First Level Fine Tuning

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm in the process of finally setting up that dwelf flame oracle I keep talking about here on these forums, and I'm hitting what may be the second to last snag: picking his final ability boost (the last one is finally deciding what his first name will be, his last name, "Oreflame" was decided a while ago).

He has all the Strength, Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma I can muster at character creation, and I'm debating whether to put the final free boost in Dexterity, allowing me to get the most out of splint mail later down the line, or Intelligence so I can speak Elven, reflecting the bilingual household he grew up in.

The actual MECHANICAL benefit to either choice is negligible, I know full plate is superior due to the Bulwark trait and thus encourages a base Dexterity of 10 if you qualify for heavy armor (which this character will after taking Champion Dedication at second level), but I like splint mail's AESTHETIC more. I had the idea of him making his own armor by taking an elven suit of chain and enhancing it with dwarven-styled plates to create a hybrid set that captures the aesthetic of his dwarven and elven Heritages at the same time.

What do you fine folks think? I understand this is splitting hairs at this point, but I still kind of don't trust my own sense of taste as to what's "good" for this character after major mechanics are dealt with...

[Sanityfaerie]

You get four free boosts. If you haven't assigned all four of your boosts yet, then you don't have "all the Strength, Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma I can muster at character creation".

I feel like I'm missing something.

[HumbleGamer]

So, if I got this right, you are going to start with:

CON, WIS, FREE and a -2 CHAR ( or Alternative with 2 free boost )

Being a flame oracle, mechanically speaking, your priorities should imo be:

1) Hitting 18 CHAR by lvl 1 ( flaws ).
2) Hitting +4 dex by lvl 13 or mighty bulwark ( to use evasion at its top ).
3) Have a generous amount of WIS because it's going to be your main save.
4) Being able to move fast, to be within 30 feet from the enemies.

I think the best you can do is go with

10 STR
14 DEX ( by lvl 10 it would be 18 )
14 CON
10 INT
12 WIS
18 CHA

Alternatively, if you want to go with a full plate, you'll have to:

- Start with:

16 STR
10 DEX ( By lvl 10 you'll get Mighty bulwark )
12 CON
10 INT
12 WIS
18 CHA

- Getting Unburdened Iron by lvl 5 ( when you hit 18 STR ) or sooner
- Getting light/medium armor proficiency
- Get Sentinel or Champion dedication

I think they are both valid depends what you are going to play, but the latter requires way more feats and gives you less constitution/hp.

As for the speed, the classic fleet + wand of longstrider should cover up regardless your choice.

ps: If you really want to go with a splintmail... it's gonna be kinda hard... would be easier to go with the first build and get a breastplate ( Which is imo more similar to a splint mail than a fullplate ).

You'll need by lvl 1 Unburdened Iron as ancestry feat, and by lvl 2 sentinel archetype.

But I am not a full plate spellcasters lover, so there may be a better way to solve things up.

[Ascalaphus]

I think full plate is the easy way to build, but splint mail isn't that bad. With my one-hand fighter I went splint mail because I actually intended to be decent at using a light hammer both in melee and ranged, so I was going to take Dex anyway.

I've also had one really aggravating combat with my other (dex 10, full plate) fighter against NPC rogues with whips who of course had NPC-high Athletics so they kept tripping me easily. Bulwark doesn't help against that.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

You get four free boosts. If you haven't assigned all four of your boosts yet, then you don't have "all the Strength, Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma I can muster at character creation".

I feel like I'm missing something.

Okay, so I'd start by using the new Ability selection method: First boosting STR and CHA. Then the Haunting Vision background makes you pick CON or WIS and a free boost, I chose CON and CHA again. Then CHA comes from Oracle, giving me 12 STR, 10 DEX, 12 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA. My understanding was a 16 CHA was acceptable for an Oracle for things like Battle Oracle or a non-Battle Oracle doing adding something like Champion like I plan to do. So I then plug 1 boost into STR, CON and WIS so I wind up with 14 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 12 WIS and 16 CHA, with one left that I'm uncertain of where to put. Just enough to qualify for Champion Dedication at second level.

It sounds like you're suggesting I put that final one in CHA for an 18 and thus have neither splint mail or the Elven language...

