana of House Madinani is called the second spell lord of Absalom instead of spell lady, so I'm really confused.
Anyway, if that is the case, does that mean female demon lords, qlippoth lords, empyreal lords, and pirate lords like Lamashtu, Nocticula, Oaur-Ooung, Arshea and Tessa Fairwind should be called demon ladies, qlippoth ladies, and empyreal ladies instead? I guess the proper terms for female infernal dukes, female monitor demigods, female protean lords, female balor lords, and male Queens of the Night would be infernal duchesses, monitor demigoddesses, protean ladies, balor ladies, and Kings of the Night (or perhaps Whore King?) then?
3. I also discovered that Jilia Bainilus of Kintargo and Sabriyya Kalmeralm of Magnimar are called lord-mayors instead of lady-mayors. I'm not sure if there has ever been a female watcher-lord in Lastwall, but I wonder if they would have been called watcher-ladies? But the real world female Lord Mayors of London are just called lord mayors, not lady mayors.
4. What is the reason for Paizo's decision to use the term lord-mayor instead of lord mayor? I mean, in the real world, the City of London uses the title lord mayor, not lord-mayor. Even in Lost Omens, there exists the title lord mayor as well (Ioseph Sellemius of Restov is one). So why did you choose to use the unhistorical title instead?
5. By the way, can you tell me what's the reason behind the complete redesign of the Eye of Avarice in Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition? Not sure if you made this decision, though.
1. Wait, what? Back in the day of ancient Thassilon, the runelord archetype didn't exist?
I have always thought that Xin created the runelord archetype and taught his apprentices (the first seven runelords) this archetype. But if there was not the runelord archetype and it is merely a very recent and modern development...
Assume that, after the rules for the runelord archetype is published for Pathfinder Remaster, Paizo decides to publish Rise of the Runelords again using the Pathfinder Remaster rules. Then, if you build the stats for Karzoug and his apprentice Khalib as if they are PCs (instead of NPCs, I mean), would you give them the runelord archytype?
Not James, but I took the point to mean that the original Runelords were more or less unique individuals. The Runelord archetype didn't exist because the Runelord archetype is for modern wizards to mimic their singular and unique trend without necessarily grasping their power. You couldn't make a Runelord using PC abilities because there is no game mechanic to model creating and tapping into a runewell and possessing mythically powerful wizardry.
I struggle to imagine how the difference between lord-mayor and lord mayor could have any meaning when most hyphenated words are treated as synonymous with their unhyphenated counterparts, but then the gritty particulars of titles have never really grabbed me all that much.
Not James, but I took the point to mean that the original Runelords were more or less unique individuals. The Runelord archetype didn't exist because the Runelord archetype is for modern wizards to mimic their singular and unique trend without necessarily grasping their power. You couldn't make a Runelord using PC abilities because there is no game mechanic to model creating and tapping into a runewell and possessing mythically powerful wizardry.
Well, because in First Edition, Alaznist, Belimarius, Karzoug, Krune, Sorshen, Xanderghul, and Zutha were built using the Thassilonian specialist archetype, which was the First Edition equivalent of the runelord archetype. So I thought ancient Thassilonian wizards did use the runelord archetype.
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The runelord archetype isn't just about being a "thassilonian specialist" from 1e tho, it also include the "grafting aeon stones into your flesh" and "fight with a polearm" aspect of the runelords.
But I think James point was more about the semantic of it, in ancient thassilon "thassilonian specialist" was simply the baseline for a wizard, it's those that didn't cast their spell like that who were weird, so they didn't had name for this kind of spellcasting, it was just normal wizardry. Perhaps did they call it "thassilonian magic" to separate it from the magic of the Azlants and other part of the world, but they certainly didn't call all those using that magic "runelords", which was the title of their leaders.
But in the modern world, where the return of this kind of wizardry was heralded by the return of the runelords (tm), the modern wizards who use this magic call themselves runelords, and tend to also copy not just the thassilonian spellcasting, but also the "trappings" of the old runelords, yeilding the same kind of weapons as them and grafting aeon stone into their flesh like them. I'm pretty sure runelords of old would see current wizard with this archetype as "poseurs" trying to copy them.
