On Page 327 in the upper right corner I spied today a little box with the title 'monster core dragons'
First off: The dragons there all sound really cool and I am looking forward to them :D
As well as to the new Dragon Sorcerer Bloodline - and that one got me thinking.
We are going to have a lot of new dragons, probably steadily increasing in number. We also have already in the core new dragons of every magic tradition
So where does that leave the sorcerer and the dragon bloodline?
Currently we have the Draconic and the wymrblessed Bloodline, which share focus spells and are differing in their tradition and their spells
So I want to put in a little suggestion while I am babbling on:
We have a sidebar with 'usually prepared spells' for the dragons in the pf2 bestiary
make those sidebars for what the Dragon bloodline grants instead! (or add it to the sidebar)
The dragon bloodline references to the bestiary monster core and says 'you get the breath weapon, magic tradition, resistance and the spells of a dragon of your chosing'
Like that the bloodline would be automatically future proofed and with minimal extra effort (or slightly changed effort rather) get an individual spell list for every type of dragon, which would in turn make the choice of dragon notibly more meaningful
I'd enjoy a pick-a-tradition bloodline in the pick-a-tradition class. It would give arcane fewer exclusive bloodlines though, which is a mild bummer; arcane has relatively little unique to itself.
I am sure we have lots of future potential for arcane bloodlines anyway
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I'd be shocked if draconic bloodline were the same, although it might be.
I wouldn't expect much about the bloodline itself to change (in regards to bloodline skills, granted spells, bloodline spells, or blood magic effect). The Draconic bloodline as it is currently doesn't really conflict with the new dragons (or, at least, the new arcane dragons), and you already needed to pick a specific type of dragon for the bloodline anyway. It's not too much of a stretch to just keep it as it is currently, aside from your tradition matching the tradition of the dragon you chose.
On the other hand, Wyrmblessed is already its own separate bloodline with a different tradition, different granted spells, and a different blood magic effect. What *might* happen is we might see different bloodlines for different dragon traditions? I'd prefer this, in my opinion, because that means the specifics of each bloodline can be tweaked to better fit the specific kinds of dragons they're based on.
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Personally I'd love to see sorcerer pick up sanctification on the divine bloodlines.
I'd rather they get access to Holy/Unholy as appropriate without requiring sanctification. Maybe as part of their blood magic.
And maybe with the caveat that if they ever get sanctification, it will override the previous Holy/Unholy trait.
Holy and Unholy aren't indicators of the source of one's powers. They denote (for mortals) having made a conscious decision to take sides in the Great Battle between Nice and Mean. Sorcerers don't choose their bloodlines, so they can't be holy/unholy by purely by virtue of their bloodlines.
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Holy and Unholy aren't indicators of the source of one's powers. They denote (for mortals) having made a conscious decision to take sides in the Great Battle between Nice and Mean. Sorcerers don't choose their bloodlines, so they can't be holy/unholy by purely by virtue of their bloodlines.
I was not clear. Sorry.
I meant having access to effects with the Holy /Unholy trait. Not being Holy/Unholy themselves, which indeed requires sanctification.
Like a deeply evil but not Unholy person can wield a Holy sword dealing Holy damage IIRC
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Also I think Holy/Unholy are derived from sources of power. And that sanctification gives a mortal / PC access to this energy that comes from the higher planes and that enhances Celestials (Holy) or that comes from the lower planes and that benefits Fiends (Unholy).
No PC will ever access the various energies that come from the middle (Neutral) planes and power the Monitors though. Just because.
Also I think Holy/Unholy are derived from sources of power. And that sanctification gives a mortal / PC access to this energy that comes from the higher planes and that enhances Celestials (Holy) or that comes from the lower planes and that benefits Fiends (Unholy).
I'm not sure what "Holy/Unholy are derived from sources of power" means. But I know that for mortals, choice always comes first. Your blood cannot force you to take sides. Even Pharasma respects free will.
