'Conscious Mind' says "You automatically add the spells listed here to your spell repertoire, in addition to those you gain through psychic spellcasting. At 1st level, you gain a 1st-level spell, and you learn the other spells on the list as soon as you gain the ability to cast psychic spells of that level, learning the 2nd-level spell at 3rd level, the 3rd-level spell at 5th level, and so on."
'Swapping Spells in Your Repertoire' says "As you gain new spells in your repertoire, you might want to replace some of the spells you previously learned. Each time you gain a level and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level. This spell can be a cantrip. You can also swap out spells by retraining during downtime."
I can't decide if I'm allowed to swap or not, the discord seems to say that this is an oversight and it should not be allowed.
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It is debatable.
It does seem really strange that Sorcerer is the only spontaneous caster with granted spells that isn't able to swap out those spells from their repertoire. But Bard Muse gives a granted 1st level spell, Oracle Mystery gives a granted Cantrip, and Psychic Conscious Mind gives a granted Cantrip and a granted spell of each level. None of those other classes say anything about not being able to swap out those granted spells from your repertoire.
I think no. It's the equivalent of sorcerer bloodlines providing certain spells. I don't believe they can be retrained.
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I think no. It's the equivalent of sorcerer bloodlines providing certain spells. I don't believe they can be retrained.
I would agree with that - it seems like an oversight in the rules. Since it is a class feature that is giving you a spell in your repertoire rather than the normal player-chosen spell selection, then the only way to change out what spell the class feature is putting in repertoire is by retraining the class feature - not retraining of the player-chosen spells in repertoire.
It is similar to taking two dedication feats that give Basic Alchemy Benefits - which in turn gives you the Alchemical Crafting feat twice. You can't use the standard Retraining rules to retrain one of your redundant Alchemical Crafting bonus skill feats into a different skill feat.
But that is something that really should be stated in the general rules for repertoire - not extrapolated from having the rules specifically for Sorcerer repertoire applied to all other classes too.
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I would agree with that - it seems like an oversight in the rules. Since it is a class feature that is giving you a spell in your repertoire rather than the normal player-chosen spell selection, then the only way to change out what spell the class feature is putting in repertoire is by retraining the class feature - not retraining of the player-chosen spells in repertoire.This is correct regarding retraining but it is arguably less true for the passive ability to freely swap spells that is a Psychic class feature (see: "Swapping Spells In Your Repertoire"), which has more generous language of
"you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level"
with no caveats.
I think no. It's the equivalent of sorcerer bloodlines providing certain spells. I don't believe they can be retrained.
Sorcerers can't swap bloodline spells because their class feature specifically says they can't. Psychics have no such line.
It may or may not be an oversight, but arguing that one class should work in a certain way purely because another, completely different class, happens to is a weak argument.
We wouldn't, for instance, argue that Psychics having 2 spell slots is an oversight or typo just because Sorcerers have 4.
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Retraining wouldn't work, because of this clause in the retraining rules:
When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option.
Swapping spells in repertoire while leveling up doesn't list this restriction. However, it talks about it as if swapping like that is a lot like retraining, just with no downtime needed.
I also really don't think it's "obviously allowed" as Errenor claims. It would only be obvious if it actually explicitly said that you could change out previously-fixed spells for free choice spells.
This seems like a classic case of ambiguous rules reading: "Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is."
If some classes were limited to a strict menu, and other classes had to start with the strict menu but were then allowed to send their plates back for something else, that's so weird that it needs to be explicitly called out, not indirectly inferred by the absence of reminder text.
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If some classes were limited to a strict menu, and other classes had to start with the strict menu but were then allowed to send their plates back for something else, that's so weird that it needs to be explicitly called out, not indirectly inferred by the absence of reminder text.
If the sorcerer didn't exist would you still feel that way? What if the psychic had come first? Do you scruitinize other class features from other classes in a similar way?
Again I'm not saying you're wrong. I think there's a decent chance you're ultimately right, even. But I also think it's dangerous to try to intuit the mechanics of a class based on an entirely different class having its own rules.