At least that's how I see it. As far as the remaining runelords are concerned, I'm headcanoning Sorshen as being amused by the rise of these new "runelords", and Bellimarius as infuriated by all these people trivializing a title only she and Sorshen deserve.
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In 2E you don't build enemies as you do PCs. You use the monster creation rules. There's no need for an archetype, because archetypes are player options, you can give similar benefits to NPCs but don't need to worry about making them a 1:1 PC build like you did in 1E.
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1. Wait, what? Back in the day of ancient Thassilon, the runelord archetype didn't exist?
I have always thought that Xin created the runelord archetype and taught his apprentices (the first seven runelords) this archetype. But if there was not the runelord archetype and it is merely a very recent and modern development...
Assume that, after the rules for the runelord archetype is published for Pathfinder Remaster, Paizo decides to publish Rise of the Runelords again using the Pathfinder Remaster rules. Then, if you build the stats for Karzoug and his apprentice Khalib as if they are PCs (instead of NPCs, I mean), would you give them the runelord archytype?
Xin created the Thassilonian schools of magic and the wizardly tradition that you specialize in one school at the expense of two opposing schools. You don't and didn't have to be a "runelord" to do this, just be a wizard who chose to specialize that way. The word "runelord" was created by those who took over after him, and was a title like King or Queen. Other wizards in Thassilon kept using the rune magic specialization techniques, but only if you took over a nation in Thassilon and ruled it and had all that stuff that went along with it did you become called a runelord. The archetype is an invention of more modern inhabitants who discovered this method of wizardly specialzation and combined it with lore about the specialized skills and pursuits of the runelords themselves. In a world where we publish a remastered Rise of the Runelords adventure and have the runelord archetype available, I would build Karzoug's stats and his apprentices as NPCs because they're still NPCs, and give them as similar a statblock as I could to their original publication, and PCs in that campaign would not have access to the runelord archetype because in the timeline, it hadn't been invented yet.
2. Hmm, interesting. Perhaps that's why Shorafa Pamodae in Riddleport is called a crimelord instead of crimelady, and why Neferpatra Ahnkamen in Absalom is called the scion lady and the first lady of laws? But strangely, Lady Darchana of House Madinani is called the second spell lord of Absalom instead of spell lady, so I'm really confused.
Anyway, if that is the case, does that mean female demon lords, qlippoth lords, empyreal lords, and pirate lords like Lamashtu, Nocticula, Oaur-Ooung, Arshea and Tessa Fairwind should be called demon ladies, qlippoth ladies, and empyreal ladies instead? I guess the proper terms for female infernal dukes, female monitor demigods, female protean lords, female balor lords, and male Queens of the Night would be infernal duchesses, monitor demigoddesses, protean ladies, balor ladies, and Kings of the Night (or perhaps Whore King?) then?
It's a case by case bases when we decide a word containing the letters "lord" is gender neutral or not. Demon lords and Empyreal lords are also gender neutral. Hurricane King/Queen is not. It's all up to us at Paizo as to how these in-world titles function; the closer to a real world thing they get, the more likely we are to keep gender attached, but also as gender is more complicated than a binary option (male or female), that whole trope of attaching a gender to a word or role is increasingly becoming archaic and something we're moving away from where and when we can.
3. I also discovered that Jilia Bainilus of Kintargo and Sabriyya Kalmeralm of Magnimar are called lord-mayors instead of lady-mayors. I'm not sure if there has ever been a female watcher-lord in Lastwall, but I wonder if they would have been called watcher-ladies? But the real world female Lord Mayors of London are just called lord mayors, not lady mayors.
See answers to questions 1 and 2 above.
4. What is the reason for Paizo's decision to use the term lord-mayor instead of lord mayor? I mean, in the real world, the City of London uses the title lord mayor, not lord-mayor. Even in Lost Omens, there exists the title lord mayor as well (Ioseph Sellemius of Restov is one). So why did you choose to use the unhistorical title instead?
Partially tradition inspired by previous games, personal preference of Erik Mona who was making those decisions at the time as the boss editor, and a little bit of chance.