HumbleGamer wrote:

You'll need by lvl 1 Unburdened Iron as ancestry feat, and by lvl 2 sentinel archetype.

I was planning on taking Elven Weapon Proficiency at first level so I can use longswords, unfortunately...

[Taja the Barbarian]

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

Sanityfaerie wrote:

You get four free boosts. If you haven't assigned all four of your boosts yet, then you don't have "all the Strength, Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma I can muster at character creation".

I feel like I'm missing something.

Okay, so I'd start by using the new Ability selection method: First boosting STR and CHA. Then the Haunting Vision background makes you pick CON or WIS and a free boost, I chose CON and CHA again. Then CHA comes from Oracle, giving me 12 STR, 10 DEX, 12 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA. My understanding was a 16 CHA was acceptable for an Oracle for things like Battle Oracle or a non-Battle Oracle doing adding something like Champion like I plan to do. So I then plug 1 boost into STR, CON and WIS so I wind up with 14 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 12 WIS and 16 CHA, with one left that I'm uncertain of where to put. Just enough to qualify for Champion Dedication at second level.

It sounds like you're suggesting I put that final one in CHA for an 18 and thus have neither splint mail or the Elven language...

HumbleGamer wrote:

You'll need by lvl 1 Unburdened Iron as ancestry feat, and by lvl 2 sentinel archetype.

I was planning on taking Elven Weapon Proficiency at first level so I can use longswords, unfortunately...

While a 16 is acceptable, an 18 Cha is certainly preferred over a 'negligible' bonus elsewhere...

[HumbleGamer]

Wait, is that a flame Oracle or a battle Oracle?

If battle Oracle i think you "might" forgo charisma, while if it Is a flame one charisma will Be needed to hit and spellcaster DC.

Battle Oracle focus spells doesn't rely on spell casting DC( you are going to hit moderate curse through call to arms before the combat starts and), though they can be pure spellcasters since their class DC is the same as any other oracle.

But in the end I think I'd probably follow Taja's advice too.

[Lia Wynn]

I think if splint mail fits the concept and character vision better, then use splint mail. All too often, people forget the roleplaying aspects of an RPG in order to optimize the numbers, but I think the RP aspect matters more.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

HumbleGamer wrote:

Wait, is that a flame Oracle or a battle Oracle?

If battle Oracle i think you "might" forgo charisma, while if it Is a flame one charisma will Be needed to hit and spellcaster DC.

Battle Oracle focus spells doesn't rely on spell casting DC( you are going to hit moderate curse through call to arms before the combat starts and), though they can be pure spellcasters since their class DC is the same as any other oracle.

But in the end I think I'd probably follow Taja's advice too.

I'm trying to break the Oracle class' pigeonholed nature. I want to set things on fire with the stolen power of Dahak channeled through the creative influences of Yuelral and Torag, AND hit things with a sword sometimes!

Lia Wynn wrote:

I think if splint mail fits the concept and character vision better, then use splint mail. All too often, people forget the roleplaying aspects of an RPG in order to optimize the numbers, but I think the RP aspect matters more.

That's reassuring. Yes, the armor aesthetic I was interested in was more like this or this than this or these. NOT THAT THEY'RE BAD! They're just not the aesthetic I wanted for this character...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well now this has ALL gotta go out the window until the Remaster comes out and I see what changes they made to the Oracle and Champion classes!

[Lia Wynn]

No, it doesn't.

First, as Paizo said, in bold, over and over, the Remaster is backward compatible. It's the same game with tweaks.

Second, it looks like both of them are being released in Player Core 2, next summer. If you need to make changes, then you can, sure, but why wait, especially as it's all backward compatible.

[Claxon]

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

Well now this has ALL gotta go out the window until the Remaster comes out and I see what changes they made to the Oracle and Champion classes!

Probably very little to be honest, outside of whatever changes are being made to alignment and how that will impact whatever they call the various Champion "specialties" I expect the individual abilities to remain largely the same except for errata level changes. The basic outline of the classes will be the same.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm just very worried that one of the changes coming to the Remaster is a nerf of the Champion's multiclass archetype. As it stands, this character is dependent on that to gish without being a Battle Oracle, so any impact on its ability to help caster classes tank will likely be detrimental to their overall effectiveness. Same if the revisions to Oracle double-down on making Mysteries more tightly marry you to specific playstyles, meaning trying to play a Flames Oracle like a gish becomes even MORE of a bad idea.