The rulebook would be very long if we applied this supposition that a lack of rule need to be called out explicitly broadly to the game, PF2 largely works on the fact that we don't think this way.
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If some classes were limited to a strict menu, and other classes had to start with the strict menu but were then allowed to send their plates back for something else, that's so weird that it needs to be explicitly called out, not indirectly inferred by the absence of reminder text.If the sorcerer didn't exist would you still feel that way? What if the psychic had come first? Do you scruitinize other class features from other classes in a similar way?
Again I'm not saying you're wrong. I think there's a decent chance you're ultimately right, even. But I also think it's dangerous to try to intuit the mechanics of a class based on an entirely different class having its own rules.
The rulebook would be very long if we applied this supposition that a lack of rule need to be called out explicitly broadly to the game, PF2 largely works on the fact that we don't think this way.
Yes, I'd still feel that way.
If a class feature says "you get specifically X spell" or "you get specifically Y feat", then that's not a free choice, it's specifically that spell or feat.
When retraining, you're not allowed to make new choices that you wouldn't have been able to make if you'd been building the character from scratch. Retraining is essentially an alternate, but possible, history.
Swapping spells from repertoire is explained a bit tersely, so you could make the argument "it doesn't say you can't". But it'd be quite out of tune with the normal game design, and it also doesn't explicitly say that you can. Surprising things need explicit confirmation.
If psychic conscious mind spells were intended to be an exception to the general principle that you can't trade fixed-menu things for free choice things, then it really needs to say so explicitly.
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I think no. It's the equivalent of sorcerer bloodlines providing certain spells. I don't believe they can be retrained.Sorcerers can't swap bloodline spells because their class feature specifically says they can't. Psychics have no such line.
It may or may not be an oversight, but arguing that one class should work in a certain way purely because another, completely different class, happens to is a weak argument.
We wouldn't, for instance, argue that Psychics having 2 spell slots is an oversight or typo just because Sorcerers have 4.
I realize it's not a strong argument from a rules perspective, but I'm 95% sure that it's still the correct answer. While Sorcerer explicitly states the restriction, I believe spells provided by things like your Conscious Mind or Witch Patron are fixed things that cannot be changed, at least not without changing the base choice of Bloodline, Patron, or Conscious Mind (if those things are even able to be changed, I'm not sure they can be).
Errenor is correct in the since that as written it's allowed. Only the restriction in the Sorcerer feature explicitly prevents it. However, I believe this to be an oversight and am treating it as such.
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Why give extra specific spells if they can be easily swapped within a few levels ?
Far simpler to just give extra free spells.
That.
Why even bother to list out a specific spell added to Repertoire if it can just be swapped out?
Bard Enigma Muse adds True Strike to Repertoire. The point being that the Bard always has True Strike in their Repertoire. If they can swap that out at level 3 when they gain 2nd level spells, what was the point of specifically listing True Strike? Only to limit the options for level 1 and level 2 play? That just seems counter-intuitive.
Also, if anyone wants to get completely literal of the wording, Swapping out spells in Repertoire only lets you swap out the spells that you 'learned'. Since you didn't learn the spells granted from your class features - they are simply 'added' - then they aren't valid for swapping.
The absence of reminder text does not indicate the absence of a rule.
I agree that because you didn’t learn granted spells, they were granted, you may not swap them out. In addition, allowing swaps would be silly.
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I think no. It's the equivalent of sorcerer bloodlines providing certain spells. I don't believe they can be retrained.I would agree with that - it seems like an oversight in the rules. Since it is a class feature that is giving you a spell in your repertoire rather than the normal player-chosen spell selection, then the only way to change out what spell the class feature is putting in repertoire is by retraining the class feature - not retraining of the player-chosen spells in repertoire.
It is similar to taking two dedication feats that give Basic Alchemy Benefits - which in turn gives you the Alchemical Crafting feat twice. You can't use the standard Retraining rules to retrain one of your redundant Alchemical Crafting bonus skill feats into a different skill feat.