5. By the way, can you tell me what's the reason behind the complete redesign of the Eye of Avarice in Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition? Not sure if you made this decision, though.
I made that change to make the finale of the entire campaign more interesting.
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Not James, but I took the point to mean that the original Runelords were more or less unique individuals. The Runelord archetype didn't exist because the Runelord archetype is for modern wizards to mimic their singular and unique trend without necessarily grasping their power. You couldn't make a Runelord using PC abilities because there is no game mechanic to model creating and tapping into a runewell and possessing mythically powerful wizardry.Well, because in First Edition, Alaznist, Belimarius, Karzoug, Krune, Sorshen, Xanderghul, and Zutha were built using the Thassilonian specialist archetype, which was the First Edition equivalent of the runelord archetype. So I thought ancient Thassilonian wizards did use the runelord archetype.
Nope. Archetypes as we presented them in the rules didn't come about until the creation of the Advanced Player's Guide, which came out many years and an entire edition after Rise of the Runelords.
The Thassilonian specialization rules were something I created for my homebrew back in the late 80s, and were a bit of parallel design with how 2nd edition AD&D ended up presenting wizard specializations. When we started doing our own setting after losing the D&D license, two years BEFORE the publication of the Pathifnder RPG, I brought in a lot of content from my homebrew because it was stuff that existed already, had been playtested for over a decade, was not official D&D content, and was mine to "give" to Paizo. It's why we were able to switch from doing world content for the D&D settings to Golarion without missing a month between the last issue of Dungeon and Dragon magazine and the first volume of Pathfinder—I didn't have to create things like the runelords, their magic, things like starknives or Desna or Magnimar, etc. and could just bring that content forward and bolster it (with help from Wes, James Sutter, Erik, Jason Bulmahn, and others) with new content to make our own setting as we went.
Those wizard specialization rules remained pretty much unchanged in Pathfinder 1st edition, and continued to be used for NPCs in adventures involving Thassilon's legacy, and increasingly was an option for PC wizards to take.
For a long time, as the Pathfinder RPG grew more popular and successful, some of us at Paizo (myself very much included) wanted to create a new class called the "runelord" that we could use to give players that option, but adding new classes to the game was and remains one of the most complicated things we do and there was never the right time or place or universal agreement in the creative department about this route to make it happen. That continued through to 2nd edition.
The Runelord archetype didn't exist until Secrets of Magic. It never existed as an archetype in 1st edition or the 3.5 era.
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...also as gender is more complicated than a binary option (male or female), that whole trope of attaching a gender to a word or role is increasingly becoming archaic and something we're moving away from where and when we can.
Hear! Hear! English has needed updates on this front for a long time.
So, I really wonder how Sorshen's kingdom of New Thassilon works, just geographically? Xin-Shalast is kind of inaccessible to normal people, so either the artists and outcasts who immigrate need to be somewhat high level or there are villages/small towns in more accessible areas. Also, economically, I wonder what Sorshen's part of New Thassilon produces to run their economy.
Also, is Sorshen keeping the fuzzy-wuzzy Hallowed Lynx' around, despite them having an evil alignment for some reason? Well, not that it's much of a problem anymore, due to alignment very recently having been removed. But still, they probably have some edict for coughing up furballs containing Shining Children on passerbies, or something like that. Asking the important questions here, because those very powerful fuzzballs are just too cute to not be part of her petting zoo.
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So, I really wonder how Sorshen's kingdom of New Thassilon works, just geographically? Xin-Shalast is kind of inaccessible to normal people, so either the artists and outcasts who immigrate need to be somewhat high level or there are villages/small towns in more accessible areas. Also, economically, I wonder what Sorshen's part of New Thassilon produces to run their economy.
Also, is Sorshen keeping the fuzzy-wuzzy Hallowed Lynx' around, despite them having an evil alignment for some reason? Well, not that it's much of a problem anymore, due to alignment very recently having been removed. But still, they probably have some edict for coughing up furballs containing Shining Children on passerbies, or something like that. Asking the important questions here, because those very powerful fuzzballs are just too cute to not be part of her petting zoo.
One of these days I hope we'll have the chance to explore New Thassilon in more details, but until then those details will have to wait.