No PC will ever access the various energies that come from the middle (Neutral) planes and power the Monitors though. Just because.
Mere mortals cannot bear the weight of such immense Neutrality!
Holy and Unholy aren't indicators of the source of one's powers. They denote (for mortals) having made a conscious decision to take sides in the Great Battle between Nice and Mean. Sorcerers don't choose their bloodlines, so they can't be holy/unholy by purely by virtue of their bloodlines.
Well the whole source of a divine sorcerers power and alignment was already a problem in the base game that Paizo never addressed.
The scenario being a LG Sorcerer who gets their magic from a CE origin. What alignment was their spells?Hopefully they will address it somehow in the remaster.
Holy and Unholy aren't indicators of the source of one's powers. They denote (for mortals) having made a conscious decision to take sides in the Great Battle between Nice and Mean. Sorcerers don't choose their bloodlines, so they can't be holy/unholy by purely by virtue of their bloodlines.Well the whole source of a divine sorcerers power and alignment was already a problem in the base game that Paizo never addressed.
The scenario being a LG Sorcerer who gets their magic from a CE origin. What alignment was their spells?Hopefully they will address it somehow in the remaster.
At the risk of sounding like an after-school special.... I don't know the alignment of their spells, but I can tell you the alignment of the sorcerer: whatever they choose to be, regardless of their blood. Of course their blood can push them in one direction or another, as with tieflings and aasimar (when we had them), but the final choice is theirs.
I would personally be annoyed if my angelic/demonic sorcerer had to jump though hoops to get sanctified, felt the same way about exemplar's sanctification feat.
IMHO there needs to be a Sanctify ritual, low-level, cheap and easy; Common despite the rules saying there are no Common rituals; and most of all, something you can just stipulate you underwent pregame. Perhaps at a slight cost, so that clerics and champions getting it for free means something. If you get it ingame, GM has the right to say that your displayed morals up to now don't match the side you want and the ritual fails.
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Holy and Unholy aren't indicators of the source of one's powers. They denote (for mortals) having made a conscious decision to take sides in the Great Battle between Nice and Mean. Sorcerers don't choose their bloodlines, so they can't be holy/unholy by purely by virtue of their bloodlines.
You're speaking with an awful lot of confidence about something that's barely defined in player core 1. We don't even have monster core yet, much less player core 2 where the sorcerer will actually be defined. But sorcerers with angelic or demonic bloodlines are not JUST mortals. They have a trace of immortal holy or unholy powers in their blood. They even have feats called "blessed blood" and whatnot. Sorcerers are effectively mutants-- they are exceptions to the normal rules by definition.
That said, I 100% agree with you Sanctification should be available as a ritual. You'd probably need to pick a deity to be sanctified under and then be beholden to their edicts and anethemas.
Eh, there's not a lot of text on it but I think what there is is clear.
But there’s still an endless struggle over the souls of the planes. The new system of divine sanctification (whether holy or unholy) represents a dedication to join that fight.
SANCTIFICATION
Some deities sanctify their clerics and similarly devoted followers. This gives the follower the holy or unholy trait. The holy trait (page 456) indicates a powerful devotion to altruism, helping others, and battling against unholy forces like fiends and undead. The unholy trait (page 462), in turn, shows devotion to victimizing others, inflicting harm, and battling celestial powers.
holy (trait) Effects with the holy trait are tied to powerful magical forces of benevolence and virtue. They often have stronger effects on unholy creatures. Creatures with this trait are strongly devoted to holy causes and often have weakness to unholy. If a creature with weakness to holy uses a holy item or effect, it takes damage from its weakness.
Unholy trait is the mirror image of holy. Both are about what you're committed to, not what you were born.