But that is something that really should be stated in the general rules for repertoire - not extrapolated from having the rules specifically for Sorcerer repertoire applied to all other classes too.
I don't see it as an issue. The Sorcerers Bloodline adds spell into their repertoire but includes them in the normal 1:1 cap for spells known versus spell slots. So they can't swap those out.
Pretty much every other ability in the game that adds spells into your repertoire is just giving you more spells and doesn't take up a spot. So it doesn't need to be replaceable as it is just extra.
There is no problem here.
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The absence of reminder text does not indicate the absence of a rule.
IMO, absence of a rule for something that is similar to something that does have a rule, doesn't indicate a rule for the first thing. All the absence of a rule means is that here is no rule there: full stop.
The absence of reminder text does not indicate the absence of a rule.IMO, absence of a rule for something that is similar to something that does have a rule, doesn't indicate a rule for the first thing. All the absence of a rule means is that here is no rule there: full stop.
Agreed. There is no rule allowing you swap out granted spells.
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Retraining wouldn't work, because of this clause in the retraining rules:
When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option.
This is a misleading quote by Ascalaphus. The full paragraph is as follows:
When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option. For instance, you can’t exchange a 2nd-level skill feat for a 4th-level one, or for one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat. If you don’t remember whether you met the prerequisites at the time, ask your GM to make the call. If you cease to meet the prerequisites for an ability due to retraining, you can’t use that ability. You might need to retrain several abilities in sequence in order to get all the abilities you want.
The better quote would be from a couple paragraphs earlier..
Retraining offers a way to alter some of your character choices, which is helpful when you want to take your character in a new direction or change decisions that didn’t meet your expectations. You can retrain feats, skills, and some selectable class features. You can’t retrain your ancestry, heritage, background, class, or ability scores. You can’t perform other downtime activities while retraining.
It is pretty clear that retraining is intended to be for choices made. Granted spells individually are not choices made. They are part of the chosen conscious mind. You want different granted spells? The choice you can change would be a different conscious mind.
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That said, the spells granted by your conscious mind are simply added to your repertoire. Once a part of your repertoire, they are like every other spell in your repertoire. As such they can be swapped via the "swapping spells in your repertoire".
So, you can swap the granted spells via the class ability, but not retraining. (RAW)
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That said, the spells granted by your conscious mind are simply added to your repertoire. Once a part of your repertoire, they are like every other spell in your repertoire. As such they can be swapped via the "swapping spells in your repertoire".
So, you can swap the granted spells via the class ability, but not retraining. (RAW)
I don't read it like that at all.
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Retraining wouldn't work, because of this clause in the retraining rules:
When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option.This is a misleading quote by Ascalaphus. The full paragraph is as follows:
When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option. For instance, you can’t exchange a 2nd-level skill feat for a 4th-level one, or for one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat. If you don’t remember whether you met the prerequisites at the time, ask your GM to make the call. If you cease to meet the prerequisites for an ability due to retraining, you can’t use that ability. You might need to retrain several abilities in sequence in order to get all the abilities you want.The better quote would be from a couple paragraphs earlier..
Retraining offers a way to alter some of your character choices, which is helpful when you want to take your character in a new direction or change decisions that didn’t meet your expectations. You can retrain feats, skills, and some selectable class features. You can’t retrain your ancestry, heritage, background, class, or ability scores. You can’t perform other downtime activities while retraining.It is pretty clear that retraining is intended to be for choices made. Granted spells individually are not choices made. They are part of the chosen conscious mind. You want different granted spells? The choice you can change would be a different conscious mind.
I agree with your conclusions: the choice you made was the conscious mind, and then the spells that come with it are decided automatically, so they can't be changed automatically. You can retrain your choice of conscious mind, but not loose spells granted by it.
(I don't really see what's misleading about what I posted.)
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One problem I think here is that the retraining rules aren't really important here. It's pretty clear you can't retrain conscious mind spells, because the retraining rules already cover it.