One of these days I hope we'll have the chance to explore New Thassilon in more details, but until then those details will have to wait.So, I really wonder how Sorshen's kingdom of New Thassilon works, just geographically? Xin-Shalast is kind of inaccessible to normal people, so either the artists and outcasts who immigrate need to be somewhat high level or there are villages/small towns in more accessible areas. Also, economically, I wonder what Sorshen's part of New Thassilon produces to run their economy.
Also, is Sorshen keeping the fuzzy-wuzzy Hallowed Lynx' around, despite them having an evil alignment for some reason? Well, not that it's much of a problem anymore, due to alignment very recently having been removed. But still, they probably have some edict for coughing up furballs containing Shining Children on passerbies, or something like that. Asking the important questions here, because those very powerful fuzzballs are just too cute to not be part of her petting zoo.
Dangit, I knew Hallowed Lynx' were cool, but I didn't know that they fall under the current state secrets Paizo is keeping in their treasure vault. :p
Nope. Archetypes as we presented them in the rules didn't come about until the creation of the Advanced Player's Guide, which came out many years and an entire edition after Rise of the Runelords.
As far as I know, the Thassilonian specialist archetype in First Edition was introduced in Inner Sea Magic, which was published in July 2011. And Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition was published in July 2012. So I thought that the runelords were built using the Thassilonian specialist archetype. And also I thought that the Thassilonian specialist archetype in First Edition is equal to the runelord archetype in Second Edition. But turns out they are two similar but different archetypes? Perhaps Paizo will publish the Thassilonian specialist archetype for Pathfinder Remaster someday? Or perhaps the two are actually identical, and just like the runelord archetype, the Thassilonian specialist archetype was a very recent addition to the world that rose from modern folks developing something that apes what a traditional runelord is?
Anyway, if you are gamemastering for a group set in pre-Earthfall Thassilon using the First Edition rules or the pre-Remaster Second Edition rules (since the specifics of the Remaster runelord archetype are still unclear to me), and one of the PCs is an apprentice of Runelord Karzoug with aspiration to become the Runelord of Greed someday, would you allow him access to the Thassilonian specialist archetype or the runelord archetype, or would you force him to be a normal transmuter instead?
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Not James (again), but from what I recall: The Thassilonian specialist for PF1 wizards is more limited than the runelord archetype for PF2 wizards.
The Thassilonian specialist gives an extra bonus slot to cast a prepared spell from their school twice for giving up the ability to learn, cast, or use spell completion/spell trigger items spells from two specific prohibited schools; that's it, no other extras. It's just a variant of a regular school specialist. Normal specialist wizards had more flexibility in choosing opposition schools (in both D&D 3.x and PF1) and in PF1 could still learn, cast (if prepared using two slots), or use spells from their opposition schools.
The runelord archetype gives proficiency in polearms, an extra focus spell, a refocus option to regain extra focus points, prohibited schools, and access to feats that are (mostly) unavailable to "normal" wizards.
In PF2 (pre-remaster), a Thassilonian specialist wizard could probably be simulated by the extra focus spell, the refocus option, and prohibited schools with no other benefits; other than possibly access to the crafting feats (Embed Aeon Stone and Tattoo Artist). They would need to use other feats (either ancestry or general) for weapon proficiency. Remastered PF2 is removing the old schools and the runelords/Thassilonian magic will be getting an update at some time in the future.
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Dangit, I knew Hallowed Lynx' were cool, but I didn't know that they fall under the current state secrets Paizo is keeping in their treasure vault. :pOne of these days I hope we'll have the chance to explore New Thassilon in more details, but until then those details will have to wait.So, I really wonder how Sorshen's kingdom of New Thassilon works, just geographically? Xin-Shalast is kind of inaccessible to normal people, so either the artists and outcasts who immigrate need to be somewhat high level or there are villages/small towns in more accessible areas. Also, economically, I wonder what Sorshen's part of New Thassilon produces to run their economy.
