Confused Condition vs Confusion Spell

[pad300]

OK, this just came up in a game (courtesy of symbol of insanity),so, I'm asking for clarity. Abolomentor failed his save vs the symbol. He was grappled by Ardan (who then had to break off to fight a Shining Child. Is he locked into attacking Ardan, or does he start rolling again every turn?

Gameplay here, if you need it.

1) Symbol of Insanity: "This spell functions like symbol of death, except that all creatures within the radius of the symbol of insanity instead become permanently insane (as the insanity spell)."
2) Insanity: "The affected creature suffers from a continuous confusion effect, as the spell."
3) Confusion: see below

Foxy Quickpaw wrote:

@Ardan

... If a confused creature is attacked, it attacks the creature that last attacked it until that creature is dead or out of sight.

I read that as if you have to hide from Abomentolor first, before he stops attacking you. Am I mistaken?

I was reading the confusion spell, which doesn't have that language.

confusion Spell wrote:

"This spell causes confusion in the targets, making them unable to determine their actions. Roll on the following table at the start of each subject's turn each round to see what it does in that round.

d% Behavior
01-25 Act normally
26-50 Do nothing but babble incoherently
51-75 Deal 1d8 points of damage + Str modifier to self with item in hand
76-100 Attack nearest creature (for this purpose, a familiar counts as part of the subject's self)

A confused character who can't carry out the indicated action does nothing but babble incoherently. Attackers are not at any special advantage when attacking a confused character. Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes. Note that a confused character will not make attacks of opportunity against any creature that it is not already devoted to attacking (either because of its most recent action or because it has just been attacked).

You're reading from the

confused condition (scroll down), which does...

Confused Condition wrote:

Confused: A confused creature is mentally befuddled and cannot act normally. A confused creature cannot tell the difference between ally and foe, treating all creatures as enemies. Allies wishing to cast a beneficial spell that requires a touch on a confused creature must succeed on a melee touch attack. If a confused creature is attacked, it attacks the creature that last attacked it until that creature is dead or out of sight.

Roll on the following table at the beginning of each confused subject’s turn each round to see what the subject does in that round.
d% Behavior
01-25 Act normally.
26-50 Do nothing but babble incoherently.
51-75 Deal 1d8 points of damage + Str modifier to self with item in hand.
76-100 Attack nearest creature (for this purpose, a familiar counts as part of the subject's self).
A confused creature who can’t carry out the indicated action does nothing but babble incoherently. Attackers are not at any special advantage when attacking a confused creature. Any confused creature who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes. Note that a confused creature will not make attacks of opportunity against anything that it is not already devoted to attacking (either because of its most recent action or because it has just been attacked).

[Azothath]

So there's a question of identifying a spell like Symbol of Insanity to know what is going on.
Secondly, did someone make a Know(Plns) to know it is a Shining Child?
I don't see either in your chat.

as you are a Player I'm moving things behind a spoiler.

GMs eyes only:

Symbol of Insanity:E8
Insanity:E7 The affected creature suffers from a continuous confusion effect, as the spell. this means see confusion spell for effect.
Confusion:E4

Character B failed vs Symbol of Insanity. Makes a roll for 1 of 4 effects and does that. Sadly it is permanent -> time to see a spellcaster.
Character R makes his save and then grapples character B (we suppose) in an attempt to restrain him and does no damage. Grapple does not force B to drop anything in hand although R is at -4 without two hands free. R seems to know what the spell is and should have disarmed B if he was wielding a weapon. R could maintain the Grapple on B.

Next round
B will attack R once as a std actn as a CM attempt IS an attack even if the attacker didn't do any damage or R maintains the grapple. The GM could force a full attack but likely B may have to move or may not have a weapon in hand and I haven't seen a GM force that in many years. B's turn ends.
R does whatever.

