Eidolon Occult Transmutation
Source: Secrets of Magic pg. 63
Trigger: An enemy within 15 feet of you hits you with a Strike and deals damage to you.
Requirements: Your eidolon is within 15 feet of you.
Your eidolon instinctively flashes with ectoplasmic energy, allowing them to strike back against an enemy who dares to harm you. Your eidolon makes a melee unarmed Strike against the triggering enemy, even if that enemy isn't within your eidolon's reach.
and
Source Secrets of Magic pg. 67
Your physical form can combine with that of your eidolon, granting benefits but limiting your capabilities. You Manifest your Eidolon, but instead of summoning it into an adjacent open space, you become it. While Manifested in this way, you use its statistics, and you can't act except to direct it to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it. Since you can't act, you can't Cast Spells, activate or benefit from magic items that normally benefit you and not your eidolon, perform actions that have the tandem trait, or use other abilities that require you, and not the eidolon, to act. Your can't be separately targeted while you are melded into it. When you reach 0 HP, your eidolon unmanifests, leaving your body behind, unconscious and dying.
Question: Can your Eidolon use Dutiful Retaliation while you are melded? Thus striking back when the Summoner ie the Eidolon is hit.
I'm thinking yes.
I think it's a GM call.
The ability is clearly not written with Meld Into Eidolon in mind and I can see a GM objecting or accepting it without issue.
>Trigger: An enemy within 15 feet of you hits you with a Strike and deals damage to you.
You are the eidolon. You are there. The Meld with Eidolon power makes that clear.
>Your (sic) can't be separately targeted while you are melded into it.
So what. This is wrong on two counts:
1) Targeting is not required. Just being hit with a Strike. This is a very clear straw man.2) Who says you aren't being targeted as well anyway?
You are there. You have restrictions in that only your Eidolon can act. Not that you aren't there.
In my opinion, Baarogue is right objecting and Gortle is right thinking it should work. Dutiful Retaliation hasn't been written with Meld into Eidolon in mind and as such the interaction requires a high level of interpretation. Chances are high that GMs will differ on that.
I think this is a miss interpretation of contradictory parts:
Your physical form can combine with that of your eidolon, granting benefits but limiting your capabilities. You Manifest your Eidolon, but instead of summoning it into an adjacent open space, you become it. While Manifested in this way, you use its statistics, and you can't act except to direct it to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it. Since you can't act, you can't Cast Spells, activate or benefit from magic items that normally benefit you and not your eidolon, perform actions that have the tandem trait, or use other abilities that require you, and not the eidolon, to act. Your can't be separately targeted while you are melded into it. When you reach 0 HP, your eidolon unmanifests, leaving your body behind, unconscious and dying.
If we consider all the entire effects you will ending unable to act once the text says that you can act except to Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it!
My understand is that isn't you that is fighting while you are melded but your Eidolon under your control. You was put outside the battlefield and is unable to be target so it isn't possible to benefit from Dutiful Retaliation at same time that is you Eidolon isn't in the control to able to act by its-own to use the reaction.
I think that allow Dutiful Retaliation in a melded form is way too force the to benefit you while you stay out of combat.
You attack with a weapon you're wielding or with an unarmed attack, targeting one creature within your reach (for a melee attack) or within range (for a ranged attack). Roll the attack roll for the weapon or unarmed attack you are using, and compare the result to the target creature's AC to determine the effect. See Attack Rolls and Damage for details on calculating your attack and damage rolls.
Yeah
The only creature present that can be targeted is the eidolon, as Meld Into Eidolon takes great pains to spell out in detail
No it doesnt. It goes out of its way to saw you are both there. Read it.
It says you become it, not you are hidden away and come back later.It syas you are melded into it that means you are still present. As in you are both present.
It doesn't says you can't be targeted. It says you can't be separately targeted.
My first post was literally just quoting the feats, no embellishment nor comments, which apparently is strawmanning now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah it is because trying to make a side issue as the key point is making a strawman. I could have just as easily said - that is just not relevant.
This is a rules question in a rules forum. You keep replying with an interpretation that ignores what the text says.
My interpretation isn't ignoring the rules. You're attempting to twist them in a way that gives your eidolon an unlimited range attack of opportunity on strikes against it. Like I said, run it however you want. From your first salty response it was clear you anticipated my reading and was just looking for allies, not sincere answers to your question
No I'm looking for reasons. I'm well aware of the implications. I need a reason beyond maybe that is too strong. All you are saying is you don't like it. That is not a reason.
My understand is that isn't you that is fighting while you are melded but your Eidolon under your control. You was put outside the battlefield and is unable to be target so it isn't possible to benefit from Dutiful Retaliation at same time that is you Eidolon isn't in the control to able to act by its-own to use the reaction.
That is fine as an explanation. But do you have some reason as to why that explanation is correct.
I gave you the reasons, and I'm not the only one who read it that way so I don't believe my interpretation is unfounded. YOU were so prepared for such an argument that you cried fallacy at mere quotes of the rules, and your argument depends entirely on tricky wordplay. This is a rules forum, so we're going to disagree sometimes. Don't get so mad about it or you'll find fewer people willing to risk answering your future "questions"
No I'm not mad. You are projecting your feelings. I don't care about how you feel. I'm after a rules reason.
You have yet to provide sufficient support for your interpretation. So far I am hearing:
1) you think it works that way
2) the reading I can see in the rules is too strong
Your only attempt at evidence is a Strike targets one creature. Which is fine but this is clearly a special cojoined creature so that line of reasoning is not enough here. Both creatures are present in the one body.
You have told a story. Other people like it. Ok. But that is not what the rules say. Why is your story true? Please give me some evidence to believe you. I am looking for that evidence. I want people to inform me. That is why I am posting the question. What am I missing?
That is fine as an explanation. But do you have some reason as to why that explanation is correct.My understand is that isn't you that is fighting while you are melded but your Eidolon under your control. You was put outside the battlefield and is unable to be target so it isn't possible to benefit from Dutiful Retaliation at same time that is you Eidolon isn't in the control to able to act by its-own to use the reaction.
It's because otherwise things get too confusing to work.
Let's break the rule down into short statements here:
1 - You Manifest your Eidolon, but instead of summoning it into an adjacent open space, you become it.
So based in this statement you are not really manifesting your Eidolon you are turning yourself into Eidolon form.
2 - While Manifested in this way, you use its statistics
OK, I have my Eidolon statistics. No problem at all
3 - and you can't act except to direct it to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it.
Wait. The first problem. If I'm now my Eidolon (due the first statement) but I can't act do anything unless unmanifest so I'm can't even fight because it's not my Eidolon into the field it's myself in some kind of my Eidolon form and I can't act!
4 - Since you can't act, you can't Cast Spells, activate or benefit from magic items that normally benefit you and not your eidolon, perform actions that have the tandem trait, or use other abilities that require you, and not the eidolon, to act.
Well If is myself in some kind of Eidolon form and I can't act there's no reason for such explanation that I can't Cast Spells, activate itens thet benefit me. Because I can't act after all. Same for the rest of the statement.
Now let's consider that "you become it" it's just a way to say that I'm merged into my Eidolon an now my Eidolon is into the field and still in control. Now everything makes sense. My Eidolon can act normally but I don't because I'm now fused into my Eidolon and I can only watch (and command because I can still communicate with my Eidolon) while my Eidolon acts.
So when someone is attacking my Eidolon it isn't atacting myself directly.
That's my explanation why I believe that's the right way to interpret it.