Also, is Sorshen keeping the fuzzy-wuzzy Hallowed Lynx' around, despite them having an evil alignment for some reason? Well, not that it's much of a problem anymore, due to alignment very recently having been removed. But still, they probably have some edict for coughing up furballs containing Shining Children on passerbies, or something like that. Asking the important questions here, because those very powerful fuzzballs are just too cute to not be part of her petting zoo.
They don't. They're in the category of "There's a lot to talk about New Thassilon and the things that live there and more that we haven't had a chance to do much with since, so far, the only thing we've published that's focused on New Thassilon in a significant way is Rusthenge."
Not a secret, but just not yet on our announced production schedule.
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Nope. Archetypes as we presented them in the rules didn't come about until the creation of the Advanced Player's Guide, which came out many years and an entire edition after Rise of the Runelords.As far as I know, the Thassilonian specialist archetype in First Edition was introduced in Inner Sea Magic, which was published in July 2011. And Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition was published in July 2012. So I thought that the runelords were built using the Thassilonian specialist archetype. And also I thought that the Thassilonian specialist archetype in First Edition is equal to the runelord archetype in Second Edition. But turns out they are two similar but different archetypes? Perhaps Paizo will publish the Thassilonian specialist archetype for Pathfinder Remaster someday? Or perhaps the two are actually identical, and just like the runelord archetype, the Thassilonian specialist archetype was a very recent addition to the world that rose from modern folks developing something that apes what a traditional runelord is?
Anyway, if you are gamemastering for a group set in pre-Earthfall Thassilon using the First Edition rules or the pre-Remaster Second Edition rules (since the specifics of the Remaster runelord archetype are still unclear to me), and one of the PCs is an apprentice of Runelord Karzoug with aspiration to become the Runelord of Greed someday, would you allow him access to the Thassilonian specialist archetype or the runelord archetype, or would you force him to be a normal transmuter instead?
What Dragonchess Player said is correct. When you spoke of the "Runelord Archetype" I was talking about that, not the Thassilonian specialist rules which were introduced in Rise of the Runelords and then reprinted and updated in Inner Sea Magic for 1st Edition Pathfinder not as an archetype but as a type of specialist wizard. These rules are for anyone who casts magic in that manner, be they contemporary with ancient Thassilon or someone in modern Golarion who picks up the specialization.
It is a very different thing from the 2nd edition Runelord archetype, which uses this specialization as a starting point and builds more stuff on that is inspired by the tradition of the runelords as rulers in a way that, in effect, lets modern Golarion wizards "cosplay" as runelords. Since widespread knowledge of Thassilon and the runelords was obscured until the events of Rise of the Runelords, this archetype could not have been invented by folks before that time.
The two things—the Thassilonian specialiast and the Runelord archetype are NOT the same things.
And since the remaster had to abandon the model of having magic organized into 8 schools, the process of making rules for Thassilonian specialists and Runelord archetypes in the remastered game is one of the MOST complicated things we have to convert between the two... much more complicated than having to figure out how to present Champions in a game that no longer uses alignments.
If you're running a game in pre-Earthfall Thassilon using 1st edition Pathfinder or pre-remastered 2nd Edition Pathfinder, and one of the PCs is an apprentice of runelord Karzoug and wants to become his replacement, that PC would 100% use the Thassilonian specialist rules as presented in Inner Sea Magic... as would pretty much all wizards in that era of Thassilon. Those who specialized in other ways would be regarded as strange eccentrics at best and hostile invaders from Azlant at worst. In a game set in that era, there are no characters with the Runelord archetype because it won't exist for many thousands of years. (By the same definition, there'll be no worshipers of Norgorber in that game, and no androids, and no gunslingers.)
Dangit, I knew Hallowed Lynx' were cool, but I didn't know that they fall under the current state secrets Paizo is keeping in their treasure vault. :pOne of these days I hope we'll have the chance to explore New Thassilon in more details, but until then those details will have to wait.So, I really wonder how Sorshen's kingdom of New Thassilon works, just geographically? Xin-Shalast is kind of inaccessible to normal people, so either the artists and outcasts who immigrate need to be somewhat high level or there are villages/small towns in more accessible areas. Also, economically, I wonder what Sorshen's part of New Thassilon produces to run their economy.