The issue comes from the psychic class feature that allows them to freely swap spells out of their repertoire, with no listed caveats (unlike the Sorcerer, who is expressly forbidden from swapping out bloodline spells).
So arguing over retraining is, imo, kind of a tangent at this point and just leads to more confusion because it's an entirely separate mechanic.
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Agreed. There is no rule allowing you swap out granted spells.The absence of reminder text does not indicate the absence of a rule.IMO, absence of a rule for something that is similar to something that does have a rule, doesn't indicate a rule for the first thing. All the absence of a rule means is that here is no rule there: full stop.
for the sorcerer, yes. There is no such rule for psychic or granted spells in general though. You have to assume an unwritten rule about granted spells that [obviously] doesn't exist anywhere in the rules but is SO obvious that it'd be an expected conclusion: I don't see that myself as there isn't a universal rule for "Swapping Spells in Your Repertoire" but instead a section about it specific to each class. If it was meant to work 1 and only 1 way for Repertoires, it could easily just be printed once in the magic/spells section.
I mean after all, I don't recall bards having any mention of not being able to swap out their muse granted spell either. Or oracles and their Granted Cantrip. With 4 classes, all getting granted spells and using Repertoires, but only 1 stating you can't swap out those granted, why shouldn't I assume sorcerer is the exception instead of bard, oracle and psychic having some unwritten super-secret rule?
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I don't read it like that at all.That said, the spells granted by your conscious mind are simply added to your repertoire. Once a part of your repertoire, they are like every other spell in your repertoire. As such they can be swapped via the "swapping spells in your repertoire".
So, you can swap the granted spells via the class ability, but not retraining. (RAW)
The collection of spells you can cast is called your spell repertoire...Your choice of conscious mind also grants you additional spells in your repertoire, starting with an additional 1st-level spell and two cantrips listed in your conscious mind, which you cast as psi cantrips (see below)...You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level. Each time you get a spell slot (see Table 2), you add a spell to your spell repertoire of the same level...Your conscious mind also adds additional spells to your repertoire as you gain spells of higher levels...
As you gain new spells in your repertoire, you might want to replace some of the spells you previously learned. Each time you gain a level and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level. This spell can be a cantrip. You can also swap out spells by retraining during downtime.
I'm not saying that it makes 100% sense that you can just switch out granted spells. However, to be fair, Psychics have a very limited number of spells known at each level. So, it ranges very far from "TGTBT".
For me, it is RAW and it hardly breaks the game in any way. Therefore it falls into my category of 'why not?'
Because you still have an ability that says this spell is in your repertoire - so you are double dipping. TGTBT.
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Because you still have an ability that says this spell is in your repertoire - so you are double dipping. TGTBT.
I says it adds the spell: This is NO different than spells from you leveling. "This conscious outward expression adds several additional spells to your spell repertoire and grants you three psi cantrips" vs "You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level." Why is one "add" problematic and the other not? Neither says it's a permanent and locked addition, just that a that level it's added.
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Because you still have an ability that says this spell is in your repertoire - so you are double dipping. TGTBT.I says it adds the spell: This is NO different than spells from you leveling. "This conscious outward expression adds several additional spells to your spell repertoire and grants you three psi cantrips" vs "You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level." Why is one "add" problematic and the other not? Neither says it's a permanent and locked addition, just that a that level it's added.
It says in two places under psychic that these spells are additional and therefore not normal.
If you retrain them, you still have an ability saying you have this spell. You can't retrain that class feature. Therefore you can't retrain that spell. It only half works, therefore it just doesn't work.
The normal spell slots that you can train are open spell slots they don't have anything specific in them. They are specific fungible slots.
No the rules don't say this explicitly but they should.
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If you could retrain them after a few levels what would be the point in even specifying that you had to have certain spells?
I'm certain the interpretation that the spells granted by Bloodline/Conscious Mind, Patron, etc can be retrained/replaced is WRONG, but the rules around this aren't written well so it allows for people to argue that it's not the case.