And Paizo has always made clear that sorcerers of any bloodline, like tieflings and aasimars, still determine their own alignment. Holy/unholy is the remnant of alignment, they're not going to reverse the rules on free will vs predestination. The Nephilim heritage's "You might..." includes
• Lean into or rebel against your perceived extraplanar nature, embracing angelic goodness or twisting demonic rage towards better ends.
And there's nothing being doomed to certain paths no matter what you choose.
I don't see why a sorcerer's trace of planar power should dictate their choices more than with a nephilim who might be the child of a planar power.
Eh, there's not a lot of text on it but I think what there is is clear.
But there’s still an endless struggle over the souls of the planes. The new system of divine sanctification (whether holy or unholy) represents a dedication to join that fight.SANCTIFICATION
Some deities sanctify their clerics and similarly devoted followers. This gives the follower the holy or unholy trait. The holy trait (page 456) indicates a powerful devotion to altruism, helping others, and battling against unholy forces like fiends and undead. The unholy trait (page 462), in turn, shows devotion to victimizing others, inflicting harm, and battling celestial powers.holy (trait) Effects with the holy trait are tied to powerful magical forces of benevolence and virtue. They often have stronger effects on unholy creatures. Creatures with this trait are strongly devoted to holy causes and often have weakness to unholy. If a creature with weakness to holy uses a holy item or effect, it takes damage from its weakness.Unholy trait is the mirror image of holy. Both are about what you're committed to, not what you were born.
And Paizo has always made clear that sorcerers of any bloodline, like tieflings and aasimars, still determine their own alignment. Holy/unholy is the remnant of alignment, they're not going to reverse the rules on free will vs predestination. The Nephilim heritage's "You might..." includes
• Lean into or rebel against your perceived extraplanar nature, embracing angelic goodness or twisting demonic rage towards better ends.And there's nothing being doomed to certain paths no matter what you choose.
I don't see why a sorcerer's trace of planar power should dictate their choices more than with a nephilim who might be the child of a planar power.
While holy and unholy are replacing alignment in a lot of ways, they are not exactly the same. I am not suggesting that sorcerers will be required to pick a side or be altruistic or selfish based on their bloodline. But I don't think angels, undead, or demons get to choose to be holy or unholy, and sorcerer powers are not just derived from those planes-- they are literally descendants of angels, undead, and demons.
Mechanically, the difference is that a CRB diabolic sorcerer using Hellfire Plume dealt evil damage. The equivalent would now be Unholy spirit damage, which luckily will now hurt most opponents. And I think by RAW you can't use an unholy spell unless you are also unholy. At least for the cleric.
Mechanically, the difference is that a CRB diabolic sorcerer using Hellfire Plume dealt evil damage. The equivalent would now be Unholy spirit damage, which luckily will now hurt most opponents. And I think by RAW you can't use an unholy spell unless you are also unholy. At least for the cleric.
If I understand correctly, clerics only need to have their deity permit sanctification to cast those spells. You don't have to be unholy yourself, but your deity does need to sanction it.
Mechanically, the difference is that a CRB diabolic sorcerer using Hellfire Plume dealt evil damage. The equivalent would now be Unholy spirit damage, which luckily will now hurt most opponents. And I think by RAW you can't use an unholy spell unless you are also unholy. At least for the cleric.If I understand correctly, clerics only need to have their deity permit sanctification to cast those spells. You don't have to be unholy yourself, but your deity does need to sanction it.
Fair point. Of course, we aren't talking about clerics, we are talking about sorcerers. Their choice of deity shouldn't be entering into the spells they cast because their spells don't come from the deity. It really shouldn't have mattered pre-remaster but did for Divine Lance/Wrath/Decree/etc by RAW. Now with the sanctified trait we have an elegant way to bypass the issue. And bloodline strikes me as a pretty likely way to determine Sanctification.
Side note: I think the relevant rules are that "casting spells with the unholy trait is ALMOST always anathema to deities who don't allow unholy sanctification." So there's room for exceptions, like a cleric of Pharasma using holy light to smite undead.