Also, is Sorshen keeping the fuzzy-wuzzy Hallowed Lynx' around, despite them having an evil alignment for some reason? Well, not that it's much of a problem anymore, due to alignment very recently having been removed. But still, they probably have some edict for coughing up furballs containing Shining Children on passerbies, or something like that. Asking the important questions here, because those very powerful fuzzballs are just too cute to not be part of her petting zoo.
They don't. They're in the category of "There's a lot to talk about New Thassilon and the things that live there and more that we haven't had a chance to do much with since, so far, the only thing we've published that's focused on New Thassilon in a significant way is Rusthenge."
Not a secret, but just not yet on our announced production schedule.
Well, that you put "not yet (...) announced production" in that last sentence gives me hope that in two years or so we'll get more New Thassilon content. :)
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The two things—the Thassilonian specialiast and the Runelord archetype are NOT the same things.
1. Sigh. I'm really frustrated because there is no Thassilonian specialist archetype in pre-Remaster Second Edition. Perhaps Paizo will make one for Pathfinder Remaster later?
2. In Thassilon, would non-wizard arcane casters (sorcerers, witches, magi, and summoners) be regarded as strange eccentrics at best and hostile invaders from Azlant at worst, just like those wizards who specialized in other ways (aka non-Thassilonian specialists or universalists) would?
3. Regarding the Eye of Jealousy, you once said that, even if Belimarius did notice the flaw in the advice given by Karzoug, it would have been beyond her power to fix it. You also said that even if Karzoug gave her the real recipe she'd still fail to create a runewell. Then how many levels should one need to create a runewell? Obviously 18 is not enough, because Belimarius, a 18th level wizard, failed. Krune, a 17th level wizard, would also fail, and Zutha too (though I have no idea how many levels does Zutha had) I suppose. Then perhaps 19 would be enough? Dang it. If Belimarius gained only one more level by going on an adventure and killing several powerful monsters, she would surely have discovered Karzoug's trick and fixed it properly, preventing Xin-Edasseril from being trapped outside of time and thus saving her subjects.
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The two things—the Thassilonian specialiast and the Runelord archetype are NOT the same things.1. Sigh. I'm really frustrated because there is no Thassilonian specialist archetype in pre-Remaster Second Edition. Perhaps Paizo will make one for Pathfinder Remaster later?
If you just want to have your wizard be a Thassilonian specialist... again, that's not an archetype and never has been. It's you choosing one of they seven specialization options listed on pages 238–239 of Secrets of Magic. ALL wizards choose a specialization, and if you want to specialize in a Thassilonian school, all the info you need is there.no archetype required or needed. If you want more bang for your buck for this choice, then do the Runelord archetype.
2. In Thassilon, would non-wizard arcane casters (sorcerers, witches, magi, and summoners) be regarded as strange eccentrics at best and hostile invaders from Azlant at worst, just like those wizards who specialized in other ways (aka non-Thassilonian specialists or universalists) would?
They'd be regarded as eccentrics and "lesser" spellcasters by those associated with the government in Thassilon, or as freedom fighters or heroes by those who oppose the government in Thassilon.
3. Regarding the Eye of Jealousy, you once said that, even if Belimarius did notice the flaw in the advice given by Karzoug, it would have been beyond her power to fix it. You also said that even if Karzoug gave her the real recipe she'd still fail to create a runewell. Then how many levels should one need to create a runewell? Obviously 18 is not enough, because Belimarius, a 18th level wizard, failed. Krune, a 17th level wizard, would also fail, and Zutha too (though I have no idea how many levels does Zutha had) I suppose. Then perhaps 19 would be enough? Dang it. If Belimarius gained only one more level by going on an adventure and killing several powerful monsters, she would surely have discovered Karzoug's trick and fixed it properly, preventing Xin-Edasseril from being trapped outside of time and thus saving her subjects.