That said, the spells granted by your conscious mind are simply added to your repertoire. Once a part of your repertoire, they are like every other spell in your repertoire. As such they can be swapped via the "swapping spells in your repertoire".
So, you can swap the granted spells via the class ability, but not retraining. (RAW)
Don't confuse 'spells learned' with 'spells in Repertoire'.
Your Repertoire is the set of spells that you can actively cast. There is a specific amount of them. You can also learn additional spells with the Learn a Spell activity - and there is no stated limit to how many spells you can have cluttering up some dusty corner of your mind. But those spells that are only learned and not actively in Repertoire are not able to be cast.
But when Conscious Mind says that you put a spell in Repertoire, it means exactly that. It is in your collection of spells available to be cast.
If the intent was to have the spell learned automatically and therefore be valid to be put in Repertoire, then it would have said that instead.
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Don't confuse 'spells learned' with 'spells in Repertoire'.
'Learned' in this case is an irrelevant word. I say this because, nowhere else does it make a distinction of 'learned' spells in the spell repertoire section. Those spells you add to your repertoire because you gained another spell slot, are they 'learned'? If so, how do you conclude that?
If you could retrain them after a few levels what would be the point in even specifying that you had to have certain spells?
Agreed
No the rules don't say this explicitly but they should.
This is a RAI argument, which is not the argument I'm making. It also seems to be an admission that the RAW is different than intended.
Because you still have an ability that says this spell is in your repertoire...
Not necessarily. The ability states that at level X, Y spell was added to your repertoire.
If you retrain your Conscious mind, what happens to the spells it grants ?
I'd probably argue that you can't retrain a conscious mind in the same way you can't retrain a bloodline, but that is an aside. If you retrain your conscious mind and have swapped one or more of the granted spells, then each spell each was swapped to change to the spells granted by the new conscious mind. After which they can be swapped again.
Look, again, I'm only saying that RAW you can swap.
It also seems to be an admission that the RAW is different than intended.
I thought that was pretty clear from the beginning.
Yes, RAW only the Sorcerer is not allowed to switch out their spell slot spells from their Repertoire that was placed there by their Bloodline choice.
But it is very hard to justify that as being intended. Or balanced.
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No the rules don't say this explicitly but they should.This is a RAI argument, which is not the argument I'm making. It also seems to be an admission that the RAW is different than intended.
Because you still have an ability that says this spell is in your repertoire...Not necessarily. The ability states that at level X, Y spell was added to your repertoire.
It calls these spells out as additional. You can't swap the ability that says you have these spells. It uses slightly different terminology. But no it is not enough to technically lock it down.
So I am going to concede that this is a RAW loop hole.It is a pretty obvious exploit in my opinion. I'm always going to say no to swapping these spells.
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RE: The OP's question: "No."
Expanding on that, I would say this is pretty fairly obvious, these are part of a package and are bundled with it much the same way that certain Druid Domains provide X or Y Feat, you cannot retrain the Feat it offers without swapping the Domain itself somehow. I can't really see through to any clarity in an argument that asserts this is/should be possible but I would chime in to say that I think the rules could be more clear on this given that for some reason they went out of the way to waste wordcount for the Sorcerer Bloodline to spell it out.
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If you retrain your Conscious mind, what happens to the spells it grants ?I'd probably argue that you can't retrain a conscious mind in the same way you can't retrain a bloodline, but that is an aside. If you retrain your conscious mind and have swapped one or more of the granted spells, then each spell each was swapped to change to the spells granted by the new conscious mind. After which they can be swapped again.Yes, the solution is actually that easy. And the spells which weren't swapped get simply retrained to new conscious mind's too. Even in an improbable case the player forgot which spells they had swapped, they could choose one spell to get retrained at each rank. Maybe a bit too generous, but not game-breaking either.
So, that isn't really a problem.
So, the Retraining would allow for another swap (from swapped-in spells to those that originally came with the Conscious mind that is being retrained), even though that is not RAW ?
The RAW here is incomplete. The RAI is very likely what we have for the Sorcerer.