| Yvhv_Weide |
Alright, so. I have questions, and I need answers. I'm going to start by posting up the class feat in question.
"A small creature made of elemental matter springs forth from your kinetic gate. This elemental familiar appears to be made of one of your kinetic elements, though it might have unusual or distinguishing aspects. Like other familiars, your elemental familiar can assist you in various tasks and on adventures. You gain an elemental familiar with the trait of one of your kinetic elements. If you have more than one kinetic element, you can change the element you've selected for your familiar to a different one of your kinetic elements each time you make your daily preparations. The familiar uses your Constitution modifier to determine its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers."
So, this is the source of my problem. Some of my friends and I have been at odds with this feat. Does this feat (found on page 20 of Rage of Elements) give a familiar that has only the elemental trait, and therefore, allows for the basic two familiar ability choices;
OR
Does it mean that you get a familiar with the elemental trait, and then is REQUIRED to have the elemental ability and resistance abilities?
OR
Is it neither and the three of us are all wrong?
Some clarification from an official source would be nice, so that we can stop arguing over this feat, and get back to playing the game.
Cordell Kintner
|
The feat grants you a familiar that must always have the Elemental Familiar ability that matches one of your elements. If it's a base familiar, that means it needs the resistance familiar ability. You can also take a Specific familiar with the elemental ability, like a Wisp, assuming you have enough familiar abilities available, which can only be done with a Kineticist with the Enhanced Familiar feat from an Archetype like Familiar Master.
| breithauptclan |
Linking to my previous answer of this question.
Basically, I would go with your choice #1 - a standard familiar with the Elemental trait instead of the Animal trait.
Cordell Kintner
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That's literally what the Elemental familiar ability does...
It says you gain an Elemental Familiar with no other clarification. It could mean the Elemental Familiar feat from the Elementalist archetype with the other changes mentioned later, or it could mean the familiar is required to have the Elemental familiar ability.
If it only changed the trait of the familiar, it would say it did that as the other Elemental Familiar feat does.
| Eoran |
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's literally what the Elemental familiar ability does...
It says you gain an Elemental Familiar with no other clarification.
No, the Elemental Familiar ability is definitely not what the Kineticist Elemental Familiar feat does.
The Elemental Familiar ability is a selectable ability for a familiar to use.
The Elemental Familiar feat gives a character a familiar.
That is very much different.
There is the Elemental Familiar feat, which seems to give a standard familiar with the Elemental trait but no other adjustments.
There is the Elemental Familiar feat which gives a familiar with the elemental trait that follows the rules for a standard familiar, but also gains one additional ability that must be chosen from a specific list of familiar abilities.
There is the Elemental Familiar Ability that any familiar can use.
There is this Elemental Familiar, this Elemental Familiar, this Elemental Familiar, this Elemental Familiar, this Elemental Familiar, and this Elemental Familiar which are all specific familiars.
And I feel that I may still have missed a few meanings of Elemental Familiar.
| Squiggit |
Linking to my previous answer of this question.
Basically, I would go with your choice #1 - a standard familiar with the Elemental trait instead of the Animal trait.
The kineticist feat points you to the elemental familiar ability in its description, so I don't think option 1 is correct.
Cordell Kintner
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Eoran, what I was trying to say is that "Elemental Familiar" is not well defined, which you pointed out so you're basically agreeing with me. All the Kineticist feat says is that you gain an Elemental Familiar.
The actual text in the book says: "You gain an elemental familiar (page 42) with the trait of one of your kinetic elements."
Page 42 leads to the The Elemental Familiar section. This section of the book lists three new familiar abilities, one of which is called "Elemental", and then lists 5 Specific Familiars, which need at least 3 abilities to pick.
So does the feat actually allow you to pick a specific familiar? If so, it should probably say so. If we go with standard familiar rules, where you only have 2 abilities, the only way to get an Elemental familiar is by taking the Elemental ability, which requires the Resistance ability, thus taking up your 2 abilities.
| shroudb |
The way I would probably run it (until clarification) is forcing the elemental ability to be 1/2 of the familiar but bypassing the resistance prerequisite.
Seems a balanced approach compared to a standard familiar: less flexibility because one of the abilities is forced/a little stronger because ignoring 1 prerequisite ability.
| Yvhv_Weide |
Cordell Kintner wrote:That's literally what the Elemental familiar ability does...
It says you gain an Elemental Familiar with no other clarification.No, the Elemental Familiar ability is definitely not what the Kineticist Elemental Familiar feat does.
The Elemental Familiar ability is a selectable ability for a familiar to use.
The Elemental Familiar feat gives a character a familiar.
That is very much different.
There is the Elemental Familiar feat, which seems to give a standard familiar with the Elemental trait but no other adjustments.
There is the Elemental Familiar feat which gives a familiar with the elemental trait that follows the rules for a standard familiar, but also gains one additional ability that must be chosen from a specific list of familiar abilities.
There is the Elemental Familiar Ability that any familiar can use.