We've never flat out said in print, but I've always assumed that in order to build a fully functional runewell, you need to be a 20th level wizard at the minimum. Krune and Zutha used other methods to face Earthfall, and Alaznist, Karzoug, Sorshen, and Xanderghul were all powerful enough to build runewells and Eyes, leaving Belimarius as the sole runelord who tried and failed to build a fully functional runewell and an Eye. The whole story point about Belimarius is that she DIDN'T reach enough power because of her own personality flaws. It's a vaguely similar situation facing Razmir, I suppose. As NPCs, the creators of the story get to decide when and how and if they hit 20th level and/or get to do things their peers do. In both of these specific cases, we wanted to tell stories where they don't. In Belimarius's case, had we not done this story option, then all of Return of the Runelords would have happened differently and we wouldn't have a New Thassilon in the way we do today. AKA: ALL of the choices we make for Golarion and the setting are deliberate ones by us at Paizo in order for us to continue telling the setting's story in a way we want to, based on our own desires and interests (which are, in part but not entirely, informed by customer feedback).
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Is there an in-universe justification (plot aside) why Karzoug et al had to create their own pocket demiplanes to hide from Earthfall rather than simply teleporting or plane shifting or gating to somewhere safe and relatively comfortable like Castrovel or the Elemental Plane of Air?
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Is there an in-universe justification (plot aside) why Karzoug et al had to create their own pocket demiplanes to hide from Earthfall rather than simply teleporting or plane shifting or gating to somewhere safe and relatively comfortable like Castrovel or the Elemental Plane of Air?
A mix of stubbornness and overconficence and bravery and underestimation of the situation. Easy to look back on the whole thing and second guess better choices.
Also, a part of it is the fact that the runelords treated the school of divination with disrespect and as a result didn't really have the tools that other powerful spellcasters (like, say, the elves of Kyonin) had to really learn about the danger of the situation and react to it.
SOME of that is explored more in the upcoming "Seven Dooms for Sandpoint" in fact.
One other in-univers justification is that they suspected Thassilon would get wrecked, so they set up panic rooms/apocalypse bunkers, kinda like what you see in the real world today with preppers who hunker down for an upcoming apocalypse, so that they can survive it and come out the other side ready to rebuild.
None of them were really ready for the scope of the devastation in any case, and particularly that no one would be around to wake them up.
Also, partly a sort of groupthink thing where the seven of them kinda narrowmindedly got influenced by the others and didn't want to be the one to leave and, if it all worked out fine, them leaving would basically be handing the keys to their kingdoms over to their competitors.
All sorts of bad decisions, in other words, with minor differences between all seven of them and their reasoning.
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Is there an in-universe justification (plot aside) why Karzoug et al had to create their own pocket demiplanes to hide from Earthfall rather than simply teleporting or plane shifting or gating to somewhere safe and relatively comfortable like Castrovel or the Elemental Plane of Air?A mix of stubbornness and overconficence and bravery and underestimation of the situation. Easy to look back on the whole thing and second guess better choices.
Also, a part of it is the fact that the runelords treated the school of divination with disrespect and as a result didn't really have the tools that other powerful spellcasters (like, say, the elves of Kyonin) had to really learn about the danger of the situation and react to it.
SOME of that is explored more in the upcoming "Seven Dooms for Sandpoint" in fact.
One other in-univers justification is that they suspected Thassilon would get wrecked, so they set up panic rooms/apocalypse bunkers, kinda like what you see in the real world today with preppers who hunker down for an upcoming apocalypse, so that they can survive it and come out the other side ready to rebuild.
None of them were really ready for the scope of the devastation in any case, and particularly that no one would be around to wake them up.
Also, partly a sort of groupthink thing where the seven of them kinda narrowmindedly got influenced by the others and didn't want to be the one to leave and, if it all worked out fine, them leaving would basically be handing the keys to their kingdoms over to their competitors.
All sorts of bad decisions, in other words, with minor differences between all seven of them and their reasoning.
That is excellent.
Did Xin share this scorn towards Divination ?
I think "Thassilon hates divination" is not canon anymore since in Pathfinder Remaster the divination school is completely removed.
Even if divination is gone, it'd be easy to put in something like, "anathema: obtain knowledge of the future by magical means" or whatever for runelords and their modern imitators. You know, get specific with why they thought divination was for losers, for the sake of both mechanics and roleplay.
Speaking of, why was divination the loser school for babies? I'm sure it's written down somewhere, but I'm not super brushed-up on 1e.