Now with the sanctified trait we have an elegant way to bypass the issue.
Yep let us wait and see what is delivered.
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But I don't think angels, undead, or demons get to choose to be holy or unholy, and sorcerer powers are not just derived from those planes-- they are literally descendants of angels, undead, and demons.
The errata for the Remaster makes it pretty clear that angels aren't all Holy and fiends aren't all Unholy (Page 110: In the Fiendsbane Oath feat, replace replace "Add the following tenet to your champion’s code after the other tenets:" with "You gain the following edict:". In addition, replace "good fiend" with "fiend that isn't unholy"), so I can't realistically imagine a world where Paizo decides to tie Holy/Unholy sanctification to bloodline rather than player choice.
But I don't think angels, undead, or demons get to choose to be holy or unholy, and sorcerer powers are not just derived from those planes-- they are literally descendants of angels, undead, and demons.The errata for the Remaster makes it pretty clear that angels aren't all Holy and fiends aren't all Unholy (Page 110: In the Fiendsbane Oath feat, replace replace "Add the following tenet to your champion’s code after the other tenets:" with "You gain the following edict:". In addition, replace "good fiend" with "fiend that isn't unholy"), so I can't realistically imagine a world where Paizo decides to tie Holy/Unholy sanctification to bloodline rather than player choice.
Technically true, but you left our the rest of that sentence: "in the incredibly unlikely event you find a fiend that isn't unholy, you don’t have to banish or kill it.”
And we have, what, one example of a fiend that stopped being evil in canon? And we don't even know if that meant she's no longer unholy yet-- pretty sure that will be revealed around War of the Immortals when she joins the big twleve. So for all intents and purposes you can generally assume fiends are unholy. It's essentially ingrained in their existence. Sorcerers could become unholy regardless of their morality, choices, or preferred sides in the cosmic war.
Edit: and I'll note currently no class but the cleric and champion can choose to become sanctified. The exemplar could in the playtest with a feat but the animist had no option for it. Divine witches can't do it. If sorcerers don't get sanctified by their bloodline I expect they will have a class native option to do it at all.
And we have, what, one example of a fiend that stopped being evil in canon? And we don't even know if that meant she's no longer unholy yet-- pretty sure that will be revealed around War of the Immortals when she joins the big twleve. So for all intents and purposes you can generally assume fiends are unholy.It's happened more than once, definitely. There's Nocticula as the most obvious example, as well as Arueshalae for the quota of "redeemed/redeemable succubi." Outside of that we've got a redeemed devil or two, such as Arathuziel the Chained, who is so non-unholy they've become a form of angel. On top of that we have however many non-evil fiends there are in the settlement of Basrakal, such as the asura who nominally runs the town. I forget her name offhand, but I do recall her alignment being LN rather than the typical LE.
Really hope the cosmology becomes more fluid and dynamic without alignment
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And we have, what, one example of a fiend that stopped being evil in canon? And we don't even know if that meant she's no longer unholy yet-- pretty sure that will be revealed around War of the Immortals when she joins the big twleve. So for all intents and purposes you can generally assume fiends are unholy.It's happened more than once, definitely. There's Nocticula as the most obvious example, as well as Arueshalae for the quota of "redeemed/redeemable succubi." Outside of that we've got a redeemed devil or two, such as Arathuziel the Chained, who is so non-unholy they've become a form of angel. On top of that we have however many non-evil fiends there are in the settlement of Basrakal, such as the asura who nominally runs the town. I forget her name offhand, but I do recall her alignment being LN rather than the typical LE.
If you take the Outsider population of Basrakal (713,400) and assume about 1/3rd of them are fiends (roughly 1/3 celestial, 1/3 monitor, 1/3 fiend), and assume that the fiends have been randomly changed in alignment (probably not perfectly accurate, but just ballpark estimates) and so 3/4 of them are non-evil, you'd get ~178,000 non-evil fiends in the city! :)