There is this Elemental Familiar, this Elemental Familiar, this Elemental Familiar, this Elemental Familiar, this Elemental Familiar, and this Elemental Familiar which are all specific familiars.
And I feel that I may still have missed a few meanings of Elemental Familiar.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I BROUGHT UP!! There is TOO MUCH going on with elemental familiar, as a phrase in this game.
| Yvhv_Weide |
Eoran, what I was trying to say is that "Elemental Familiar" is not well defined, which you pointed out so you're basically agreeing with me. All the Kineticist feat says is that you gain an Elemental Familiar.
The actual text in the book says: "You gain an elemental familiar (page 42) with the trait of one of your kinetic elements."
Page 42 leads to the The Elemental Familiar section. This section of the book lists three new familiar abilities, one of which is called "Elemental", and then lists 5 Specific Familiars, which need at least 3 abilities to pick.
So does the feat actually allow you to pick a specific familiar? If so, it should probably say so. If we go with standard familiar rules, where you only have 2 abilities, the only way to get an Elemental familiar is by taking the Elemental ability, which requires the Resistance ability, thus taking up your 2 abilities.
THIS. ALL OF THIS.PLEASE PAIZO, GRACE US WITH ANSWERS!!
| eboats |
Alright, so. I have questions, and I need answers. I'm going to start by posting up the class feat in question.
"A small creature made of elemental matter springs forth from your kinetic gate. This elemental familiar appears to be made of one of your kinetic elements, though it might have unusual or distinguishing aspects. Like other familiars, your elemental familiar can assist you in various tasks and on adventures. You gain an elemental familiar with the trait of one of your kinetic elements. If you have more than one kinetic element, you can change the element you've selected for your familiar to a different one of your kinetic elements each time you make your daily preparations. The familiar uses your Constitution modifier to determine its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers."
So, this is the source of my problem. Some of my friends and I have been at odds with this feat. Does this feat (found on page 20 of Rage of Elements) give a familiar that has only the elemental trait, and therefore, allows for the basic two familiar ability choices;
OR
Does it mean that you get a familiar with the elemental trait, and then is REQUIRED to have the elemental ability and resistance abilities?
OR
Is it neither and the three of us are all wrong?
Some clarification from an official source would be nice, so that we can stop arguing over this feat, and get back to playing the game.
Elemental Familiar (Kineticist) says you gain an elemental familiar with the trait of one of your kinetic elements. It says nothing about required abilities. You would pick the 2 abilities as normal if you gained a familiar from this feat.
| YuriP |
The feat is poorly written.
The book version points to specific elemental familiars in page 42 and that's covered by specific familiar rules set. This rule set adds an exception for this cases when you don't have enough familiar abilities to get it:
...
Any character can gain a specific familiar so long as they already have a familiar with at least the required number of abilities listed in the specific familiar's stat block. Such a familiar usually replaces an existing familiar, though in some circumstances (such as for a witch) the familiar may evolve or reveal its true form. In any case, this transition from a normal familiar to a specific familiar requires no downtime and has no cost. Once you've selected a specific familiar, you can't change it without losing your familiar—this uses the same rules as if your familiar had died.
...
The problem is that Kineticists don't get Enhanced Familiar so without an archetype it will never be able to upgrade it anyone of the specific familiars of RoE.
About trait I think you just switch the familiar trait from animal to elemental like happens with other cases like Baba Yaga's witches or Leshy Familiar without any problem.
| Tunu40 |
The page has both familiar abilities and specific familiars.
It’s clearly talking about traits and the rule for the traits effects are in the Elemental familiar ability on that page.
Otherwise, you’d be allowed to take Elemental Scamp which a normal class requires Enhanced + Improved Familiar which is a ridiculous amount for one feat. If it’s too good to be true, it’s probably not.
| YuriP |
But the feat specific says "You gain an elemental familiar (page 42) with the trait of one of your kinetic elements." It isn't "take some familiar with some abilities from page 42". It's specifies that's an elemental familiar and points the page of RoE and this page (and the rest of the its chapter) has a list os specific elemental familiars.
You cannot take a full Elemental Scamp because as I pointed "in some circumstances (such as for a witch) the familiar may evolve or reveal its true form". You specific familiar will have just 2 abilities as normal and when you get enough ability points it transforms in "its true form".
| Ravingdork |
I'm of the mind that you get elemental familiar ability (thereby making it an elemental), and then can still choose two familiar abilities on top of that.
This makes the feat worth taking, but keeps the scope very narrow.
| Squiggit |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's specifies that's an elemental familiar and points the page of RoE and this page (and the rest of the its chapter) has a list os specific elemental familiars.
It's also the page with the elemental familiar ability, shouldn't omit that.
I'm of the mind that you get elemental familiar ability (thereby making it an elemental), and then can still choose two familiar abilities on top of that.
This makes the feat worth taking, but keeps the scope very narrow.
This is how I read the ability as written, but it's worth pointing out the last time Paizo published a familiar that had a specific ability they were later errata'd to be required to take it rather than gaining it for free.
So decent chance RoE errata will do something similar.