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I think "Thassilon hates divination" is not canon anymore since in Pathfinder Remaster the divination school is completely removed.
The setting has not changed.
Even many spells have not changed.
What has indeed changed is the mechanical obligation to put each and every spell in one of 8 categories.
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Even if divination is gone, it'd be easy to put in something like, "anathema: obtain knowledge of the future by magical means" or whatever for runelords and their modern imitators. You know, get specific with why they thought divination was for losers, for the sake of both mechanics and roleplay.
Speaking of, why was divination the loser school for babies? I'm sure it's written down somewhere, but I'm not super brushed-up on 1e.
I feel we might have some info on this unveiled in the seven dooms of Sandpoint AP. It might even be the reason why it is the last OGL AP, so that Paizo didn't need to recreate the Thassilonian Wizard schools right away for the Remaster.
My current pet theory is that there is a hidden runelord of Divination. Either because they saw the other Runelords' fate coming and decided to hide while manipulating everyone from the shadows or because the Divination specialists went into hiding from the persecution of the other Runelords while still keeping the same Thassilonian Specialist system in place for their school, complete with its own Runelord.
Now, I wonder if such a hidden 8th school of Thassilon would follow the virtue / sin paradigm and which it could be.
Previous musings on this from knowledgeable people made me think of the sin of Vainglory.
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I think "Thassilon hates divination" is not canon anymore since in Pathfinder Remaster the divination school is completely removed.
Nothing about the lore we've created for Pathfinder or Golarion changes in the remaster, even though some of it has to be recontextualized. There's still divination magic in the game, it's just not a game-term. It's a plain old word term.
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Re divination, I'm reminded of the stuff around "which subjects get their own department" at a university. Few people are going to argue that XYZ absolutely shouldn't be taught whatsoever, or even that it shouldn't be taught at their specific university, and they might say it's good to have some classes on XYZ; but having a whole DEPARTMENT for it, how dare those [insert subject-specific insult] think that their meaningless specialty, with zero real-world application, actually DESERVES something like that.
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Even if divination is gone, it'd be easy to put in something like, "anathema: obtain knowledge of the future by magical means" or whatever for runelords and their modern imitators. You know, get specific with why they thought divination was for losers, for the sake of both mechanics and roleplay.
Speaking of, why was divination the loser school for babies? I'm sure it's written down somewhere, but I'm not super brushed-up on 1e.
When I created my homebrew specializations for wizards back in the late 80s, I was inspired to do so because 1st Edition AD&D had an illusionist class, and it seemed to me that it'd be cool to have other classes that focused like that. Back in that day, divination spells were few and far between, and many of them did things that were pretty generic or applicable to all wizards, and there just wasn't enough of them to justify a specialization at all. Necromancy was a close second but necromancy has a MUCH stronger theme and while it had not a lot of spells it had some really strong choices. As a result, divination got rolled into an "every wizard can do this" category, that then went on to feed into the runelords lore more officialy. In large part because we wanted them to be seven in number according to the seven deadly sins, and that meant one of those eight schools of magic had to go.
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My current pet theory is that there is a hidden runelord of Divination. Either because they saw the other Runelords' fate coming and decided to hide while manipulating everyone from the shadows or because the Divination specialists went into hiding from the persecution of the other Runelords while still keeping the same Thassilonian Specialist system in place for their school, complete with its own Runelord.
Now, I wonder if such a hidden 8th school of Thassilon would follow the virtue / sin paradigm and which it could be.
Previous musings on this from knowledgeable people made me think of the sin of Vainglory.
You'll probably want to check out "Seven Dooms for Sandpoint" when it's out in a few weeks. Just sayin...
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From the OEM (Offie of Expectation Management): Remember that Seven Dooms for Sandpoint is an OGL adventure (and is the last Adventure Path from us under the OGL before we transition over to the remastered rules), and as such it still uses all the 2nd edition terms and content for schools of magic and all that, so while it does expand upon the story of the runelords and Thassilon (in ways you'll have to either read the adventure or play it to find out), it doesn't do anything about remastering those concepts.
That's for something further down the road than this year.