Next round
B rolls to see what he does if R or the BBEG did not attack him in the previous round. In the past confused creatures would "lock onto" an attacker and follow up. Given that there's a roll every round GMs should enforce a round by round behavior as the affected creature is a nutter and cannot tell friend from foe.

hopefully that clarifies some things
I did not involve the BBEG as that will complicate things.
=== end spoiler ===

=== Advice ===
when things go sideways in a hostile situation try to tactically retreat and regroup if you don't have a spellcaster to identify and fix the problem that round. Some 'cures' take 3 rounds or a potion/scroll needs to be found and given/cast to the patient. A Wand of Obscuring mist, Wand of Vanish, etc can prove very handy to cover a retreat.
It's better to move and be attacked once than suffer a full attack. See Fighting Defensively and Full Defense. R will soon know how to get B to follow him.

[zza ni]

- I'm not talking about the specific encounter but general confusion here.

the way i see it confused creatures that are attacked, attack the offender on their next turn only (unless he keep on attacking them each turn). and turns after that they roll to see what they do.

the loop happen when you have more then one confused person and one of them attack the other (usually because he rolled on the table to do so). this then loop around for them attacking each other on their turns until one of them stops (or is stopped) or the confusion state end.

[Diego Rossi]

1) Note that a confused creature isn't limited to physical attacks. It can use any attack it has, be it a spell, a magic item, or a supernatural ability.

2) As I read it the Confusion spell and derivates apply the Confused condition.
Look Confusion, Lesser. It says: "This spell causes a single creature to become confused for 1 round."

It doesn't refer to the Confusion spell, but it speaks of the condition.

I don't think the developers wanted two different kinds of confusion (it would add confusion to the game), they simply put an easy-to-reference description in the spells and had the condition as a more complete reference.

3) @Azothath I fail to see why the confused creature would limit itself in its attacks. It is incapable to discern friends from foes or make tactical plains. It will use the more damaging attack in the short run, without any consideration about keeping something in reserve or protecting itself.

[pad300]

The question I am asking here, is does the text of of the confusion spell (as inherited from Symbol of Insanity>Insanity>Confusion), provide a different effect than the confused condition (which can be gotten other ways, for example an Aoandon's Touch of Madness)...

[Azothath]

pad300 wrote:

The question I am asking here, is does the text of of the confusion spell (as inherited from Symbol of Insanity>Insanity>Confusion), provide a different effect than the confused condition (which can be gotten other ways, for example an Aoandon's Touch of Madness)...

The spells reference one another, not the condition. However it is standard practice to reference the Condition or monster ability in an effort to seek clarity. {Regeneration is a prime example of mixed effects}

In my game experience I have not seen or personally experienced a difference in the implementation of Confusion. Both call for an attack and how THAT is interpreted is the variable. Naturally GMs give higher level spells more leeway.

[pad300]

The issue is not if you should use peak efficiency attacks; I'd leave that at table variation myself. The issue is the subject locked into counter attacking mode until the confusion ends, or just for the round after the subject is attacked?

[Kasoh]

pad300 wrote:

The issue is not if you should use peak efficiency attacks; I'd leave that at table variation myself. The issue is the subject locked into counter attacking mode until the confusion ends, or just for the round after the subject is attacked?

At our tables, the attack/counter attack continues until one of the targets is dead or something else attacks the confused creature and takes its aggro, or it is otherwise prevented from attacking the previous target.

[Chell Raighn]

I’d say its a bit of both really… they attack automatically on the following round after being attacked without question… on all subsequent rounds they roll but remain hostile towards their attacker until attacked by a different source, their attacker is dead or out of sight, or the confusion effect ends (by any means). Any time confusion forces them to attack someone they will default to the last person to attack them.

I’m fairly certain the spell is supposed to follow the normal rules for the condition… since its a bit nonsensical for the spell to apply an effectively weaker version of the condition… since not only does the condition lock your target in for the long haul if you are attacked, it also prevents you from being targeted with beneficial touch spells unless your allies succeed on a touch attack… both of which are omitted from the spell text.

[Azothath]

pad300 wrote:

The issue is not if you should use peak efficiency attacks; I'd leave that at table variation myself. The issue is the subject locked into counter attacking mode until the confusion ends, or just for the round after the subject is attacked?

do you expect creatures that are insane to act in a rational and/or predictable manner? time for the GM to roll on a couple of charts