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I hope we can leave behind questions about weapon property runes triggering golem antimagic, and the whole "is targeting enough or do i have to hit with a ray of frost to trigger" etc.
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Me too, but we might just lose golems as we know them instead. Their current incarnation seems very rooted in D&D.
Maybe we will get a new mostly magic immune thing with better defined mechanics.
Yeah, Golem Antimagic is a hot mess.
Additional questions:
Which damage value do we use since both values are 'in the parenthetical'?
Does non-magical persistent damage trigger Golem Antimagic, or do they just take the persistent damage normally? Does that change if the persistent damage was magical to begin with but stopped being magical because the spell that created it ended?
And of course there is the Clay Golem's explicit counteract level override.
little ot: Am I the only one thinking that we are probably raising our expectations too high for what concerns this remastered?
The remaster itself wouldn't have things like this. The remaster is where all the stuff is being shifted around in the books.
There is also the OGL removal. Things like replacing alignment and a bunch of the creatures in the bestiary. Which will impact some of the other classes too.
But the changes are going to include a bunch of errata. Things like changes to the Witch class. And hopefully things like this. Fixing Golem Antimagic and cleaning up the wording of Undead and Negative Healing so that we know how Harm and Heal are supposed to work with it now that we have options of PCs with both of those traits.
Me too, but we might just lose golems as we know them instead. Their current incarnation seems very rooted in D&D.
Maybe we will get a new mostly magic immune thing with better defined mechanics.
I don't think that "golem" is a specific enough term for the OGL that they can claim copyrights over it, especially since I remember some non-related fictional works using this same term, even if for something similar.
Heck, the mascot for Paizo is labeled as a golem, if memory serves. If this is really OGL specific, then Paizo better change their mascot (or retcon what he actually is), otherwise the entire company logo will have to be changed or "retconned" to be compatible with the ORC license and avoid the OGL copyright entirely.
**EDIT**
Otherwise, I do agree that the Antimagic effects for Golems could use some cleaning up, since again, it's not specified if weapon runes count for triggering or not, or if they do, if they do some "reduced" effect for it (which, IMO, they should, since exploiting Golem effects should be caster-specific, not martial-specific; they can already beat them down good enough).
It is worth cleaning up. I can work it out to my satisfaction but it is complex.
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Me too, but we might just lose golems as we know them instead. Their current incarnation seems very rooted in D&D.
Maybe we will get a new mostly magic immune thing with better defined mechanics.
nah, golems are a trope of a very wide variety of fantasy things, from novels, to cartoons, to everything in-between.
animated/crafted mass given a rough humanoid form usually made of stone or metal that are highly resistant to magic and usually made from something very tough.
no way ogl can cover them.
I would be surprised to see them changed, but note that Captain Morgan said 'their current incarnation' specifically here.
Golems in general are very conceptually broad, show up everywhere, and are rooted in mythology. The specific, quirky brand of vague magic immunity that this thread is talking about however is very much a D&Dism.
Me too, but we might just lose golems as we know them instead. Their current incarnation seems very rooted in D&D.
Maybe we will get a new mostly magic immune thing with better defined mechanics.
nah, golems are a trope of a very wide variety of fantasy things, from novels, to cartoons, to everything in-between.
animated/crafted mass given a rough humanoid form usually made of stone or metal that are highly resistant to magic and usually made from something very tough.
no way ogl can cover them.
I would be surprised to see them changed, but note that Captain Morgan said 'their current incarnation' specifically here.
Golems in general are very conceptually broad, show up everywhere, and are rooted in mythology. The specific, quirky brand of vague magic immunity that this thread is talking about however is very much a D&Dism.
Exactly. If having dragons tied to colors needs to change, then I feel trepidation over the much more specific brand of golem we know and love. (Well, I love, at least.)
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golem antimagic is a mistake
just replace them all with 3 status save against spell
Hard disagree.
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It should be similar to the Magic Immunity of Will-o’-Wisps. Immune to spells, except with specific traits.
They should also need to make a save/get hit by the spell to see if they're affected. Basic saves against spells with saves, or normal/crit damage for spells with attack rolls, all with the listed amount of damage.
For example, a Golem weak to Electricity still saves against Electric Arc, and one weak to Fire still needs to be hit by Produce Flame. This would make is so high level golems can't be killed by an army of level 1 casters.
For example, on average a Quantium Golem can be killed by 7 level 1 Concordant Choirs, which can be cast 3 times per round. Just hire 5 level 1 Sorcerers and you got 135d10 damage in one round.
To some extent I think magic immunity is just kind of... not great and causes more problems than it solves.
Mechanically it's annoying, and basically just means if you're the wrong type of caster you don't get to participate in a fight anymore, which... is just not very fun or interesting?
It also creates rules headaches in how vague it is, in the nonsensical interactions that exist depending on how you interpret immunity, and has some versimilitude issues for a lot of players based on the way it recontexualizes how magic works in the entire setting in a way nothing else does.
I would personally prefer they golems just be immune to most spells rather than getting huge save bonuses or treating their degrees of success as one higher. Having a creature have a hard immunity is less frustrating than a de facto immunity, IMO. What I like about golems is they are essentially puzzle encounters. You can mash face with them, but that's almost always the worst way to fight them. They are usually programmed to only guard one area, which means if you don't have the right magic for the job you can leave and come back with it. Even if that involves hiring an army of level casters.
To some extent I think magic immunity is just kind of... not great and causes more problems than it solves.Well... Magic immunity was not invented to solve problems, it was invented to create them. And it really does. The question is whether we need these specific problems very much and in what form exactly.
And it's a problem that even has some analogue for melee PCs - big physical resistances or incorporeality.
Physical resistance is more like getting better at saving throws though. You can still use your regular tools, just not as well. I'd say a better analogy would be flying ranged enemies against melee PCs.