Question re: Witch Mutliclass Archtype


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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I see that Witch is getting an update in like October, but in the mean time, did we EVER get a definitive answer about how the Witch MC Archtype Familiar worked?

I remember there being a LOT of back and forth about whether or not the familiar got the bonus witch familiar abilities.

Side 1 (no) said : The Archtype familiar gets ONE (1) familiar ability by default, and if you take Basic Witchcraft it then has TWO (2) and never gains more by default.

Side 2 (yes) said : The Archtype Familiar is a WITCH familiar and therefore gets TWO (2) Familiar abilities to start out. 2(default) - 1 (Dedication reduction) + 1 (Witch bonus). And that, if you take Basic Witchcraft it then goes up to 3. Then there was FURTHER disagreement about whether it got the additional extras at 6, 12, and 18...

So, has this ever ACTUALLY been clarified?


From my research side 1

Liberty's Edge

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Yup, it got clarified, the answer is that it is a weaker "default" Familiar but it is usable as a Spellbook so option #1.

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Themetricsystem wrote:
Yup, it got clarified, the answer is that it is a weaker "default" Familiar but it is usable as a Spellbook so option #1.

Thank you, this solidifies that I am NOT using the witch archetype then.

Don't like the answer, but at least we finally got a definitive one.


TiwazBlackhand wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Yup, it got clarified, the answer is that it is a weaker "default" Familiar but it is usable as a Spellbook so option #1.

Thank you, this solidifies that I am NOT using the witch archetype then.

Don't like the answer, but at least we finally got a definitive one.

Yeah soon as I hears that it pretty much closed off that archetype for me


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It's still a very good archetype. You get access to cantrips of any type, a familiar and access to life boost. It's my favorite spell casting archetype


nicholas storm wrote:
It's still a very good archetype. You get access to cantrips of any type, a familiar and access to life boost. It's my favorite spell casting archetype

and if your familiar dies you lose access to all of your spells and focus powers until you get 5 days of downtime....

you also permanently lose any additional spells you've added to your collection.

i'm pretty sure the dev that answered that didn't really think of that, but oh well, he said it in an official capacity so what's done is done.


I view pf2e as a system that doesn't care about raw. Balance wise the witch dedication shouldn't get a witch familiar in terms of abilities. However it's within a gm to give it a witch familiar in terms of reviving every day.

If you have perceived issues, work out a reasonable solution with your gm


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Two familiar abilities are worth a feat. Two cantrips are worth a feat. One familiar ability and one cantrip is pretty reasonable. We're getting a republishing of the multiclass archetype in November, and I wouldn't mind official next-day familiar resurrection.


shroudb wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:
It's still a very good archetype. You get access to cantrips of any type, a familiar and access to life boost. It's my favorite spell casting archetype

and if your familiar dies you lose access to all of your spells and focus powers until you get 5 days of downtime....

you also permanently lose any additional spells you've added to your collection.

i'm pretty sure the dev that answered that didn't really think of that, but oh well, he said it in an official capacity so what's done is done.

Depends on what you think an 'official capacity' is. There is a place for official rules changes and clarifications from the game developers. It isn't YouTube.

And yeah, if you watch that video and think that having one familiar ability initially and only increasing to two abilities instead of having the full Witch class's familiar ability progression is the problem with the ruling, then you aren't paying attention.


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Fortunately, from the hints that we have gotten about the Witch class Remaster Rework the idea that a Witch Archetype familiar is in all respects a 'normal' familiar will be a lot harder to justify.


shroudb wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:
It's still a very good archetype. You get access to cantrips of any type, a familiar and access to life boost. It's my favorite spell casting archetype

and if your familiar dies you lose access to all of your spells and focus powers until you get 5 days of downtime....

you also permanently lose any additional spells you've added to your collection.

i'm pretty sure the dev that answered that didn't really think of that, but oh well, he said it in an official capacity so what's done is done.

This isn't clear in archetype but my understand is that you get a witch's familiar that have the same respawn of the witch class familiar:

Quote:
If your familiar dies, your patron replaces it during your next daily preparations. The new familiar might be a duplicate or reincarnation of your former familiar or a new entity altogether, but it knows the same spells your former familiar knew regardless. Your familiar's death doesn't affect any spells you have already prepared.


YuriP wrote:
This isn't clear in archetype but my understand is that you get a witch's familiar that have the same respawn of the witch class familiar

Not according to Logan Bonner in the video linked above.

The Witch archetype familiar is a completely normal familiar and you shouldn't have to look at the Witch rules at all in order to know how the familiar works. It will have the normal number of abilities - reduced by one initially because of the penalty listed in the Witch archetype dedication. If it dies, you have to use the normal familiar restoration rules in order to have it returned to you. You can't learn new spells by having it consume a scroll of any variety because normal familiars don't do that. And when it is restored, it won't have stored or remembered any of your previously known spells - again, because normal familiars don't do that.

It is already pretty hard to justify that a Witch archetype familiar should be a 'normal' familiar in all respects.


Wow, that makes life for a character with the witch archetype pretty complicated for someone who picks up the archetype. Because you basically have the archetype disabled for a week, most likely because you got unlucky and some AoE killed your familiar.

Personally in my homebrew games, and even GMing at a PFS table I wouldn't rule it this way, it would simply be too severe a penalty for players with this archetype, especially compared to other spellcasting archetypes. Additionally this practically forces the player to keep the familiar as far away from the battlefield as possible, or to use spells like Pet Cache, Phase Familiar or items with the Familiar Satchel restricting it from take any abilities that needs familiar actions.


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Which is why I put that ruling into the category of Too Bad to be True.

The only reason that the rest of the community doesn't do the same is because it was a statement from a game developer. If any of the rest of us were the one that gave that ruling, we would be laughed to scorn.


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Don't get me wrong, in my own games I already run it like a witch familiar with only difference the number of abilities.

I was just pointing out how a hasty ruling on YouTube can destroy a whole archetype.

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