This, more than anything, is what in the incoming Remaster scares me: they'll make decisions that overall will probably be a good thing for the long-term health of the game, but which will make it harder for me to make characters who go against the grain of how their classes are meant to be played. I don't WANT to have to play a Battle Oracle to gish as an Oracle, it's too obvious!

I understand why a lot of the changes that are made are being made and I think overall the Remaster is good! I'm excited for it! But until I get a clearer picture of just what changes are coming to the classes I'm most interested in, I'm going to be worried as well, because I'm kind of neurotic.

[nicholas storm]

To build a STR based caster, you want full plate because of bulwark. Otherwise, your reflex saves will be bad. You will want to do boosts to STR CON WIS CHA.

To go full plate, you have two options - sentinel or champion. Sentinel has the advantage of auto scaling proficiency (champion requires you to take a L14 feat diverse armor) and opens up mighty bulwark which gives +4 bonus to all reflex saves instead of +3 to only damage spells.

Best path for sentinel is human race to start with armor proficiency through versatile heritage or general feat. If you stay with dwarf, you would need to take armor proficiency at L3, sentinel at L4. If you go with this plan, start with

S16 D12 C12 I10 W10 CH18. Don't play an oracle without 18CHA. Problem with staying with dwarf is L4 feat cost could be used for diverse access. If you are human, you use sentinel as L2 feat.

It's much easier to build a DEX based caster than a STR caster. If you want to build a STR based caster, expect to give up on some role play options such as what race you start as.

[Lia Wynn]

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

I'm just very worried that one of the changes coming to the Remaster is a nerf of the Champion's multiclass archetype. As it stands, this character is dependent on that to gish without being a Battle Oracle, so any impact on its ability to help caster classes tank will likely be detrimental to their overall effectiveness. Same if the revisions to Oracle double-down on making Mysteries more tightly marry you to specific playstyles, meaning trying to play a Flames Oracle like a gish becomes even MORE of a bad idea.

This, more than anything, is what in the incoming Remaster scares me: they'll make decisions that overall will probably be a good thing for the long-term health of the game, but which will make it harder for me to make characters who go against the grain of how their classes are meant to be played. I don't WANT to have to play a Battle Oracle to gish as an Oracle, it's too obvious!

I understand why a lot of the changes that are made are being made and I think overall the Remaster is good! I'm excited for it! But until I get a clearer picture of just what changes are coming to the classes I'm most interested in, I'm going to be worried as well, because I'm kind of neurotic.

While your reasons do make a lot of sense, you can still play the character you have in mind after the Remastered books come out. Nothing prevents your table, or any table, from keeping in current PF2e elements that you like.

There's nothing that has been said in any of the interviews by Paizo to indicate that the current 'play what you like' design philosophy is changing in any way. They've also said that Remastered classes may have some changes, but they will still play like the current versions.

For example, Erik Mona verified Rogues get Martial Weapons and Wizards get Simple Weapons in Remastered. A change, yes, but they're still rogues and wizards.

So, if you have a game coming soon and want to play this character, and it seems to me that it's an interesting concept, do it. Next July, when Core 2 comes out, you and your GM can decide if you want to adjust it for Core 2, or just play it as is.

[glass]

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

I'm just very worried that one of the changes coming to the Remaster is a nerf of the Champion's multiclass archetype. As it stands, this character is dependent on that to gish without being a Battle Oracle, so any impact on its ability to help caster classes tank will likely be detrimental to their overall effectiveness. Same if the revisions to Oracle double-down on making Mysteries more tightly marry you to specific playstyles, meaning trying to play a Flames Oracle like a gish becomes even MORE of a bad idea.

Talk to your GM about how they are going to approach the Remixed versions of classes.

For me I will almost certainly continue allow both versions, and even if there are cases where I don't, existing character reliant on the old version will be grandfathered in.

At the moment (and admittedly we do not know much yet), the Remixed versions of classes feel a lot like the Unchained versions of classes in PF1. And in my PF1 games I continue to allow both versions of most of the classes to this day (the only exceptions being cRogues, and cMonks without one of the stronger archetypes, who I now consider and NPC classes).